Political Maps of the Seven Kingdoms

[kompaya]

About them manderlys.

yall want them to have huge land territory, but i dont see that.

they have a port, city and a river mouth. If they were to have thrice as much land as the other lords aswell,i think theyd be displayed much more powerful. I think their land area was more accurate in version 1

[kompaya]

Will you put all the revised maps in one imgur page?

[Free Northman Reborn]

Well, Manderly has a dozen petty lords and a hundred landed knights scattered across his territory. In addition to any land that he directly rules himself.

One of his titles is Warden of the White Knife. And his men include river traders that ply their trade up and down the White Knife. We can reasonably assume his rule extends all along the White Knife river basin, up to say the point where it forks, that's a good 200 miles from White Harbor.

That marks his Western border. In the North, he appears to say that his lands border the Broken Branch river and the Sheepshead Hills. That gives him a good 200 mile wide northern border.

Let's say his rule extends 50 miles south of White harbor. That means his lands extend North-South for 250 miles, and East-West for 200 miles. That is a 50, 000 square mile territory. Or put differently, an area the size of England.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

One of his titles is Warden of the White Knife. .

His other titles include 'Knight of the Order of the Green Hand' and 'Lord Marshal of the Mander' and we both know how meaningless they are.

Creating empty titles for your Lordship is a Southern custom, the other Northern lords don't seem to be too bothered by it

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Glovers are lower rank, but Northern lower rank. Northern lower rank is Southern middle rank. Glover=Florent.

I don't think there is any comparison. The Reach is far richer and more populous than the North. The Florents can command 2,000 men, the Glovers come nowhere near that while Deepwood Motte fails to compare to Brightwater Keep.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

I question the demotion of the Glovers. The Glovers are specifically mentioned as former petty kings of Deepwood Motte, in contrast to a number of other current northern houses who were never kings. So they clearly have a very prominent origin.

The Westerlings are also former Petty Kings but that means little thousands of years later.

The Yews and Greenfields also have impressive origins from the time of heroes but they are now Knightly Houses. Some Houses have risen and many have fallen as new Houses have come into existence.

[kompaya]

Well, Manderly has a dozen petty lords and a hundred landed knights scattered across his territory. In addition to any land that he directly rules himself.

One of his titles is Warden of the White Knife. And his men include river traders that ply their trade up and down the White Knife. We can reasonably assume his rule extends all along the White Knife river basin, up to say the point where it forks, that's a good 200 miles from White Harbor.

That marks his Western border. In the North, he appears to say that his lands border the Broken Branch river and the Sheepshead Hills. That gives him a good 200 mile wide northern border.

Let's say his rule extends 50 miles south of White harbor. That means his lands extend North-South for 250 miles, and East-West for 200 miles. That is a 50, 000 square mile territory. Or put differently, an area the size of England.

great catch, can you show me where in the books that is?

[Colonel Green]

Regarding the Vale:

- This map is missing House Templeton, but we don't know where in the Vale Ninestars is.

- I think the Grafton lands are too large. We know that House Shett of Gull Tower, who used to rule Gulltown outright, is sworn to Runestone, and from GRRM's comments they may actually still be in the city or right beside it, which suggests that the Royce lands basically run right up to the city itself.

[Stannis's Lawyer]

Regarding the Vale:

- This map is missing House Templeton, but we don't know where in the Vale Ninestars is.

- I think the Grafton lands are too large. We know that House Shett of Gull Tower, who used to rule Gulltown outright, is sworn to Runestone, and from GRRM's comments they may actually still be in the city or right beside it, which suggests that the Royce lands basically run right up to the city itself.

The Templetons are knightly (the Knight of Ninestars). That means they aren't on the map.

[Free Northman Reborn]

His other titles include 'Knight of the Order of the Green Hand' and 'Lord Marshal of the Mander' and we both know how meaningless they are.

Creating empty titles for your Lordship is a Southern custom, the other Northern lords don't seem to be too bothered by it

While your post is entirely expected, and entirely consistent with your custom of denigrating anything Northern that does not conform to your rather low regard for the North and its place in the Westerosi hierarchy, this comment is particularly sad. It is sad because its focus on bias rather than critical thinking is so obvious.

The titles of Knight of the Order of the Green Hand and Lord Marshal of the Mander are clearly historical titles, from before the Manderlys' flight from the Reach, and are based on historical fact, given that we know they were one of the most powerful Houses in the Reach, that they were undoubtedly knights of the Order of the Green Hand and that the Mander itself was named after their House.

