Cannibal, Sheepstealer and Grey Ghost - non-Targaryen dragons?

[Maid So Fair]

Dude, the Targ's called for the Seeds to come and try to tame dragons and Nettles came forward, I am not bending anything. TWOIAF confirms she is a dragonseed.

My question to you is this; Do you have even one sentence from any of the literature that would suggest Nettles is not a 'dragonseed'? Is it because she has dark-skin? You think the Targs only sleep with white people? (obviously not true given her relationship with Dameon) What is it about her that makes you think she is not a seed?

If you have no answers to these questions, then you are the one bending evidence to fit your ideas, not me. I go by the books, and the books call her a 'dragonseed'.

No, the Blacks basically said - FREE DRAGONS! Come and get one, if you can! Ultimate risk for the ultimate reward! As AntZ just pointed out, they let plenty of people with no known Targ blood, including Nettles and the LC of the Kingsguard, give it a shot.

With Nettles, there's no evidence either way. Accepting an OPINION of a maester (who wasn't there and might not even have met the girl) based on some extremely spurious logic and zero actual evidence, as fact does not make it the truth no matter how many other maesters and people, including yourself, then repeat it.

[RumHam]

I find it unlikely that she would be revealed as a known dragonseed considering the measter is at pains to point out she has absolutely no known Valyrian features, and that her origin is a mystery. He wouldn't say that only to contradict himself in a latter volume/additional unpublished text.

I don't believe either of the maesters ever state that her origin is a mystery. You got a quote? Glydayn calls her a bastard or baseborn multiple times, which suggests he knows where she came from.

[Mithras]

I don't believe either of the maesters ever state that her origin is a mystery. You got a quote? Glydayn calls her a bastard or baseborn multiple times, which suggests he knows where she came from.

We getting around this same circular logic. Why should these maesters doubt that she is a dragonseed? Because they think that Targ blood is necessary to ride a dragon and Nettles certainly rode one.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

No, the Blacks basically said - FREE DRAGONS! Come and get one, if you can! Ultimate risk for the ultimate reward! As AntZ just pointed out, they let plenty of people with no known Targ blood, including Nettles and the LC of the Kingsguard, give it a shot.

With Nettles, there's no evidence either way. Accepting an OPINION of a maester (who wasn't there and might not even have met the girl) based on some extremely spurious logic and zero actual evidence, as fact does not make it the truth no matter how many other maesters and people, including yourself, then repeat it.

Ok first of all, the quote is; "Some came forward who were not seeds". Little different than what you said. Hardly conclusive, but I guess it is something to grasp onto when frantically trying to prove this pointless point.

And I will take the opinions of the author from the writing before I would take the opinion of any poster on this board to know the truth. And as RumHam just pointed out, Nettles parentage is known, it says specifically that she is baseborn/lowborn. Meaning they knew her parents were servants (or whatever).

You still have given zero evidence to show that she is not a 'seed'.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

We getting around this same circular logic. Why should these maesters doubt that she is a dragonseed? Because they think that Targ blood is necessary to ride a dragon and Nettles certainly rode one.

But you know better then the Maesters right? Based on what?

[Mithras]

But you know better then the Maesters right? Based on what?

Based on analytical thinking. Did you remember the part where Munkun messed up the history and how Tyrion proved that he was wrong?

[SirCharles of HouseBarkley]

I dont think one of the Targaryen servants would be a member of one of the other 40 Dragonlord families from Valyria. These people are basically Valyrain Royalty, doubtful that one of them would end up a servant for a rival house.

I meant for the servants to be a small possibility. I wasn't trying to imply that the nobility would be a servant, merely someone with their blood. Perhaps an unacknowledged bastard.

I was more getting at the possibility of a second son or something of that sort of another family being in the Targ entourage. It would be like the Blackfish. He was second inline for Riverrun and wound up the Arryns. He couldn't get along with Hosted so he left to serve with Lysa.

