The Riverlands Web V.3

[Booknerd2]

I just want to mention a couple of reasons as to why many in the Vale wouldn't trust LF. When Cat brings Tryion to the Vale she meets the Blackfish there. He tells her many things of Lysa, including that since her husband Jon had died and she had returned to Eryie, she has had many suitors for her hand and had so far rejected them all. At the end of this chapter, Lysa refuses Robb request for troops which angers the BF and he leaves the Vale for RR.

It is of import to note that the BF mentions the suitors to Cat. Lysa keeps the suitors at bay for a couple of years then BAM!! rushes off to the Fingers to marry LF. I doubt that the BF was please about this marriage at all. And what about those spurned suitors? The 'subtle' and 'sly' LF has just drawn a huge amount of attention to himself. Lysa may screech about 'luv' but the Vale lords know better-it's her claim he's interested in, just as they were. So there is a reason not to trust him and to look into this guy who has just been handed the keys to the Vale.

LF has a huge amount of business contacts all over Westeros and beyond. He runs high end brothels in KL, the kind Lords and Sers would visit. He is not unknown past KL, he is known. He's secretive in many ways, but has so many dealings all over, which include many shady deals, that the idea of a squeaky clean reputation to me is far fetched.

Ser Shadrich "The Mad Mouse" tells Brienne that he is looking for Sansa Stark and that Varys has offered a generous reward for her. We don't know the circumstances that he comes about as a sell sword for LF, but being an opportunist, this is a way for him to come to the Vale. If he knows anything about her family and surviving family members, he may think this is a good place to look and LF gives him the chance. So here is a slip up on LF's part. I wonder, does LF know that Varys has offered this reward?

Yeah, I am keeping hopes up with Blackfish. He knows him from boyhood to the stuff he observes now.

And does everyone remember that when Lysa wanted to get married instantly, he hesitated a bit? He might have even been concerned it was too soon for some reasons.

I think if she wasn't literally hanging Sansa out the Moon Door, he might have held on to Lysa a bit longer.

[Booknerd2]

I really think him dropping the SR will die bomb was a big mistake. Sansa has bonded with SR and realizes that he's a sick and very spoiled child. LF can't marry him like he did his mother, so he let's known that he's looking forward to SR's early death? Realy? He is off his game.

And about your comment about his hiring sell swords to watch his ass; sell swords can be useful, but fickle. The Mad Mouse would be just as happy to put his hired sword up LF's ass as any, especially if it means gaining that big reward he so wants.

Oh, I think he knows not to trust them. But for right now he is guessing he will pay them well, on time, and they may be more loyal then some in the Vale or elsewhere that he could get would be.

[Booknerd2]

Agreed, and it all seems to be happening around him, without him showing a care in the world. As we're discussing, he's either taken his eye of the ball, so to speak, or he really does have a 'super plan' that no-one can decipher. Here's to it being the former. :cheers:

That's what I haven't settled my mind on yet.

Either:

1. This guy has had a firm hand on all the balls and juggled and an eye on the prize to perfection and precision since book 1. So he is either loosening up and he is making a major pitfall.

2. Or we think he is, and like I worded it the other day, this jackass is going to make us think that, and he has a rabbit he is going to pull from a hat one day, that we can't predict. Or outside events dictate a plan enacted that we didn't know about he had as contingency.

LF gives me stress. LOL!

[LongRider]

Agreed, and it all seems to be happening around him, without him showing a care in the world. As we're discussing, he's either taken his eye of the ball, so to speak, or he really does have a 'super plan' that no-one can decipher. Here's to it being the former. :cheers:

His 'super duper' plan includes scum like Lyn Corbray. Corbary can carry on about what an ass LF is, but will the other lords come to think that perhaps 'he does protest too much?' The Vale is not KL, the culture is not quite as corrupt as KL and I would think the families and small folk know each other better than found in the big city. Gossip can go along way.