Furthermore, the fact that the power and influence associated with these titles have since been lost is clearly due to the Great Divide in their history, which is their Exodus to the North. It goes without saying that titles that date back to before this Great Event, are merely intended to retain the link to the ancient origins of their House and do not reflect their current status. In sharp contrast to this, any titles that date from AFTER their Exodus, are curently applicable. Given further that their prominence in the North has only grown rather than declined over the course of the last 1000 years, any argument that the title Warden of the White Knife has only historical relevance can quite easily be dismissed.

The Manderlys today are more powerful and more influential than they have ever been in the North. 1000 years ago they received the Wolf's Den. Today, they have a city of 50,000 people and rule the trade all the way up the White Knife.

It is patently obvious that the title Warden of the White Knife is very much applicable to them today, and not merely a relic of the past, as you tried to imply by linking it to their historical titles previously held in the Reach.

Really LittleDragon. This post did not do justice to your attempts to undermine the North.

[Free Northman Reborn]

I don't think there is any comparison. The Reach is far richer and more populous than the North. The Florents can command 2,000 men, the Glovers come nowhere near that while Deepwood Motte fails to compare to Brightwater Keep.

Ah. Another post founded on baseless claims. You in fact have no evidence for your estimate of the Glovers strength being lower than that of the Florents. In fact, 2000 men seems to be pretty much par for the course for the average Stark bannerman. Jeor Mormont says that even the least of the Stark bannermen can raise more men than the entire Watch. That does not give an upper limit for the least of the Stark bannermen, but it certainly gives a lower limit. Which is 1100 or thereabouts. It might as well be 1500, or even 2000. For the weakest Stark bannerman.

In any case, there is no indication that the Glovers are the weakest of the Stark bannermen at all. In the absence of further evidence, it is prudent to place them at the average level for a Stark bannerman. Which is at least around 2000 men. Easily the same level as the Florents.

As for the Reach being more populous, well, that is countered by the fact that each lord in the North rules a far larger territory than an equivalent lord in the Reach, thus drawing his men from a larger, if less densely populated, territtory, thus allowing the Glovers to match the strength of the Florents, unless there is proof to the contrary.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Really LittleDragon. This post did not do your attempts to undermine the North justice.

lol

I don't undermine the North, I just see them how GRRM has portrayed them in the books rather than this superpower nation with 30 odd thousand troops hiding somewhere.

edit:

You in fact have no evidence for your estimate of the Glovers strength being lower than that of the Florents. In fact, 2000 men seems to be pretty much par for the course for the average Stark bannerman.

Game of Thrones Robb amasses his army before he marches South. We are told of three different groupings of the North army just under 20k.

• Manderly meets Robb last at Moat Cailin with 1,500 men
• At Winterfell we hear that Karstark is the last of the Northern Lords meeting Robb there, the last arriving being Karstark
• The other 6,000 is collected from the Southern Houses such as the Dustins, Lockes, Ryswells and both Flint Houses.

Now in the 12,000 we know that 2,300 are from Karstark so that means the remaining 9,700 comes from the other Houses assembled

Now he could only watch, peering out through Maester Luwin's lens tube. The maester had taught him all the banners: the mailed fist of the Glovers, silver on scarlet; Lady Mormont's black bear; the hideous flayed man that went before Roose Bolton of the Dreadfort; a bull moose for the Hornwoods; a battle-axe for the Cerwyns; three sentinel trees for the Tallharts; and the fearsome sigil of House Umber, a roaring giant in shattered chains.

So say the Starks provided 2,500 and the Boltons and Umbers both provided around 2k each that leaves around 3k from the Hornwoods, Mormonts, Cerwyns, Tallharts, Glovers and possibly the Mountain Clans.

I really don't see how you get 2k from the Glovers.

[Free Northman Reborn]

lol

I don't undermine the North, I just see them how GRRM has portrayed them in the books rather than this superpower nation with 30 odd thousand troops hiding somewhere.

No you do not. You just think you do. The estimate of the Glovers strength being a case in point. You in fact have no evidence whatsoever for claiming them to be weaker than the Florents. It just suits your preference to do so.

[The hairy bear]

The Templetons are knightly (the Knight of Ninestars). That means they aren't on the map.

I don't see that's reason enough. As far as we know, a knightly house could be sworn directly to the Eyrie, and own huge lands in the other corner of the Vale.

[Stannis's Lawyer]

Boltons brought more than 2,000 men to Winterfell, unless hundreds of Bolton men miraculously appeared in the Riverlands.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

No you do not. You just think you do. The estimate of the Glovers strength being a case in point. You in fact have no evidence whatsoever for claiming them to be weaker than the Florents. It just suits your preference to do so.

