Political Maps of the Seven Kingdoms

[Free Northman Reborn]

Clegane and Swyft have never been referred to as Lord. Galbart Glover has!

*laughs all the way to the bank*

Like seriously? You went through all the pages just to find a mention of House Glover to prove me wrong? om

That is not really the point. Even though Helman Talhart is never referred to as a lord, that doesn't change the fact that Martin includes him under the collective term "lords bannermen" of House Stark. Just like he includes the Templetons under the lords bannermen of House Arryn.

It is simply a term for the principle Houses sworn to the Lord Paramount in question, whether they are lords, or masters or just landed knights.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

That is not really the point. Even though Helman Talhart is never referred to as a lord, that doesn't change the fact that Martin includes him under the collective term "lords bannermen" of House Stark. Just like he includes the Templetons under the lords bannermen of House Arryn.

It is simply a term for the principle Houses sworn to the Lord Paramount in question, whether they are lords, or masters or just landed knights.

I know I know. Tallharts are certainly lords bannermen.

Cleganes and Swyfts are also directly sworn to the Lannisters.

I was just adding creedence. Galbart is a lords bannerman, as well as a lord.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Nonsense. He is referring to the same collective term that Martin uses. Martin wrote his statement, after all. Why would Jeor Mormont refer to Lords Bannermen in one way, and Martin refer to them differently?

Martin clearly uses the term "lords bannermen" to refer to the collective group of principle vassal Houses sworn to a Lord Paramount. This really isn't a matter worth debating. You are merely prolonging the discussion on this because you don't like the implications this obvious fact has for your broader argument.

You are being disingenuous, to say the least.

In the same appendix we have the Knighy houses Paege, Templeton, Dalt and Snatagar all listed in their respective regions "his bannermen, the Lords of..." section. He is including Knighty and Masterly Houses, he is not singling the North out.

GRRM has labeled them as less than a Lordly House. Before the war has broken out and the North has called its banners Ned is telling Cat to order Tallhart and Glover to supply men for Moat Cailin as they are his direct Vassals.

Even when you look at the math it makes little sense as Jeor claims that the minimum a Lord has is a 1,000 yet we know how many men were at Winterfell(12k) from how many Lords and we know that the Deepwood Mottle lands were left poorly defended.

In terms of numbers either the Starks can barely match the Karstarks for soldiers or the likes of the Glovers and Tallharts do not command over a 1,000 men.

At this point it is best to agree to disagree as neither of us will change the others mind and I have a football match to get ready for.

I respect your opinion and your obvious knowledge on the subject, I just disagree with it.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

In the same appendix we have the Knighy houses Paege, Templeton, Dalt and Snatagar all listed in their respective regions "his bannermen, the Lords of..." section. He is including Knighty and Masterly Houses, he is not singling the North out.

GRRM has labeled them as less than a Lordly House. Before the war has broken out and the North has called its banners Ned is telling Cat to order Tallhart and Glover to supply men for the Moat Cailin as they are his direct Vassals.

Even when you look at the math it makes little sense as Jeor claims that the minimum a Lord has is a 1,000 yet we know how many men were at Winterfell(12k) from how many Lords and we know that the Deepwood Mottle lands were left poorly defended.

In terms of numbers either the Starks can barely match the Karstarks for soldiers or the likes of the Glovers and Tallharts do not command over a 1,000 men.

At this point it is best to agree to disagree as neither of us will change the others mind and I have a football match to get ready for.

What makes little sense is that you don't seem to understand that most lords have held men back. Potential soldiers, but there is a harvest to prepare for, and lands to defend (not just a castle). So they most certainly can, both logistacally and logically. The numbers in the books are not the only men a lord can field, unless it is outright stated.

Good luck with your footy match!

[Lord Knightmare]

In the same appendix we have the Knighy houses Paege, Templeton, Dalt and Snatagar all listed in their respective regions "his bannermen, the Lords of..." section. He is including Knighty and Masterly Houses, he is not singling the North out.

GRRM has labeled them as less than a Lordly House. Before the war has broken out and the North has called its banners Ned is telling Cat to order Tallhart and Glover to supply men for Moat Cailin as they are his direct Vassals.

Even when you look at the math it makes little sense as Jeor claims that the minimum a Lord has is a 1,000 yet we know how many men were at Winterfell(12k) from how many Lords and we know that the Deepwood Mottle lands were left poorly defended.

In terms of numbers either the Starks can barely match the Karstarks for soldiers or the likes of the Glovers and Tallharts do not command over a 1,000 men.

At this point it is best to agree to disagree as neither of us will change the others mind and I have a football match to get ready for.

I respect your opinion and your obvious knowledge on the subject, I just disagree with it.

I seem to remember Ned taking men when he went south so Ned some of House Starks strength with him

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

Strange how the Weeping Tower turned into the Weeping Town, perhaps George or someone realised it was implausible that the Stormlands had no major towns or cities.

Also does anyone else think that the Stormlands seems to have too many major houses for its size?

[Free Northman Reborn]

Strange how the Weeping Tower turned into the Weeping Town, perhaps George or someone realised it was implausible that the Stormlands had no major towns or cities. Also does anyone else think that the Stormlands seems to have too many major houses for its size?

Well, it seems that the average Stormland House cannot raise as many men as the average Northern House. So where 2000 men may be about average for a northern House, 1000-1500 may be a lot for a Stormland House.

This has to be the case, considering that Martin himself implied that the Stormlands is the weakest mainland region after Dorne.

[Free Northman Reborn]

You've gotta remember, the stormlands that exists in current day Westeros, is smaller than the ones that existed in the pre Targ days, wyen the controled the crownlands, parts of the Riverlands, the Reach and all the way up to the neck. I think a lot of their power was lost after Aegon shrank their kingdom down to the eastern seaboard it is today. Also their quite a bit of forest and montain land. Not really great land for raising large amounts of men, or great cities like the 5 cities of Westeros.

