Cannibal, Sheepstealer and Grey Ghost - non-Targaryen dragons?

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Because the person to formulate the theory - Maester Galdayn, never offers any evidence of his claims apart from oh I guess she must have been since she rode a dragon. He (and we) know next to nothing about Nettles - who her ancestors were, where she came from, even whether she was actually born on Dragonstone. There is no evidence she is a dragonseed apart from circular logic. People repeating the notion does not make it any more true.

She might or might not have had a Targ in her family tree, but until we see it we will never know. As for direwolves, well, Jon.

I'm sorry but the whole 'circular logic' thing is getting old very fast. If someone has some evidence hidden away that people besides Targs can ride a dragon, please put it forward. I would love to see it, otherwise this is just argument for arguments sake. Tyrion believes in the 'circular logic', and BBP accepts what he says, why is this not enough?

It's quite simple, the dragons like BBP, BBP must have dragon blood, which he does, it was also confirmed by WOIAF, coincidence that this is the ONLY person Dany ever mentions the dragons being fond of (twice)? And that this is the ONLY person the dragons have met who has a substantial amount of Targ blood besides Dany? It's all right there in Tyrion's DwD chapters.

"No one. Most of the stories you hear about dragons are fodder for fools. Talking Dragons, dragons with four legs and bellies big as elephants, dragons riddling with sphinxes.....nonsense, all of it. But there are truths in the old books as well. Not only do I know that the queen's dragons took to you, but I know why."

"My mother said my father had a drop of dragon blood."

"Two drops."

[Lord Varys]

People apparently know that Sheepstealer hatched when the Old King was still young. That suggests that this happened in one of the hatcheries rather than wherever the Cannibal lived.

[SirCharles of HouseBarkley]

I have always though too that the dragons lineage was just as important as the riders. Couldn't the dragons be bonded to another Varylian family that Nettles shares blood with? There were other Varylian families there before the Targs. I assume when the Targs migrated they brought not just blood relatives but also retainers,servants, sworn shields and the like. There could even have been family members,such as cousins, that had blood of other dragon lords thatwasn't shared with the main Targ line.

I recall that it was detailed how many dragons and eggs came to Dragonstone, it not if all the dragons and eggs were related.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I have always though too that the dragons lineage was just as important as the riders. Couldn't the dragons be bonded to another Varylian family that Nettles shares blood with? There were other Varylian families there before the Targs. I assume when the Targs migrated they brought not just blood relatives but also retainers,servants, sworn shields and the like. There could even have been family members,such as cousins, that had blood of other dragon lords thatwasn't shared with the main Targ line.

I recall that it was detailed how many dragons and eggs came to Dragonstone, it not if all the dragons and eggs were related.

I dont think one of the Targaryen servants would be a member of one of the other 40 Dragonlord families from Valyria. These people are basically Valyrain Royalty, doubtful that one of them would end up a servant for a rival house.

[Free Northman Reborn]

I'm sorry but the whole 'circular logic' thing is getting old very fast. If someone has some evidence hidden away that people besides Targs can ride a dragon, please put it forward. I would love to see it, otherwise this is just argument for arguments sake. Tyrion believes in the 'circular logic', and BBP accepts what he says, why is this not enough?

It's quite simple, the dragons like BBP, BBP must have dragon blood, which he does, it was also confirmed by WOIAF, coincidence that this is the ONLY person Dany ever mentions the dragons being fond of (twice)? And that this is the ONLY person the dragons have met who has a substantial amount of Targ blood besides Dany? It's all right there in Tyrion's DwD chapters.

Your logic makes sense, as long as you base it on one crucial assumption: Namely that Sheepstealer was a Targaryen dragon. Take away that assumption and the entire argument for Nettles being a Dragonseed falls flat. If Sheepstealer is a Targaryen dragon, however, then I agree, Nettles does have Targ blood.