One thing I forgot to mention in my other post; not only did LF swoop in and marry the Lady of the Vale, but she dies a few months later and her singer, Marrillion is blamed. Hmmmm, the folks in Eryie sure knew how well favored he was by Lysa, how jealous of him she was and how he was able to rule the roost over the other small folk, especially the women. So, gossip about him being blamed for her death could add to the general milieu of distrust.

[Booknerd2]

His 'super duper' plan includes scum like Lyn Corbray. Corbary can carry on about what an ass LF is, but will the other lords come to think that perhaps 'he does protest too much?' The Vale is not KL, the culture is not quite as corrupt as KL and I would think the families and small folk know each other better than found in the big city. Gossip can go along way.

One thing I forgot to mention in my other post; not only did LF swoop in and marry the Lady of the Vale, but she dies a few months later and her singer, Marrillion is blamed. Hmmmm, the folks in Eryie sure knew how well favored he was by Lysa, how jealous of him she was and how he was able to rule the roost over the other small folk, especially the women. So, gossip about him being blamed for her death could add to the general milieu of distrust.

Great point. Yes, it is made clear earlier that she favored the singer Marillion. And favored means being treated very well for quite some time in her service. People will talk...

[Wizz-The-Smith]

That's what I haven't settled my mind on yet.

Either:

1. This guy has had a firm hand on all the balls and juggled and an eye on the prize to perfection and precision since book 1. So he is either loosening up and he is making a major pitfall.

2. Or we think he is, and like I worded it the other day, this jackass is going to make us think that, and he has a rabbit he is going to pull from a hat one day, that we can't predict. Or outside events dictate a plan enacted that we didn't know about he had as contingency.

LF gives me stress. LOL!

Yeah, it's a difficult one. He's not a P.O.V so we rely on accounts of his doings. I like our thoughts that he may be a bit slack at the moment, too confident, and this could lead to problems.

''LF gives me stress. LOL!'' Ha ! indeed, and trying to work out what he's up to, is er ....... complicated. :huh:

[Wizz-The-Smith]

His 'super duper' plan includes scum like Lyn Corbray. Corbary can carry on about what an ass LF is, but will the other lords come to think that perhaps 'he does protest too much?' The Vale is not KL, the culture is not quite as corrupt as KL and I would think the families and small folk know each other better than found in the big city. Gossip can go along way.

One thing I forgot to mention in my other post; not only did LF swoop in and marry the Lady of the Vale, but she dies a few months later and her singer, Marrillion is blamed. Hmmmm, the folks in Eryie sure knew how well favored he was by Lysa, how jealous of him she was and how he was able to rule the roost over the other small folk, especially the women. So, gossip about him being blamed for her death could add to the general milieu of distrust.

Good point about Corbray's protest's. Sansa worked out he was working for LF, he could well be seen as 'protesting too much'. And you're right gossip does go a long way, Sansa's journey down from the Eyrie was a little taster of that.

And again nice point about Marillion. He was another thing they spoke about on the trip down from the Eyrie.

[Booknerd2]

It sounds like LF is so pleased with himself that he just wants to brag to Sansa. But, he's messed up. He tells Sansa way more than he should have and thinks all his plans will come about just he's worked for.

Leaving the Eryie, while necessary, is not to LF's advantage. He and Alayne become more visible. I just don't see that this helps LF at all.

I love it. It is like walking out of an incubator. Maybe even why he started hiring more knowing they had to leave for Gates of the Moon.

Makes it that much easier for the Webbers, if that is what ends up happening.... :cool4:

Well, he had to leave that "deluxe apartment in the sky." LOL! Yeah, winter is coming even closer now, asshole.

[LongRider]

Yeah, it's a difficult one. He's not a P.O.V so we rely on accounts of his doings. I like our thoughts that he may be a bit slack at the moment, too confident, and this could lead to problems.