The better possibility was the in-law through a lesser Targ branch that came with the main branch. The rstinger or the in-law could have been a rider of or brought eggs of amother dragon line.

[RumHam]

We getting around this same circular logic. Why should these maesters doubt that she is a dragonseed? Because they think that Targ blood is necessary to ride a dragon and Nettles certainly rode one.

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that it seems likely Glydayn actually knows who her parents are and it was just edited out for space. I don't think he would keep calling her a bastard girl if he didn't know she was one.

[Maid So Fair]

I don't believe either of the maesters ever state that her origin is a mystery. You got a quote? Glydayn calls her a bastard or baseborn multiple times, which suggests he knows where she came from.

I meant in the general sense of nothing being known of her origins at all. Some others seem to be Velaryon bastards, and with the other two we at least have some history like occupation etc. We also get, for some reason, detailed description of her appearance, which doesn't happen with the other seeds.

A dragonseed is a bastard by definition (not being a full-blood Targaryen) and she obviously isn't a noble otherwise she and everybody else would know her exact lineage so she must be baseborn.

Ok first of all, the quote is; "Some came forward who were not seeds". Little different than what you said. Hardly conclusive, but I guess it is something to grasp onto when frantically trying to prove this pointless point.

And I will take the opinions of the author from the writing before I would take the opinion of any poster on this board to know the truth. And as RumHam just pointed out, Nettles parentage is known, it says specifically that she is baseborn/lowborn. Meaning they knew her parents were servants (or whatever).

You still have given zero evidence to show that she is not a 'seed'.

The actual quote is that 'Not all those who came forward were seeds, nor even the sons or grandsons of seeds, A score of the queen's own guard offered themselves...along with squires, scullions, sailors, men-at-arms, mummers and two maids.' It was very much a free for all.

Very well. Since Nettles is obviously a seed, you shouldn't have any problems pointing out the Targ/Velaryon that she is descended from.

[AtomixIGN]

The Targaryans weren't the first house from Valyria to come to Westeroes or Dragonstone. The Cannibal could have been a left over from some other Dragonlord from well before the Doom, or not. Nettles could be descended from some Valyrian's Summer Islander Slave named Net No who was born in Valyria before the doom and won the heart of her owner who freed and married her and had 10 kids with her - one of whom, a son - grew up to be the first mate on a trading vessel who brought cargo across the narrow sea and ended up impregnating a Celtigar scullery maid on a back and forth.

or not.

[RumHam]

I meant in the general sense of nothing being known of her origins at all. Some others seem to be Velaryon bastards, and with the other two we at least have some history like occupation etc. We also get, for some reason, detailed description of her appearance, which doesn't happen with the other seeds.

You said Glydayn would be contradicting himself if the full version of The Princess and the Queen explained Nettle's origins. He wouldn't be contradicting himself because he never said that her origins were a mystery.

A dragonseed is a bastard by definition

I'm not totally clear on this. My impression was that "dragonseeds" were non-Targaryen people with Targaryen blood who exist because of the first night bullshit. In other words the grandson of a Targaryen bastard would still be a dragonseed, even if he himself was not a bastard. Hugh Hardhammer for instance happens to be a bastard, but his father is not a Targaryen he's just a blacksmith.

(not being a full-blood Targaryen)

Does not make one a bastard. Rhaenyra had an Arryn mother. Also Daemon Blackfyre was a full blooded Targaryen bastard.

[Maid So Fair]

You said Glydayn would be contradicting himself if the full version of The Princess and the Queen explained Nettle's origins. He wouldn't be contradicting himself because he never said that her origins were a mystery.

I'm not totally clear on this. My impression was that "dragonseeds" were non-Targaryen people with Targaryen blood who exist because of the first night bullshit. In other words the grandson of a Targaryen bastard would still be a dragonseed, even if he himself was not a bastard. Hugh Hardhammer for instance happens to be a bastard, but his father is not a Targaryen he's just a blacksmith.