[Free Northman Reborn]

People apparently know that Sheepstealer hatched when the Old King was still young. That suggests that this happened in one of the hatcheries rather than wherever the Cannibal lived.

Could they not simply have noted when a new baby dragon appeared from some volcanic cave on the back of Dragonstone?

What stopped Targaryen dragons from laying some of their eggs outside the hatchery, and if so, it is only natural for the maesters to assume that any newborn dragon was from a Targaryen egg, even if they didn't actually see the egg hatch.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Your logic makes sense, as long as you base it on one crucial assumption: Namely that Sheepstealer was a Targaryen dragon. Take away that assumption and the entire argument for Nettles being a Dragonseed falls flat. If Sheepstealer is a Targaryen dragon, however, then I agree, Nettles does have Targ blood.

Could they not simply have noted when a new baby dragon appeared from some volcanic cave on the back of Dragonstone?

What stopped Targaryen dragons from laying some of their eggs outside the hatchery, and if so, it is only natural for the maesters to assume that any newborn dragon was from a Targaryen egg, even if they didn't actually see the egg hatch.

Ok, OK fair enough. My only problem with this theory is that for Sheepstealer (or Cannibal or Grey Ghost) to be Westeros native dragons, they would have to have Westeros dragon parents, grandparents and so forth all the way back to before the First Men arrived, which means there would have been multiple dragons in Westeros during it's entire history, yet no mention is ever made of such dragons. Everyone agrees that Dragons came back to Westeros when the Targs did. So your theory is possible, but there is no evidence for it that makes sense. I just think we have enough theories to go on that have some sort of textual evidence, and this one doesn't have any.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Ok, OK fair enough. My only problem with this theory is that for Sheepstealer (or Cannibal or Grey Ghost) to be Westeros native dragons, they would have to have Westeros dragon parents, grandparents and so forth all the way back to before the First Men arrived, which means there would have been multiple dragons in Westeros during it's entire history, yet no mention is ever made of such dragons. Everyone agrees that Dragons came back to Westeros when the Targs did. So your theory is possible, but there is no evidence for it that makes sense. I just think we have enough theories to go on that have some sort of textual evidence, and this one doesn't have any.

Well the only evidence we have is that the smallfolk believe Cannibal was on Dragonstone long before the Targaryens arrived. Meaning long before 112BC. Meaning long before 242 years prior to the Dance. Meaning he would already have been much older than Balerion's final age of 210 or thereabouts. And we have no record of his death as yet.

So if there is any truth to this tale, there are only a few possibilities:

1. His origin must be from either another Valyrian dragon lineage, or from a non-Valyrian dragon lineage. Either way, if he was an isolated single dragon, his lifespan would have to be extreme.

2. Cannibal is somehow able to hibernate in the volcano, thus prolonging his life significantly.

3. Alternatively, whatever his origin, if he is not extra long lived, he has to be part of a reclusive colony that has stayed hidden around Dragonstone since they first arrived there. His ancestors that were occasionally glimpsed were then mistaken as being Cannibal himself, back in the early days.

4. They could hunt in the ocean at night, or in Cracklaw point (where we have the legend of Clarence Crabb and his encounter with the dragon), and otherwise remain hibernating in their volcano.

Or else, the smallfolk were talking utter nonsense, and there is no more mystery around Cannibal at all, and he was just an early Targaryen dragon (hatched before the Conquest even, possibly,) that has gone wild. All I know is, I much prefer the idea of there being more to him that that.

[Maia]

Your logic makes sense, as long as you base it on one crucial assumption: Namely that Sheepstealer was a Targaryen dragon. Take away that assumption and the entire argument for Nettles being a Dragonseed falls flat.

Take away that argument and you end up with what? That adult wild dragons were absurdly easy to tame - much easier than dogs or falcons, but nobody was clever enough to figure out that you just need to offer them a few sheep before Nettles came along? This makes zero sense to me.

