The Riverlands Web V.3

[Booknerd2]

Here is the OP. It will always be a work in progress as characters, objects, places, post questions, and stuff is updated.

Here is the link to The Riverlands Web V.1 :http://asoiaf.wester...riverlands-web/

The Riverlands Web V.2: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/119354-the-riverlands-web-v2/

The Riverlands Web: Or How Some People Can’t Shake a Connection if They Tried.

This was started because it branched out of another thread and took on a life of its own. Many had thoughts regarding some characters and how far away they were from each other, and from the last two books we see that is now narrowing. The overlap or just missing each other that has been occurring will go somewhere eventually. In some cases, some theories were more likely than others. Many have debated what I called to myself the 6 degrees of Kevin Bacon or Starks. I dabbled here and there on threads, but always wished it would be in one place with everything in front. Arcs are narrowing and have or are about to intersect. We started to only brush the surface and took a look. So we wanted to delve into situations/connections and interpretations of what they mean and could mean, and give it a place of its own.

Here are some we have discussed, there are certainly more: Mini-fact, organizer, profiles...

Primary Tier Characters: Common thread: All in Riverlands area, and all looking for Sansa and Arya.

Brienne –of Tarth. Former Rainbow Guard member of Renly. Associated with Sapphires. Knew Catelyn, met Gendry and knows he’s Roberts’s son of her own accord, and I don’t need to elaborate on what she is currently doing for LS and BWB. We know her Jaime situation and she has fetched him. She is currently looking for Sansa and Arya Stark. She did not realize it but met Sandor on the QI. EB knows what her current mission is, he might have told Sandor. Sandor was standing around in his Novice Brother Halloween costume and surely heard something. Knows Thoros. Current Status: With Jaime

Sandor – No ser. House Clegane. Former bodyguard to King Joffrey. KG. Familiar with Sansa and Arya Stark. Run-in with BWB, LS thinks he was the last person to see Arya. Sandor knows Jaime from KL and earlier than that. Currently with EB (or maybe not?) Knows Thoros. Saw Gendry with Arya. Knows Catelyn Stark was the girls mother. Knowledge of LS through EB???Unknown and Speculative. Was there when Brienne showed up to QI. Reaction presently unknown. News he has gathered or input from EB unknown. Current Status: QI or Maybe not

Gendry – Ser of the Hollow Hill - Knighted by Dondarrion. Bastard son of King Robert. Part Targ and Estermont. Former blacksmith's apprentice. Familiar with Arya – now knows Brienne – at orphanage assisting with looking for Arya/ Sansa - member of BWB. Saw Sandor take Arya. Met Ned, and is working with LS. Knows Thoros. Current Status: with LS, Thoros, BWB

Lady Stoneheart (Catelyn Tully Stark) – AKA - Mother Merciless, The Hangwoman, LS for posts, - House Tully/Stark/BWB - Looking for Sansa and Arya. Knows Gendry. Reaction unknown. Most likely knows he was with Arya.Thinks Sandor took Arya. Working with BWB and familiar with Brienne and Jaime as Catelyn and now LS (again we know they are headed toward her, so no need to elaborate). Knows Thoros. Current Status: WIth BWB, Gendry, Thoros, etc.

Brynden - AKA Blackfish - House Tully - Uncle and Great Uncle of LS, Arya, & Sansa. Certainly no Jaime fan, a'tall. Whereabouts currently unknown, but last seen escaping from Riverrun. Knows Hound. Current Status: ??? - which translates to: No one has any idea where the hell he is currently.

Jaime -House Lannister - KG - familiar and with Brienne. Knew Catelyn and will possibly soon know LS. Knows Blacksfish. Knows Arya and Sansa and looking for them. Knows Sandor. Knows Thoros. Current Status: with Brienne

Stranger - "Driftwood" - Badass horse of Sandor Clegane - House Clegane - Allegiance to Sandor - No one else can go near him risking personal injury/loss of body parts - ex: ear - hates everyone but Sandor - Knows Sansa and Arya - Knows Jaime -Knows Thoros - Knows Gendry - Knows BWB - Saw Brienne briefly as she walked into his stable (he would say "jail") - hates Sandor's Novice Brother Halloween Costume - wants to keep his "bits" - surely incensed that EB could not come up with a better name than "Driftwood" (makes him sound like a dork) - grateful in a way that his stable stall is not near the others - unable to be gelded - unable to be handled/cared for by anyone but Sandor - Advice: Don't even try! Not looking particularly for Sansa and Arya but will most likely agree to it, if his owner will get a move on already and get him the hell off the QI. Actually, the horse will probably agree to anything at this point for freedom. Current Status: Eye-rolling and attempting to kick the damn stable door down at the QI, or he would say "jail."

