Political Maps of the Seven Kingdoms

[Dimples]

cant you read? The stony shore. No owners. Not tallhart or glover.

It's pretty clearly owned by the Starks, through one way or another.

[Stannis's Lawyer]

cant you read? The stony shore. No owners. Not tallhart or glover.

Yes, I can clearly read. And what I read tells me that the Stony Shore is Stark land.

[Moondancer]

I thought the Selmy family are also knighted family (landed knights) , and yet TWoIaF gives them a solid position in SL. The canon shifted a bit, I guess, in the meantime.

[Stannis's Lawyer]

I thought the Selmy family are also knighted family (landed knights) , and yet TWoIaF gives them a solid position in SL. The canon shifted a bit, I guess, in the meantime.

ADWD calls Arstan Selmy a Lord.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Why is it so hard for you to believe?

Because you have provided no evidence at all from the books. None.

They have large lands, rich in resources and vassals. In a society such as this, that means power.

The majority of Houses have Vassals sworn to them. Even poor Houses have Vassals to help manage their land.

The Glovers are one of the Starks principal bannermen,

So? In the same appendix the Westerlings are described as one of the Principle bannermen of the Lannisters and we know that they are both poor and lack men. The Baelishes as one of the principle Houses to the Arryns.

It has no bearing on how many men they can raise.

but they are also one that held many men back (to protect Sybelle).

Provide a quote from the series to prove this as I don't think this is ever stated in relation to the Glovers.

We know that Asha took Deppwood Motte easily and that she only had a 1,000 men.

They control an area three times the size of Bear Island. Bear Island fields 1100.

Where does it state that Bear Island can field 1,000?

We know that the Watch has fewer than a 1,000 men and that the Starks lordly vassals(note the Glovers and Tallharts are not Lords) can all match this.

They have a region more fertile and rich in resources then Bear Island. To think that they can't field 1500-2000 doesn't make sense.

Once again you have made this up. Where is it stated that the Glover lands are richer or more fertile in resources?

Numbers don't really mean anything, unless it is explicitly stated how many. In the grand scheme of things 2000 men for a northern lord is not much.

2,000 is not just a lot for a Northern Lord, but for Westeros in general. The vast majority of Lords would not be able to field 2,000 soldiers.

IF 2,000 wasn't much for a Northern Lord to field, then Jon would have said that his fathers Lordly bannermen could raise double what the watch can instead of the same. And once again the Glovers are not Lords.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

Because you have provided no evidence at all from the books. None.

The majority of Houses have Vassals sworn to them. Even poor Houses have Vassals to help manage their land.

So? In the same appendix the Westerlings are described as one of the Principle bannermen of the Lannisters and we know that they are both poor and lack men. The Baelishes as one of the principle Houses to the Arryns.

It has no bearing on how many men they can raise.

Provide a quote from the series to prove this as I don't think this is ever stated in relation to the Glovers.

We know that Asha took Deppwood Motte easily and that she only had a 1,000 men.

Where does it state that Bear Island can field 1,000?

We know that the Watch has fewer than a 1,000 men and that the Starks lordly vassals(note the Glovers and Tallharts are not Lords) can all match this.

Once again you have made this up. Where is it stated that the Glover lands are richer or more fertile in resources?

2,000 is not just a lot for a Northern Lord, but for Westeros in general. The vast majority of Lords would not be able to field 2,000 soldiers.

IF 2,000 wasn't much for a Northern Lord to field, then Jon would have said that his fathers Lordly bannermen could raise double what the watch can instead of the same. And once again the Glovers are not Lords.

Dimples, LittleDragon, Universal Sword Donor. Same person or whatever.

Its all common sense. Forests like the wolfswood are fertile, the tree types determine that.

The Glovers are still lords, they are referred to as such. Masterly is a rank. A knight can field 1000 (House Templeton), so to say that a house such as the Glovers (have you read Worlds?) can't raise 1000 men is stupid.

The Glovers are a masterly house, but still lords. Rank doesn't mean power.

I'm over it. You don't listen. I'm starting to believe it when people suggest you have a vendetta against the North.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Masterly is a rank. A knight can field 1000 (House Templeton), so to say that a house such as the Glovers (have you read Worlds?) can't raise 1000 men is stupid.

Wow!

This is some bizarre logic you are using, just because one House (Templeton) can raise over a 1,000 men does not mean that they all can.

Yes, I have read the World Book. Thousands of years ago the Glovers were Kings however, in the present day they are not.

[Dimples]

Dimples, LittleDragon, Universal Sword Donor. Same person or whatever.

Its all common sense. Forests like the wolfswood are fertile, the tree types determine that.

...That applies to Bear Island as well.

[Free Northman Reborn]

In the glossary to Book 1 the list of Stark "Lords Bannermen" includes both the Glovers and the Tallharts. So I think we can put to bed the ridiculous attempt to somehow exclude them from Jeor Mormonts assessment that even the weakest of the Stark Lords Bannermen can raise more than the entire Watch.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

In the glossary to Book 1 the list of Stark "Lords Bannermen" include both the Glovers and the Tallharts. So I think we can put to bed the ridiculous attempt to somehow exclude them from Jeor Mormonts assessment that even the weakest of the Stark Lords Bannermen can raise more than the entire Watch.

So?

In the same Glossary we get this about the Vale

The principal houses sworn to the Eyrie are Royce, Baelish, Egen, Waynwood, Hunter, Redfort, Corbray, Belmore, Melcolm, and Hersy.

The Baelishes are not Lords.

In the same glossary we get this about the Westerlands.

Principal houses sworn to Casterly Rock are Payne, Swyft, Marbrand, Lydden, Banefort, Lefford, Crakehall, Serrett, Broom, Clegane, Prester, and Westerling.