Or that Sheepsteeler was a dragon from a different Valyrian lineage and that Nettles somehow had a blood of that lineage, perhaps through some Lyseni sailor forbear - which is possible, but so what? It doesn't really change anything, IMHO. Not to mention that people remembering when the Sheepstealer first appeared and that it was when Jaehaerys was still young, makes it less likely, IMHO.

Grey Ghost looked like Seasmoke and, I assume, had to be pretty young and small for an injured Sunfyre to be able to kill him. So, it is far more likely that it was related to Seasmoke, IMHO.

As to Cannibal, I could see it being from a different lineage, yes. It could explain it's behavior and there is that rumor that it might have predated Targaryen presence on Dragonstone. Balerion may have died at 208, but there probably was a variation in dragon longevity, so Cannibal living until 240 or so wouldn't have been impossible. WOIAF also mentions that the sight of the dragonriders over the Blackwater Bay wasn't unusual when Valyria was still around. One of their dragons could have certainly deposited a clutch on Dragonstone.

I also can't help but wonder who the would-be tamers of Cannibal, whose bones were supposed to line it's lair, were. Wouldn't surprise me if a Targ or 2 had been among them.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

As to Cannibal, I could see it being from a different lineage, yes. It could explain it's behavior and there is that rumor that it might have predated Targaryen presence on Dragonstone. Balerion may have died at 208, but there probably was a variation in dragon longevity, so Cannibal living until 240 or so wouldn't have been impossible. WOIAF also mentions that the sight of the dragonriders over the Blackwater Bay wasn't unusual when Valyria was still around. One of their dragons could have certainly deposited a clutch on Dragonstone.

I also can't help but wonder who the would-be tamers of Cannibal, whose bones were supposed to line it's lair, were. Wouldn't surprise me if a Targ or 2 had been among them.

My money for Cannibal is on the bolded. Makes the most sense as, like you said, the Targs had been coming to Dragonstone for many decades before they moved there.

[Free Northman Reborn]

Take away that argument and you end up with what? That adult wild dragons were absurdly easy to tame - much easier than dogs or falcons, but nobody was clever enough to figure out that you just need to offer them a few sheep before Nettles came along? This makes zero sense to me.

Or that Sheepsteeler was a dragon from a different Valyrian lineage and that Nettles somehow had a blood of that lineage, perhaps through some Lyseni sailor forbear - which is possible, but so what? It doesn't really change anything, IMHO. Not to mention that people remembering when the Sheepstealer first appeared and that it was when Jaehaerys was still young, makes it less likely, IMHO.

Grey Ghost looked like Seasmoke and, I assume, had to be pretty young and small for an injured Sunfyre to be able to kill him. So, it is far more likely that it was related to Seasmoke, IMHO.

As to Cannibal, I could see it being from a different lineage, yes. It could explain it's behavior and there is that rumor that it might have predated Targaryen presence on Dragonstone. Balerion may have died at 208, but there probably was a variation in dragon longevity, so Cannibal living until 240 or so wouldn't have been impossible. WOIAF also mentions that the sight of the dragonriders over the Blackwater Bay wasn't unusual when Valyria was still around. One of their dragons could have certainly deposited a clutch on Dragonstone.

I also can't help but wonder who the would-be tamers of Cannibal, whose bones were supposed to line it's lair, were. Wouldn't surprise me if a Targ or 2 had been among them.

We know nothing about Nettles. Maybe she had other powers, was a warg, part Child of the Forest, practiced blood magic. Whatever.

My interest here is really in Cannibal. But in order for Cannibal to be something other than a Targ dragon, as I hope, we need to explain his longevity. And that either has to be because he is part of a larger group, or else he is a super long lived dragon.

I just wondered how the other dragons came to be wild, and whether it could not be because they too were of his lineage. If wild dragons from before the Long Night survived in the Fourteen Flames of Valyria, why could they not also survive in the volcano of Dragonstone?

[Free Northman Reborn]

My money for Cannibal is on the bolded. Makes the most sense as, like you said, the Targs had been coming to Dragonstone for many decades before they moved there.