Nymeria - AKA BIG NYMS -House Stark - direwolf - one of original 6 in litter - 4 left - only female left of litter - Arya's direwolf - Connection/shared extension of/with Arya - hates the friggin Lannisters, Freys, etc. for many reasons - female alpha - roaming Riverlands - Hates everyone - Knows/hates Jaime - Knew Catelyn - pulled Catelyn as LS out of water/aware of LS to some degree - might have seen Arya/been aware of a presence -More concerned with Arya than Sansa most likely, but…still went in to retrieve LS/Arys's mother - might know Gendry/BWB/Thoros anyone Arya was around ( few reasons it could be or could not be) - rules pack of other male and female wolves -HDWIC - Current Status: Pissed off! Meanwhile in the Riverlands...

Thoros - of Myr, priest of R'hllor, BWB, bromance with Beric, with LS/not happy with how she runs things, Knows Sandor. Knows Stranger. Knows Jaime. Looking for Arya and Sansa. Drinking buddies with King Robert. Known for sword on fire circus trick. Knows Brienne. Knows Gendry….???? we will get back to this. Current Status: With LS, Gendry, BWB

The Late Lord Walder Frey - nonagenarian – the cryptkeeper – extremely fertile – loves the ladies –widower many times over - will acknowledge bastards and is married more times than I can count –Lord of the Crossing – House Frey – rules the Twins – hates slights – can’t marry off multiple children and bastards and now grandchildren and so on – was pledged to Riverrun – called the Late Lord Frey by Hoster Tully – will hesitate to act unless he sees an advantage for himself/his House –he will take care of his progeny - host of the Red Wedding – knew Cat, hopefully will hear of/know LS – knows Jaime – May have heard of the Hound - despises Edmure and Blackfish - comes from a long line of weak chins and weasely features -sided with Lannisters and Boltons and others over Starks and Tullys -broke guest right -his house is now targeted by Lady Stoneheart and BWB. Even Dunc thinks he started out life a real pain in the ass - He has a search for the outlaws responsible for the hangings of kin - The North and many others hate him due to treachery, murders and hostages, and his disavowing guest right. Current Status: At the Twins – most likely hearing that House Frey decreased in number a bit more every few days. Responsible for death of Lady Stark, King Robb Stark, Grey Wind, many other people too, and still has several imprisoned. And really more problems every other day coming his way.

Secondary Tier Characters:

Harwin- House Stark allegiance - son of Hullen, Master of Horse of Winterfell - grew up and worked at Winterfell - stable boy/guard - Knows all members of House Stark very well, including previous generation, Rickard, Lyarra?, Ned, Brandon, Benjen, and Lyanna. Could id any Stark possibly. Used to lead Arya's pony as a child. Looking for Arya and Sansa. Could recently id Arya. BWB. Knows LS, Thoros, Sandor, Gendry, Jaime, other BWB members. Knows Nymeria. Current Status: BWB, and theories about being sent somewhere else.

Tom of Sevenstreams - AKA - Tom O' Sevens, Tom Sevenstrings - BWB. Knows Thoros, Sandor, Jaime, LS, Arya, Gendry. Singer/Lyricist/Musician. Plays woodharp. Hit single "The Floppy Fish." Familiar with House Tully (Edmure, Lysa, Hoster?) might know or know of Brynden. Current Status: Apparently, still in BWB, posing as musician looking for work, has infiltrated Frey camp at Riverrun, where he encountered Jaime. Can update LS on status of Edmure/other intelligence.

Lem Lemoncloak - Lem short for Lemoncloak - Redundant double name - some speculate an alias with more background he is not revealing for some reason - BWB - known for yellow cloak, bad teeth, broken nose not set and healed properly, large, strong man - Knows Thoros, Gendry, Arya, LS, Sandor, Brienne, Pod, Hyle. Currently: Utlizing Sandor's Hound Helm ( Mistaken identity issue? with BWB at the hanging that was halted.)