Does not make one a bastard. Rhaenyra had an Arryn mother. Also Daemon Blackfyre was a full blooded Targaryen bastard.

You are right that merely saying that her parents were, IDK, some random fishermen or generally no one of consequence wouldn't necessarily be a contradiction, but that just moves the uncertainty a few generations back without getting to the crux of the matter (where does the dragon blood come from?). Saying she was a known or speculated dragonseed, would be a contradiction IMHO because then why go into a detailed description of her appearance if the answer to the riddle is obvious? But her family is never mentioned (even when speculating where she might have disappeared off to) and she appears to be 16 years old girl acting on her own, quite unusual in her society.

Being a highborn bastard of a powerful Lord is a higher social status than being a trueborn commoner, especially if it gets you a dragon to ride so in absence of any other relevant identity the seed status would be used. Brown Ben Plumm still boasts of the little drop of dragon blood several generations later. Or maybe she's really a bastard.

[JonathanTheBold]

can anyone who says nettles isn't a targ put forth any evidence that she isn't other then we'll she's black so we don't know. everything we know about dragon riders leads us to the conclusion that Targs are the only people left who can ride them so please put forth some evidence to the contrary

[Kingmonkey]

can anyone who says nettles isn't a targ put forth any evidence that she isn't other then we'll she's black so we don't know. everything we know about dragon riders leads us to the conclusion that Targs are the only people left who can ride them so please put forth some evidence to the contrary

There's no evidence to the contrary, but there isn't really any evidence for it, either. Certainly people believe that you have to be a Targ/Dragonseed to ride a dragon, but in the case of several supposed dragonseeds we don't know their ancestry -- we only know that they were able to tame dragons and therefore were assumed to be dragonseeds.

Here's the circular logic behind it:

X,Y and Z have tamed dragons, despite being of unknown ancestry.

1. Targaryen blood is known to be required to tame dragons.

2. Therefore X, Y and Z, though of unknown ancestry, must have Targaryen blood.

3. Therefore everyone who has tamed dragons has Targaryen blood.

4. See 1.

As far as I know, there's no example of someone known to have no Targaryen blood taming a dragon. However, our sample is very heavily self-selected. It is so widely assumed that you need Targaryen blood to tame dragons that generally only Targaryens try. Indeed, generally only Targaryens have the opportunity to try. The one time we know of when it was thrown open to people to try, several people known to have Targaryen blood failed, whilst several people of uncertain ancestry succeeded.

In short: It's widely believed that Targaryen blood is required to ride dragons. There is no evidence to disprove this assumption, but the evidence for it is piss-poor.

Case unproven. It all comes down to whether GRRM gave the Targaryens midichlorians, or whether it's a Targaryen scam that's become gospel. As it turned out, the Tudors weren't able to cure scrofula with a touch, and nor could the Habsbergs cure stuttering with a kiss.

[JonathanTheBold]

There's no evidence to the contrary, but there isn't really any evidence for it, either. Certainly people believe that you have to be a Targ/Dragonseed to ride a dragon, but in the case of several supposed dragonseeds we don't know their ancestry -- we only know that they were able to tame dragons and therefore were assumed to be dragonseeds.

Here's the circular logic behind it:

X,Y and Z have tamed dragons, despite being of unknown ancestry.

1. Targaryen blood is known to be required to tame dragons.

2. Therefore X, Y and Z, though of unknown ancestry, must have Targaryen blood.

3. Therefore everyone who has tamed dragons has Targaryen blood.

4. See 1.

As far as I know, there's no example of someone known to have no Targaryen blood taming a dragon. However, our sample is very heavily self-selected. It is so widely assumed that you need Targaryen blood to tame dragons that generally only Targaryens try. Indeed, generally only Targaryens have the opportunity to try. The one time we know of when it was thrown open to people to try, several people known to have Targaryen blood failed, whilst several people of uncertain ancestry succeeded.