''LF gives me stress. LOL!'' Ha ! indeed, and trying to work out what he's up to, is er ....... complicated. :huh:

Yeah, that smarmy bastard gives a lot of stress! Remember when he was telling Sansa about the Fingers and how unkind he was about the people who lived there and so dismissive of them? I'm trying to decide if that dismissive attitude is also one that he takes to the Vale. Is he dissing these folks as the more of the great unwashed that he's lording over how smart he is? I guess I'm asking, is underestimating many of the Vale Lords and others? Anybody get that vibe?

[Le Cygne]

Then again, maybe he has a feeling he has to watch his ass. That something struck him and he is being careful.

That's what I was thinking, too. Either he's drinking because he's happy or because he's anxious. Because usually it's minty breath and now it's wine breath, we were supposed to notice that, too. Cat noticed the minty breath, too.

But hiring the extra swords is an indication he's anxious about something. He told Nestor Royce things went swimmingly, and Sansa, too. But did they really? Did Mad Max pick up on that?

Also the other knight with the red nose, spotted somewhere else, GRRM uses red nose to describe a drinker. So it's someone who likes wine, pehaps, so he was happy to help. And what about theatrical blonde knight?

[Wizz-The-Smith]

Yeah, that smarmy bastard gives a lot of stress! Remember when he was telling Sansa about the Fingers and how unkind he was about the people who lived there and so dismissive of them? I'm trying to decide if that dismissive attitude is also one that he takes to the Vale. Is he dissing these folks as the more of the great unwashed that he's lording over how smart he is? I guess I'm asking, is underestimating many of the Vale Lords and others? Anybody get that vibe?

I do get that vibe, and I know where you're coming from LongRider. He does show some respect to the Vale Lords as so much as he realises who is for or against him, and identifies certain Vale Lords that he needs to work on. But I do see problems for LF in the Vale, so perhaps him underestimating one or a bunch of them could be his downfall. :dunno:

[Booknerd2]

His 'super duper' plan includes scum like Lyn Corbray. Corbary can carry on about what an ass LF is, but will the other lords come to think that perhaps 'he does protest too much?' The Vale is not KL, the culture is not quite as corrupt as KL and I would think the families and small folk know each other better than found in the big city. Gossip can go along way.

One thing I forgot to mention in my other post; not only did LF swoop in and marry the Lady of the Vale, but she dies a few months later and her singer, Marrillion is blamed. Hmmmm, the folks in Eryie sure knew how well favored he was by Lysa, how jealous of him she was and how he was able to rule the roost over the other small folk, especially the women. So, gossip about him being blamed for her death could add to the general milieu of distrust.

This is good. You are right. There is a difference.

He needs the Vale more. So he is kissing their ass more and Littlefingering them with charm, money, offers, etc. He will generally act better there.

He can use them too and he has to run his ancestral lands, but he has nothing but disdain for the Fingers. He threw the Titan sigil of his house out and took up the mockingbird. I think the Fingers symbolizes for him the obstacle he had a birth that he had to climb over, and it bogged his way to Cat.

It will always just leave a bad taste in his mouth.

And honestly, if he can't use you much, you get treated like crap.

[Wizz-The-Smith]

That's what I was thinking, too. Either he's drinking because he's happy or because he's anxious. Because usually it's minty breath and now it's wine breath, we were supposed to notice that, too. Cat noticed the minty breath, too.

But hiring the extra swords is an indication he's anxious about something. He told Nestor Royce things went swimmingly, and Sansa, too. But did they really? Did Mad Max pick up on that?

Also the other knight with the red nose, spotted somewhere else, GRRM uses red nose to describe a drinker. So it's someone who likes wine, pehaps, so he was happy to help. And what about theatrical blonde knight?

Right ok, great point. I'll have to switch my thinking from earlier. Maybe the news from Oswell was more telling than I first thought ? He has hired the swords since the news after all.

Hmm, nice to have these ideas to bounce of each other, I'm sure I think myself into a corner sometimes with this series !

[Booknerd2]

That's what I was thinking, too. Either he's drinking because he's happy or because he's anxious. Because usually it's minty breath and now it's wine breath, we were supposed to notice that, too. Cat noticed the minty breath, too.