Anguy- AKA - The Archer - From Dorne - commoner -excellent at archery - Known to blow money on luxuries and girls - BWB - Knows Thoros, Gendry, Arya, LS, Sandor. Knows and turned down offer from Ned Stark to join the Hand's Guard. Current Status: BWB

Septon Meribald- Septon that travels the Riverlands - from the area originally - illiterate - able to memorize religious doctrine of the Seven - lives on random assistance for food and shelter in exchange for carrying out septon duties. Distributes food and goods to poor. Travels with a donkey and a dog named "Dog." Knows Brienne, EB, Pod, Hyle, did run in to Sandor and Stranger on QI. Brings up the "tales" of Nymeria in circulation, but doesn't know who she is. Knows BWB. Current Status: Unknown, But allowed to go about his business by BWB.

Podrick Payne - "Pod" - House Payne - House is sworn to House Lannister - former squire to Tyrion - now accompanying Brienne - Knows Sandor. Saw EB, Sandor, Stranger? Would he know Sandor's horse? Knows Jaime. Looking for Arya and Sansa Stark. Looking for Tyrion. Knows Sansa enough to possibly id her, which would be asset to Brienne. Knows BWB. Knows LS. Knows Gendry. Knows Thoros. Knows Meribald. Current Status: Held for insurance by LS and BWB - almost hung, but reprieved temporarily.

Hyle Hunt- House Hunt - knight - allegiance to House Tarly - Knows Brienne, Pod, BWB, LS, Thoros, Meribald - rocky acquaintance with Brienne to begin with - Saw EB, Sandor, and Stranger - marriage proposal to Brienne was flatly denied - Did offer to fight Jaime in Brienne's place, offer denied. Seems to be looking for Sansa and Arya Stark, really, doing and going wherever Brienne is/does. Issues: may report back to Randyll Tarly. Obviously, knows Brienne is sole heir to Tarth and female, thus why he attempted to propose marriage. Current Status: Held for insurance by LS and BWB - almost hung, but reprieved temporarily.

The Hot Pie - From Flea Bottom, orphan, baker, does not kick people in the balls to death, contrary to what he said, Familiar with Arya and Gendry, Knows BWB, Knows Thoros, Current Status: In Riverlands at Inn of the Kneeling Man - baking the Westeros version of the cronut - Inn named for Arya Stark ancestor, Torrhen, The King Who Knelt.

Elder Brother – name unknown –House ? - former knight – House Targaryen allegiance during Robert’s Rebellion - supposed healing powers – head guy on Quiet Isle – unknown if he suggested the attempted nut-napping of Stranger – no vow of silence currently – appears through his story that he does have things in common with Sandor – did experience a doomed love - acquires news of events outside QI – we are not sure if he speaks with Sandor since their initial conversation we hear about secondhand when he tells Brienne info – tall, shaved head, not sure if veiny, red nose suggests drinking? – knows Brienne, Pod, Hyle, Septon Meribald – Unknown if he exchanges news with Meribald – knows of Saltpans – possible harboring of Sandor, yet he tells Brienne he is dead and constructed a decoy grave and laid the Hound Helm there before it was taken by Rorge – he knows Sandor travelled with the true Arya and shares this with Brienne – knows of Arya and Sansa – possibly knows or heard of other Webbers such as Jaime and Blackfish – does he know of BWB, the orphanage? Is he harboring other individuals? Current Status: On the Quiet Isle

Tertiary Tier Characters: Coming soon...

Edric Dayne - Ned - House Dayne – Lord/heir of Starfall – Dorne – was squire to Beric Dondarrion/ his almost uncle in-law. Does not possess Dawn…yet? Only living Dayne relative known is Aunt Allyria of the very long engagement that was not to be. Former member of BWB that defected with some members after Beric died and LS took over. Milk-brothers with Jon Snow, nursed by Wylla. Knows Sandor and Stranger, Jaime, LS, and the entire BWB. Oh….Gendry certainly knows who he is. He knows Arya. Appears to have knowledge of Starks. Knows Sansa. Current Status: Whereabouts Unknown – no known objectives that are clear at the moment.