But to tie in with the other facts we know about Cannibal, this clutch had to have been left by a Valyrian dragon from another Valyrian family. Maybe a dragonlord that visited the outpost long before the Targs actually moved there. What was Dragonstone's history before the Targs moved there? I know they owned it, but I seem to recall they only owned it for maybe 100 years prior to the Doom. What was its history for the thousands of years before that?

[Suzanna Stormborn]

But to tie in with the other facts we know about Cannibal, this clutch had to have been left by a Valyrian dragon from another Valyrian family. Maybe a dragonlord that visited the outpost long before the Targs actually moved there. What was Dragonstone's history before the Targs moved there? I know they owned it, but I seem to recall they only owned it for maybe 100 years prior to the Doom. What was its history for the thousands of years before that?

Good question. I want to know as well. You definitely have a theory here, personally I think he is just an escaped, wild, Targaryen Dragon from some forgotten clutch of eggs. But yeah, it would be better to know more of Dragonstone's history.

[Maia]

Well, i don't see why Cannibal would have to be super long-lived to live to be 240-250, when Balerion only lived to be 208. That strikes me as natural life-span variation. And, from what we have seen so far, none of the other healthy dragons actually died natural deaths, so we have no real basis for comparison. Cannibal's already very advanced age would neatly explain it's disappearance soon after the Dance, though.

And yea, I like the idea that a dragon belonging to another family may have deposited a clutch on Dragonstone prior to Targaryens moving there, and Cannibal was the result. It could explain it's inimical behavior to the Targ dragons. Certainly a more interesting explanation than pure crazyness, IMHO.

[Veltigar]

I don't think there is any competing line of dragons out there. I can't prove it of course, so carry on ;)

[RumHam]

Since Yandel does not mention having uncovered some new source material that sounds just like him repeating the official story as outlined in tPatQ, presumably the defining work on the subject. I certainly would not call it conclusive evidence.

The thing is the released version of The Princess and the Queen was heavily edited to fit it into Dangerous Women. I'd bet that the full version has more to say about Nettles' lineage, even if it's just a theory of Glydayn's. In the released version he seems to lump her in with the other dragonseeds.

[Maid So Fair]

I'm sorry but the whole 'circular logic' thing is getting old very fast. If someone has some evidence hidden away that people besides Targs can ride a dragon, please put it forward. I would love to see it, otherwise this is just argument for arguments sake. Tyrion believes in the 'circular logic', and BBP accepts what he says, why is this not enough?

It's quite simple, the dragons like BBP, BBP must have dragon blood, which he does, it was also confirmed by WOIAF, coincidence that this is the ONLY person Dany ever mentions the dragons being fond of (twice)? And that this is the ONLY person the dragons have met who has a substantial amount of Targ blood besides Dany? It's all right there in Tyrion's DwD chapters.

Nettles herself is the best evidence of a non-Targaryen riding a dragon. You can try to fit the rule around the exception, as you seem to, or we can take what we know about Nettles (ie. no known Targ lineage) and wonder if a new rule is in order. There's also the fact that it's not known how the Valyrians tamed the dragons, and magic originating from Asshai is one of the theories put forward. Nettles could well have some magical skill. We already know that the right bloodline alone is not enough since there are Targs/Valyrians who do not ride dragons. GRRM even said one of the heads of the dragon might not be a Targ.

What is IMHO silly is to presume that this is somehow a closed matter. The author had every option to make this unambiguous and he chose not to.

The thing is the released version of The Princess and the Queen was heavily edited to fit it into Dangerous Women. I'd bet that the full version has more to say about Nettles' lineage, even if it's just a theory of Glydayn's. In the released version he seems to lump her in with the other dragonseeds.

That might well be true, and there might well be more about Nettles that we haven't seen yet. Still, I find it unlikely that she would be revealed as a known dragonseed considering the measter is at pains to point out she has absolutely no known Valyrian features, and that her origin is a mystery. He wouldn't say that only to contradict himself in a latter volume/additional unpublished text.