Both Swyft and Clegane are Knighty Houses and the Westerlings are one of the weakest Houses in the West.

It also labels this

The principal houses sworn to Dragonstone are Celtigar, Velaryon, Seaworth, Bar Emmon, and Sunglass.

Davos in the first book is nothing but a landed knight. What small lands he does have would be sworn to Storms End and not Dragonstone.

The Glossary in the first book is just a rough indicator of which Houses are loyal to who, it is not a power index of Houses rankings. Houses he has already wrote about get mentioned

[Stannis's Lawyer]

So?

In the same Glossary we get this about the Vale

The Baelishes are not Lords.

In the same glossary we get this about the Westerlands.

Both Swyft and Clegane are Knighty Houses and the Westerlings are one of the weakest Houses in the West.

It also labels this

Davos in the first book is nothing but a landed knight. What small lands he does have would be sworn to Storms End and not Dragonstone.

The Glossary in the first book is just a rough indicator of which Houses are loyal to who, it is not a power index of Houses rankings. Houses he has already wrote about get mentioned

You are twisting FNR's words. In AGOT the Glovers are called "Lords bannermen". Jeor uses the same phrase. The "principal Houses" list is irrelevant.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

You are twisting FNR's words. In AGOT the Glovers are called "Lords bannermen". Jeor uses the same phrase. The "principal Houses" list is irrelevant.

From another Appendix:

JON UMBER, called THE GREATJON, Lord of the Last Hearth, a captive at the Twins,

{CLEY CERWYN}, Lord of Cerwyn, killed at Winterfell,

ROOSE BOLTON, Lord of the Dreadfort,

RAMSAY BOLTON, his natural son, called THE BASTARD OF BOLTON, Lord of the Hornwood,

{RICKARD KARSTARK}, Lord of Karhold, beheaded by the Young Wolf for murdering prisoners,

WYMAN MANDERLY, Lord of White Harbor, vastly fat,

MAEGE MORMONT, Lady of Bear Island, the She-Bear,

HOWLAND REED, Lord of Greywater Watch, a crannogman,

GALBART GLOVER, Master of Deepwood Motte, unwed,

{SER HELMAN TALLHART}, Master of Torrhen's Square, slain at Duskendale,

Square,

RODRIK RYSWELL, Lord of the Rills,

BARBREY DUSTIN, his daughter, Lady of Barrowton, widow of Lord

LYESSA FLINT, Lady of Widow’s Watch,

ONDREW LOCKE, Lord of Oldcastle, an old man,

The Tallharts and Glovers are not Lords but Masters.

[Stannis's Lawyer]

From another Appendix:

The Tallharts and Glovers are not Lords but Masters.

Oh, you're right. Lady Dustin is not a Lord either! Dustins are not lord bannermen of the Starks!

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Oh, you're right. Lady Dustin is not a Lord either! Dustins are not lord bannermen of the Starks!

eh?

It quite clearly calls her Lady of Barrowton. Just so you know, female Lords are called Lady.

[Free Northman Reborn]

So? In the same Glossary we get this about the Vale The Baelishes are not Lords. In the same glossary we get this about the Westerlands. Both Swyft and Clegane are Knighty Houses and the Westerlings are one of the weakest Houses in the West. It also labels this Davos in the first book is nothing but a landed knight. What small lands he does have would be sworn to Storms End and not Dragonstone. The Glossary in the first book is just a rough indicator of which Houses are loyal to who, it is not a power index of Houses rankings. Houses he has already wrote about get mentioned

Sigh. Come now.

Jeor Mormont did not say that any of Tywin Lannister's or Stannis Baratheon's lords bannermen can raise more men than the entire Watch. So whether House Westerling or House Seaworth are principal bannerhouses is irrelevant.

Jeor Mormont said that any one of the Stark Lords Bannermen can do so. And that is why it is very relevant that the Glovers and Tallharts are part of this list.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Sigh. Come now.

Jeor Mormont did not say that any of Tywin Lannister's or Stannis Baratheon's lords bannermen can raise more men than the entire Watch. So whether House Westerling or House Seaworth are principal bannerhouses is irrelevant.

Jeor Mormont said that any one of the Stark Lords Bannermen can do so. And that is why it is very relevant that the Glovers and Tallharts are part of this list.

sigh

They are not Lords but Masters, look in the appendix. Or do you only pick and chose the information you want to suit your argument?

[Stannis's Lawyer]

sigh

They are not Lords but Masters, look in the appendix. Or do you only pick and chose the information you want to suit your argument?

The appendix does not say "Masters and Lords Bannermen" like it does for the Southron Houses. It says just "Lords Bannermen" and the head of the Masterly Houses are included. Hence the Glovers are one of the Lords Bannermen of the Starks.

[kompaya]

Hey?! When are the rest of the revised maps coming?

[Dimples]

Hey?! When are the rest of the revised maps coming?

When people ask nicely.

[Free Northman Reborn]

The appendix does not say "Masters and Lords Bannermen" like it does for the Southron Houses. It says just "Lords Bannermen" and the head of the Masterly Houses are included. Hence the Glovers are one of the Lords Bannermen of the Starks.

sigh They are not Lords but Masters, look in the appendix. Or do you only pick and chose the information you want to suit your argument?

I can only assume that you are being deliberately obtuse.

The Glossary titles the list as the Lords Bannermen of House Stark. Whether some on the list have the title Master or even Ser is irrelevant, as the collective noun used for them is Lords Bannermen. Clearly, obviously and undoubtedly, this is the collective group Jeor Mormont refers to as well.

There really is nothing to misunderstand here. You are simply refusing to concede the point.