Edmure Tully – House Tully heir – Riverrun – mocked by Tom O’s Sevens in song, “the floppy fish” -Knows Marq Piper – Fought and led men against battles with Lannisters and Gregor’s Riverlands raids – Tytos Blackwood rescues him – Known for his kind heart and sheltering and concern for the small folk at Riverrun even at an expense – Both Robb and Blackfish are upset with him for disrupting plans they had – In Robb’s place he marries a Frey girl, Roslin - At his bedding, the Red Wedding occurs and he later hears of the deaths - Walder Frey, his father-in-law takes him prisoner, and Riverrun is later besieiged – Blackfish does not budge as Edmure is threatened with hanging at a constructed gallows - The siege is lifted when Jaime arrives and amongst further negotiations - Edmure is given a choice: surrender Riverrun and his lordship and he will be moved to Casterly Rock where his wife will meet him upon giving birth - A tidy keep will be granted when their child comes of age - Any Riverrun defenders would lose their arms but would not be taken prisoner. Or, the castle and defenders would be attacked and both destroyed, with his baby reaching him “by catapult.” Edmure is allowed to bathe and to the tune “The Rains of Castamere.” Edmure delays the surrender to allow Blackfish to bounce. He is related to Catelyn/LS and Blackfish. Does not know what happened to his sister as LS. Knows the Hound. Knows BWB in general. Knows Tom only as a singer he dislikes. Knows the Stark children but not by sight. Oh, he knows Jaime all right. Current Status: Held by the Lannisters as a prisoner heading for the Westerlands and Casterly Rock.

Places in the Riverlands: Coming Soon...

The Inn at the Crossroads -

Peach/Stoney Sept -

The Twins - The Crossing – House Frey – 2 identical castles linked by a bridge and consisting of the Water Tower – at the Trident’s Green Fork – Fees are charged to pass – at a high price – source of Frey wealth – near route that goes from Riverlands north to Winterfell – it is heavily fortified. Site of Catelyn Stark’s meeting with Lord Frey in negotiations for Robb. Roose Bolton was married and his host stopped there. Also, it was the site of the Red Wedding massacre. Current Status: Lord Frey and many of his relatives, are lying in wait as word of Frey deaths emerge sporadically, and other news that affects the House would reach Lord Walder. Surely, the Late Lord Frey Death Watch is on amongst his relatives. Lady Roslin Frey Tully awaits the birth of her baby as well.

Riverrun – House Tully – allegiance to House Stark - Red Fork/Tumblestones – three-sided castle – stand-out feature is flooding a moat that can encircle the entire castle – excellent for sieges – Littlefinger was fostered here – site of double wedding of Ned Stark/Catelyn Tully and Jon Arryn/Lysa Stark – Robb Stark was born here – Riverrun has had its share of sieges – and eventually the Tullys are stripped of their ancestral home when Riverrun is given to Emmon Frey of the infamous “piece of paper.” It is surrenedered by Edmure but not before the Blackfish swims off. Current Status: in the possession of Emmon Frey and Genna Lannister Frey.

More to come...

Objects and Miscellaneous Coming soon...

Dog - a massive, shaggy dog named Dog – hangs out with Septon Meribald and protects him – has tussled with wolves (Big Nyms lost a few minions, I suppose) – Meribald believes he is a dog that hasn’t given his name yet, which also reflects the Hound keeping his identity quiet with help from EB – He is friendly unless you mess with him/Meribald – Meribald treats him well and keeps him fed – He will bark back if spoken too seemingly in answer – he sniffs the Gravedigger and his ear is scratched – at the Inn he sniffs out the blood from the Hound/Arya pub brawl on the floor that has seeped in the wood – The brothers have given bones to Dog before, telling us it is not his first visit with Meribald there. Current Status: unknown but assumed alive and possibly left with Meribald – Brienne does hear him barking during her fight with Rorge and Biter at the Inn.

The Bull Helm – created by Gendry at Tobho Mott’s Shop, King’s Landing – helm is representative of a bull with horns – symbolic of his size, strength, stubborness – his identity as forged by himself individually – he is sometimes called “The Bull” - representative of sticking it to boys he worked with at Mott’s - Ned Stark offered to buy it but he was told it was not for sale – indicative of him knowing who he is and he cannot be bought – a source of pride and nostalgia for most likely his first major project he completed as an apprentice smith, and perhaps the nicest and the most prized possession he owned –was used as armor for defense on the road - Current Status: It was taken by Dunsen, who is on Arya’s list, as well as Polliver, who did not have it at the pub brawl with Arya and Sandor. After that the whereabouts are unknown. Not sure if possible, or if it is symbolic of falling away and forging a new identity, but we are curious if it is seen again.