In short: It's widely believed that Targaryen blood is required to ride dragons. There is no evidence to disprove this assumption, but the evidence for it is piss-poor.

Case unproven. It all comes down to whether GRRM gave the Targaryens midichlorians, or whether it's a Targaryen scam that's become gospel. As it turned out, the Tudors weren't able to cure scrofula with a touch, and nor could the Habsbergs cure stuttering with a kiss.

you just keep running back to your circular arguent nonsense and refuse to give real evidence. if u dropped and stone in the water 99 times and say the 100th time it's going to sink to would that be circular because that's how we know how dragons work every person we've seen ride a dragon has targ blood so it's logic to assume there's something to the idea that only people with targ ancestry can do it. lastly there where many people with out targ ancestry that tried to tame dragons and they all burned

[The Vulture King]

Dragons are not horses. They do not easily accept men upon their backs, and when angered or threatened, they attack. Sixteen men lost their lives during an attempt to become dragonriders. Three times that number were burned or maimed. Steffon Darklyn was burned to death whilst attempting to mount the dragon Seasmoke. Lord Gormon Massey suffered the same fate when approaching Vermithor.

“We cannot ask these men to shed blood with us, then kill them.” Bold John Roxton settled the dispute. “We kill the bastards now,” he said. “Afterward, let the bravest of us claim their dragons and fly them into battle.” No man in that cellar doubted that Roxton was speaking of himself.

Afterward, Lord Unwin Peake offered a thousand golden dragons to any knight of noble birth who could claim Silverwing. Three men came forth. When the first had his arm torn off and the second burned to death, the third man reconsidered.

Surely, those guys were idiots to try to mount those dragons, because you know, Targ blood is necessary to ride dragons. Rhaenyra must be suffering from postpartum depression for allowing her LC of the KG or her loyal lord to try to mount a dragon, because you know, Targ blood is necessary to ride dragons.

No matter how many times you write that, it will not confirm that Nettles was a seed.

You really think that the whole 5000 year thing isn't strong enough proof that you need "Dragon Blood" to ride a dragon?

I mean think about how long 5000 years is. We have no records of ANY other person EVER riding a dragon.

We know dragonlords have been killed in revolts. If riding a dragon was of any chance at all the people revolting surely would have kept a dragon or 2 alive to ride.

Also your telling me no one tried to steal a egg/dragon in 5000 years? If you could in fact ride a dragon without dragon blood one of these surely would have prevailed and been the first non "dragon blood" dragon rider ever.

Sorry after TWOIAF pretty much confirms what I think the author thought we would have already pieced together.

[Mithras]

Here is the evidence for a person with no Targ blood riding a dragon:

The first Ser Artys Arryn supposedly rode upon a huge falcon (possibly a distorted memory of dragonriders seen from afar, Archmaester Perestan suggests). Armies of eagles fought at his command.

Something was moving atop one of them, he saw.

A dragon, but which one? At this distance, it could as easily have been an eagle. A very big eagle.

It is also as good as confirmed that historical Azor Ahai, the Last Hero, Ser Artys Arryn the Winged Knight and all the other Long Night heroes in Essos were the same person and the Lightbringer they used was a dragon.

[Kingmonkey]

you just keep running back to your circular arguent nonsense and refuse to give real evidence. if u dropped and stone in the water 99 times and say the 100th time it's going to sink to would that be circular because that's how we know how dragons work every person we've seen ride a dragon has targ blood so it's logic to assume there's something to the idea that only people with targ ancestry can do it. lastly there where many people with out targ ancestry that tried to tame dragons and they all burned

Did you read the post you were answering?

First, I don't keep running back to anything, that was my first post in the thread. I explained what the circular reasoning involved here was. It's entirely different from your stones in a pond thing. Where you must make the assumption to prove the assumption, you have circular reasoning.