But hiring the extra swords is an indication he's anxious about something. He told Nestor Royce things went swimmingly, and Sansa, too. But did they really? Did Mad Max pick up on that?

Also the other knight with the red nose, spotted somewhere else, GRRM uses red nose to describe a drinker. So it's someone who likes wine, pehaps, so he was happy to help. And what about theatrical blonde knight?

Yes. That might be the only time I can remember he doesn't have minty fresh breath. And you are right. The word is anxious. I was going to say nerves but that is not accurate really.

And is it me, but was he possibly wanting to just hear himself talk? Did I feel a tinge of self-doubt, or maybe another word? Like he was over-reaching or overcompensating a bit?

The "Sansa, you and I will have everything we desire in a nicely neatly ribbon wrapped package" speech was off a bit.

Just throwning it out there. And I am going to try to articulate it better.

[Booknerd2]

Right ok, great point. I'll have to switch my thinking from earlier. Maybe the news from Oswell was more telling than I first thought ? He has hired the swords since the news after all.

Hmm, nice to have these ideas to bounce of each other, I'm sure I think myself into a corner sometimes with this series !

Ok, this is good. You picked up the scent too.

[LongRider]

That his boasting to Sansa could contain one or more lies about how things turned out is a provocative idea. And, wasn't she expecting a later return from him?

hmmmm, you could be on to something.

[Booknerd2]

Also going back to how the mic dropped and he would not elaborate on the three queens after he caught himself when she asked what he meant...

Can anyone think of things he does NOT want Sansa to know, or things he won't talk about with her?

I am going to try to come up with what and why also, I have to give it some thought. I am still thinking of the queens too.

It is ok that she knows Cersei is imploding and he will speak of that with her with glee, for one.

[LongRider]

Margery is one of those queens, and well, she has the goods on LF and guess what? On trial for her life coming up. Will she spill the beans?

That could create more trouble for Sansa tho. But lotsa trouble for LF. YAY!

[Le Cygne]

And is it me, but was he possibly wanting to just hear himself talk? Did I feel a tinge of self-doubt, or maybe another word? Like he was over-reaching or overcompensating a bit?

Overcompensating for the little finger! When she saw LF naked at the bedding, she didn't respond at all. Well, that's not true, she did respond. She wondered where the Hound was and thought the Hound was there to rescue her and lay down with the hound and dreamed of the Hound naked in bed with her... bigger than...

Hey, GRRM is the one who goes there all the time with the penis stuff. I'm just following his lead. :lol: But there is a part in The Company of Wolves (a very sexy telling of Little Red Riding Hood that sounds a lot like Blackwater and that dream) with what big... genitals.

http://www.sjsu.edu/faculty/harris/StudentProjects/Student_FairyTales/WebProject/Fairy%20Tales/Company%20of%20Wolves.htm

[Booknerd2]

That his boasting to Sansa could contain one or more lies about how things turned out is a provocative idea. And, wasn't she expecting a later return from him?

hmmmm, you could be on to something.

Yeah, I am even going to read that part again later.

It is all over the place.

Also, I was going to say "trying to convince himself a bit," but that might be taking it too far.

It may be we are being lulled with the old magic trick again by the author like we were with the orphanage and the QI, you know, (look at my right hand, so you don't see what the left is doing,) and as we all discussed before. It sounds like boasting and confidence superficially and on the surface and what is the norm for him, but then we are all are picking up other things/other signals left and right, and it could be, that if the readers are not looking closely, we can all be hornswoggled again.

And I love what you pointed out. Yeah, he did return later. Things get a little sticky for him?

Oh, and believe me, I truly think if he didn't have to leave the Eyrie, he would not.

I think it is a possibility. He mentioned the road is not as easy as when the 5 kings were clashing it out and he could work under the radar.

He is center stage, and it is a new way to operate for him.

Can he hack it?