Why does it suit my preference? I don't like the Florents any more than I like the Glovers, in fact, I was happy to see them lose Brightwater Keep.

We have a 12k number for the army at Wintefell, what numbers would you give to the Lords assembled there?

Boltons brought more than 2,000 men to Winterfell, unless hundreds of Bolton men miraculously appeared in the Riverlands.

I said 'around' 2k. I don't know how many men they supplied but I would guess between 2-3k.

[Free Northman Reborn]

lol

I don't undermine the North, I just see them how GRRM has portrayed them in the books rather than this superpower nation with 30 odd thousand troops hiding somewhere.

edit:

Game of Thrones Robb amasses his army before he marches South. We are told of three different groupings of the North army just under 20k.

• Manderly meets Robb last at Moat Cailin with 1,500 men
• At Winterfell we hear that Karstark is the last of the Northern Lords meeting Robb there, the last arriving being Karstark
• The other 6,000 is collected from the Southern Houses such as the Dustins, Lockes, Ryswells and both Flint Houses.

Now in the 12,000 we know that 2,300 are from Karstark so that means the remaining 9,700 comes from the other Houses assembled

So say the Starks provided 2,500 and the Boltons and Umbers both provided around 2k each that leaves around 3k from the Hornwoods, Mormonts, Cerwyns, Tallharts, Glovers and possibly the Mountain Clans.

I really don't see how you get 2k from the Glovers.

That 12000 figure at Winterfell makes no sense, and has never made sense. Here's why:

The Boltons brought at least 3000 men and the Karstarks brought 2300 men. That is already 5300 men. then you have the Starks themselves, who would have MORE men than the Boltons, given that their men had no distance to travel and the most time to be gathered. So at least 3000 from the Starks would give you 8300 men.

That means that all of the Hornwoods, Umbers, Mormonts, Cerwyns, Tallharts, Glovers and Mountain Clans brought only 3700 combined. That's less than 500 men each.

Which is utterly impossible, and contradicts Jeor Mormont's statement directly.. Clearly, the men sent to Winterfell made up a very small portion of the full strength of many houses. Hence this gathering cannot be used to support any assessment of the full strength of Houses.

There is no indication that the Karstarks are an anomaly for the North in terms of strength. They have a distant northerly location in thickly forested lands. And so far they have raised 2750 men. There is no reason to believe that the Umbers, Hornwoods, Glovers etc. cannot approach these numbers too.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

That 12000 figure at Winterfell makes no sense, and has never made sense. Here's why:

lol so now the author is wrong and Free Northmen is right.

I'm sorry that the North that GRRM has written does not match the version you have imagined.

The Boltons brought at least 3000 men and the Karstarks brought 2300 men.

We know the Karstarks brought 2,300. How do we know that Boltons brought at least 3,000? When the Northen army were at Moat Cailin the three towers were controlled by Stark, Karstark and Umber. Had Bolton more that many men he would have controlled a Tower.

[Dimples]

We know the Karstarks brought 2,300. How do we know that Boltons brought at least 3,000? When the Northen army were at Moat Cailin the three towers were controlled by Stark, Karstark and Umber. Had Bolton more that many men he would have controlled a Tower.

We know that Roose brought ~3,500 to the Red Wedding, and that the vast majority were Bolton men. A few were Karstarks, but given their losses at the Green Fork and Duskendale, there probably weren't significantly more than 500 of them.

[Free Northman Reborn]

lol so now the author is wrong and Free Northmen is right.

I'm sorry that the North that GRRM has written does not match the version you have imagined.

We know the Karstarks brought 2,300. How do we know that Boltons brought at least 3,000? When the Northen army were at Moat Cailin the three towers were controlled by Stark, Karstark and Umber. Had Bolton more that many men he would have controlled a Tower.

No I'm saying the Boltons are the most powerful House in the North after the Manderlys. They also had a far shorter distance to march than the Karstarks, making it much easier to bring a larger force of men. Going by your argument, even the Umbers - who had the furthest of all to march - had more men than the Boltons, which again does not make sense. Which points to the fact that Robb did not award towers to lords based on their comparative number of men.

Besides, the men brought to that gathering has no bearing on the total strength of a region. We see that the Mountain Clans at most brought 1000 men, yet they had more than 3000 extra men available when Stannis came calling.

Similarly the Manderlys sent 1500 men only, despite being the strongest House in the North.

Martin himself gave the Karstarks at least 2750 men to date. Nothing makes their region more powerful than any other comparative region in the North. Hence, it is only logical to assume that they are no outlier in terms of the strength of a Stark bannerman.