Second, I don't "refuse to give real evidence", I stated very clearly that I believe there isn't enough "real evidence" to prove either viewpoint.

Third, There are people who have Targaryen ancestry who tried to tame dragons and burned. There are people who tried and succeeded who's ancestry is unclear. Thus, the correlation is not proven.

I believe in the case of Hugh Hammer, Ulf the White and Nettles, we do not know for sure whether they had any Targaryen blood. Given that it is believed in Westeros that Targ blood is necessary to tame a dragon, it would be believed that they did have Targ blood purely on the evidence that they tamed dragons. Thus simply seeing them listed as being dragonseeds without knowing whether there was any reason for them to be considered dragonseeds apart from the fact that they tamed dragons is insufficient evidence of them having Targ blood. Remember that TWOIAF is written from a Maester's view, and represents common beliefs, not necessarily reality.

[Mithras]

You really think that the whole 5000 year thing isn't strong enough proof that you need "Dragon Blood" to ride a dragon?

I mean think about how long 5000 years is. We have no records of ANY other person EVER riding a dragon.

We know dragonlords have been killed in revolts. If riding a dragon was of any chance at all the people revolting surely would have kept a dragon or 2 alive to ride.

Also your telling me no one tried to steal a egg/dragon in 5000 years? If you could in fact ride a dragon without dragon blood one of these surely would have prevailed and been the first non "dragon blood" dragon rider ever.

Sorry after TWOIAF pretty much confirms what I think the author thought we would have already pieced together.

Instead of bringing hypothetical arguments which do not make sense at all (such as assuming that you stole an egg, how do you mean to hatch it?), why don't you answer the question I put forward at hand? At least Rhaenyra was aware of the "urban legend" that Targ blood was necessary to ride a dragon because her son said

“Our uncle calls us Strongs, and claims that we are bastards, but when the lords see us on dragonback they will know that for a lie. Only Targaryens ride dragons.”

Did Steffon Darklyn or Gormon Massey have Targ blood so that Rhaenyra risked her LC of the KG and her Lord of Stonedance to tame a dragon? Did Jon Roxton have Targ blood too? How about those anonymous knights trying to tame dragons?

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I meant in the general sense of nothing being known of her origins at all. Some others seem to be Velaryon bastards, and with the other two we at least have some history like occupation etc. We also get, for some reason, detailed description of her appearance, which doesn't happen with the other seeds.

A dragonseed is a bastard by definition (not being a full-blood Targaryen) and she obviously isn't a noble otherwise she and everybody else would know her exact lineage so she must be baseborn.

The actual quote is that 'Not all those who came forward were seeds, nor even the sons or grandsons of seeds, A score of the queen's own guard offered themselves...along with squires, scullions, sailors, men-at-arms, mummers and two maids.' It was very much a free for all.

Very well. Since Nettles is obviously a seed, you shouldn't have any problems pointing out the Targ/Velaryon that she is descended from.

OK ok, You know I have no idea who Nettles descended from.

But I do have a question for you and Antz. There seems to be quite a lot known of Nettles, that she was of low birth (but was a dragonseed, woiaf), that she rode Sheepstealer, that her and Dameon had an affair, and that she flew away on her dragon and survived the end of the Dance.

Would you 2 say that the ONLY piece of incorrect information about her is that she was a dragonseed? I mean do you disagree with any other facts about her, or is it only that one thing, which also happens to be a point you argued before TWOIAF came out?

Also I was re-reading some more of the Valyrain stuff in TWOIAF. "Valyrians alone were able to tame and master dragons as no one else in the world could."

Do you both also disagree with that statement?

I have finished the entire book now, not once in any section about the Riverlands, Ib, Essos, The Stormlands, etc. etc. is there even one hint that any non-Valyrian ever rode any dragon of any kind. Do you both disagree with that as well, you think there are cases of non-Valyrains riding dragons and TWOIAF is also wrong about that?