There's also the fact that this girl, plain-looking and by all accounts ordinary, managed to catch the eye of the biggest badass of his time who also just so happened to develop an interest in weirwoods and Old Gods, and who is rumored to have survived to go live on basically the holiest place in Westeros. If the hints in TWOIAF are to be believed, she went on to found the Burned Men and was thought a witch among them. There's something special about Nettles and it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest to learn she had magic.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Nettles herself is the best evidence of a non-Targaryen riding a dragon. You can try to fit the rule around the exception, as you seem to, or we can take what we know about Nettles (ie. no known Targ lineage) and wonder if a new rule is in order. There's also the fact that it's not known how the Valyrians tamed the dragons, and magic originating from Asshai is one of the theories put forward. Nettles could well have some magical skill. We already know that the right bloodline alone is not enough since there are Targs/Valyrians who do not ride dragons. GRRM even said one of the heads of the dragon might not be a Targ.

What is IMHO silly is to presume that this is somehow a closed matter. The author had every option to make this unambiguous and he chose not to.

That might well be true, and there might well be more about Nettles that we haven't seen yet. Still, I find it unlikely that she would be revealed as a known dragonseed considering the measter is at pains to point out she has absolutely no known Valyrian features, and that her origin is a mystery. He wouldn't say that only to contradict himself in a latter volume/additional unpublished text.

There's also the fact that this girl, plain-looking and by all accounts ordinary, managed to catch the eye of the biggest badass of his time who also just so happened to develop an interest in weirwoods and Old Gods, and who is rumored to have survived to go live on basically the holiest place in Westeros. If the hints in TWOIAF are to be believed, she went on to found the Burned Men and was thought a witch among them. There's something special about Nettles and it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest to learn she had magic.

Dude, the Targ's called for the Seeds to come and try to tame dragons and Nettles came forward, I am not bending anything. TWOIAF confirms she is a dragonseed.

My question to you is this; Do you have even one sentence from any of the literature that would suggest Nettles is not a 'dragonseed'? Is it because she has dark-skin? You think the Targs only sleep with white people? (obviously not true given her relationship with Dameon) What is it about her that makes you think she is not a seed?

If you have no answers to these questions, then you are the one bending evidence to fit your ideas, not me. I go by the books, and the books call her a 'dragonseed'.

[Mithras]

Dragons are not horses. They do not easily accept men upon their backs, and when angered or threatened, they attack. Sixteen men lost their lives during an attempt to become dragonriders. Three times that number were burned or maimed. Steffon Darklyn was burned to death whilst attempting to mount the dragon Seasmoke. Lord Gormon Massey suffered the same fate when approaching Vermithor.

“We cannot ask these men to shed blood with us, then kill them.” Bold John Roxton settled the dispute. “We kill the bastards now,” he said. “Afterward, let the bravest of us claim their dragons and fly them into battle.” No man in that cellar doubted that Roxton was speaking of himself.

Afterward, Lord Unwin Peake offered a thousand golden dragons to any knight of noble birth who could claim Silverwing. Three men came forth. When the first had his arm torn off and the second burned to death, the third man reconsidered.

Surely, those guys were idiots to try to mount those dragons, because you know, Targ blood is necessary to ride dragons. Rhaenyra must be suffering from postpartum depression for allowing her LC of the KG or her loyal lord to try to mount a dragon, because you know, Targ blood is necessary to ride dragons.

TWOIAF confirms she is a dragonseed.

No matter how many times you write that, it will not confirm that Nettles was a seed.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

No matter how many times you write that, it will not confirm that Nettles was a seed.

LOL, no matter how many times I write it, NO ONE has given even one good counter-argument. Until someone does, I am right.

Excuse me, excuse me, it is not me who is right actually. I get my info from the literature, so actually the literature is what's right. And with the absence of any argument........