Agreed. The current Stormland kingdom appears to max out at around 30k soldiers. Divide that by their number of lords bannermen, and you get a rough indication of the average strength of the Stormland Houses.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

For 30'000 there is roughyl 1875. Not bad.

For 35'00 we get roughly 2200. Seems a lot.

Although two must note that one of these are House Farring, a house from the Crownlands.

And the otehr is House Seaworth, with a grand total of what 7?

The lords Cafferen and Rogers can make up for their absence however, so the point still stands. When we add on Staedmon and Trant (both referred to as reasonable bannermen). The numbers are lowered to 1600 and 1900.

Whatever way, the total strength is the same.

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

What point are you actually making with this post?

Stannis said the Florents can raise 2000 men altogether. That's their full strength.

You don't seem to be disagreeing with the fact that any of Robb's bannermen commands more swords than the Watch.

As for the Glovers. I think you are really at the point of nitpicking if you try and exlude the Glovers from that list by claiming that their status as a Masterly House means they aren't one of Robb's lords bannermen. This while Gallbart Glover is constantly referred to as Lord Glover in-series.

When Robb's bannerlords are reffered to the Glovers are amongst them. As are the Tallharts, even though Helman Tallhart is only a Ser.

I go back to simple logic. The Karstarks from the far northeastern forests, have raised at least 2750 men to date. The Mountain Clans, from the far Northwestern Mountains, have raised around 4000 men.

There is no evidence that the Glovers, ruling a similar territory to the Karstarks, but only stretching further South, are not able to raise a similar ballpark figure. It might be revealed later that they can not, but until it is, any claim to that effect is baseless.

I wouldn't put too much credence in that particular Stannis quote, he clearly does not know the strength of every house in Westeros, and he isn't even aware of the existence of the northern mountain clans. The heiress to Dorne is wrong about her estimates of Dornish strength by as much as a factor of 3, all numbers we are given are estimates, there has never been a Domesday book in westeros and it would seem that no one has a good idea of the continent's military strength.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

I wouldn't put too much credence in that particular Stannis quote, he clearly does not know the strength of every house in Westeros, and he isn't even aware of the existence of the northern mountain clans. The heiress to Dorne is wrong about her estimates of Dornish strength by as much as a factor of 3, all numbers we are given are estimates, there has never been a Domesday book in westeros and it would seem that no one has a good idea of the continent's military strength.

While I agree with your point in general Stannis as the son-in-law of the Lord Florent would have a better understanding of the Florents then he would of Northern mountain clan numbers as well as the fact that the Forents were part of his army against the Iron Throne.

On Dragonstone after the Battle of Blackwater we are told that more than half of the remaining 1,500 are Florent men. Obviously there were Florent casualties at the Blackwater and we are even told how Tarly killed Florent men at Tumbleton to stop them joining Stannis.

There are even Florent men still at Brightwater Keep as Garlan Tyrell set off with half of the Tyrell strength at Kings Landing to take the settlement.

In the case of the Florents, their standing in the Reach and what we have been told in the books I figure around 2k is what they had at the start of the series give or take a hundred.

[Stannis's Lawyer]

You've gotta remember, the stormlands that exists in current day Westeros, is smaller than the ones that existed in the pre Targ days, wyen the controled the crownlands, parts of the Riverlands, the Reach and all the way up to the neck. I think a lot of their power was lost after Aegon shrank their kingdom down to the eastern seaboard it is today. Also their quite a bit of forest and montain land. Not really great land for raising large amounts of men, or great cities like the 5 cities of Westeros.

Aegon took Massey's Hook and the northern Kingswood. Nothing else.

[creganstark]

Aegon took Massey's Hook and the northern Kingswood. Nothing else.

Duskendale and Maidenpool were part of the Storm kingdom most of the time, as well as parts of the eastern Reach which the Gardeners only conquered shortly before Argilac's reign.

[Stannis's Lawyer]

Duskendale and Maidenpool were part of the Storm kingdom most of the time, as well as parts of the eastern Reach which the Gardeners only conquered shortly before Argilac's reign.

And? Duskendale and Maidenpool were part of Harren's empire and the eastern Reach was Gardener when Aegon came. Aegon took forests and some possibly fertile lands in MH. Nothing else.

[creganstark]

And? Duskendale and Maidenpool were part of Harren's empire and the eastern Reach was Gardener when Aegon came. Aegon took forests and some possibly fertile lands in MH. Nothing else.

You're right, but Duskendale, Maidenpool and the eastern Reach were only lost a generation before the conquest, so for most of their pre Targaryen history, the Stormlands were much more powerful than they were in Targaryen times.

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

I just realised, it doesn't make sense for Vypren and Ryger to have land on both sides of the Green Fork, there are no crossings and there doesn't appear to be a great deal of barges/rafts on the Green Fork, if a lord's lands were split by an impassable river then eventually someone would build a bridge so they can access all of their lands pore easily.

[Vikingkingq]

There are crossings - at the Ruby Ford. It's the reason Lord Harroway's Town exists.

[Dimples]

There are crossings - at the Ruby Ford. It's the reason Lord Harroway's Town exists.

So? The Ruby Ford is too far to be of use to the Rygers or Vyprens. And there aren't any crossings between there and the Twins.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

I really doubt that there isn't going to be a bridge for 100 miles.

Small enough for smallfolk and a lordly retinue, but not large enough for an army.

[Dimples]

I really doubt that there isn't going to be a bridge for 100 miles.

Small enough for smallfolk and a lordly retinue, but not large enough for an army.

That could be true, but it's just a guess.