The Hound Helm -belongs to Sandor Clegane - reflective of House Clegane sigil, history, nickname/the Hound persona, and all that entails separate from Sandor - symbolic of a both fierce and loyal nature, the ability to sniff and sense bullshit/lies - now a symbol of falsely attributed atrocities committed not by Sandor - the Helm was laid on Sandor’s grave according to EB, and it was later stolen by Rorge - When he is killed by Brienne it is taken by Lem of the BWB. Current Status: with Lem, who was warned not to utilize it with misgivings by Thoros of Myr.

Needle -

Oathkeeper - Valyrian steel – one of two swords re-forged by Tobho Mott (Gendry’s former master smith/employer) from the Northern Stark longsword formerly known as Ice. A longsword and sister to Widow’s Wail which is smaller. It has a golden pommel carved into a Lannister lion’s head with two ruby chips for eyes. The blade itself is rippled black/red. The gold scabbard has a series of lion’s heads and bedazzler rubies. (Any former Stark or Northerner would be turning in their grave; they do simple. Sorry, it still pisses me off.) Lord Tywin gives it as a gift to Jaime originally but he asks Brienne to use it and doles out the name. In essence, the sword of Ned Stark is now in service to find his two daughters. It was the sword used to kill Lord Stark by Ilyn Payne. Requests by Robb and Catelyn to have it returned were denied previously. It is also incriminating evidence that Brienne has forgotten her oath to Lady Stark and is used by the BWB and LS as proof of collaborating with the Lannisters. Current Status: with Brienne of Tarth in the Riverlands, if it is on her?

More to come...

The common link - The Webbers are looking for:

Arya Stark -

Sansa Stark -

The Vale Connection: Coming soon...

Mad Mouse -

Myranda Royce -

[Booknerd2]

Update:

We are at V.3. Before the lock on V.2, I noticed there were some questions, comments thrown out, and other stuff going on. Carry on...

The next post question (#12) will be Dog the dog, Meribald's Dog.

After that, for the next few post questions we will be focusing on objects and places before returning once again to people and themes.

Don't forget that the Webbers will show up in all topics anyway, because everything co-mingles. Also, post questions are a focus, but any post questions/people, etc. can be brought up again as things occur or ideas come to mind at any time.

[Wizz-The-Smith]

Firstly, thank you Booknerd2 for your continued hard work on this thread, it's much appreciated ! :bowdown:

Secondly, at the end of V.2, LongRider suggested a conversation on Oathkeeper, so here goes. I love to read about the opinions of people on the symbolism of Brienne carrying Oathkeeper in her search for the Stark girls. I must admit, while I realised the obvious link in that it was forged from Ice, it's not something I have looked into a lot, but realise it's potential, and have enjoyed the odd post that comes up on this subject. Look forward to peoples opinions.

What I will add is, she is a beautiful sword. The black + red ripples seem to catch the eye of anyone looking at it. And the scabbard is intricately designed, glittering gold, decorated with a row of Lion's heads and smouldering red rubies. The pommel has a golden Lion's head with ruby eyes. Certainly an impressive sword.

However, as you point out in your post, after being apprehended by the BWB, they used this as evidence against her. Claiming she had defected to the Lannister cause. No wonder, whenever anyone sees a Valyrian Steel blade in Westeros they are captivated, and the lavish decoration on the scabbard is not turning attention away. Awesome sword, not so awesome outcome due to holding the sword.

Could the symbolism and the explanation of what the sword represents in their minds somehow help Brienne and Jaime ? A convincing declaration of their intentions ? I don't know, so hard to call.

One thing I'd like to add, is that this blade was made by Tobho Mott, so I think it's highly probable that Gendry will recognise his work instantly. At the very least the signature, I wonder if this could come into play ? Hard to see how, but a cool tidbit, maybe Gendry could study the work and try to master the art of reworking Valyrian Steel ? Perhaps he already picked up some tips from watching Tobho ? Nice idea to discuss Oathkeeper LongRider.

[LongRider]

#3! Squeee!

Firstly, thank you Booknerd2 for your continued hard work on this thread, it's much appreciated ! :bowdown:

Secondly, at the end of V.2, LongRider suggested a conversation on Oathkeeper, so here goes. I love to read about the opinions of people on the symbolism of Brienne carrying Oathkeeper in her search for the Stark girls. I must admit, while I realised the obvious link in that it was forged from Ice, it's not something I have looked into a lot, but realise it's potential, and have enjoyed the odd post that comes up on this subject. Look forward to peoples opinions.

What I will add is, she is a beautiful sword. The black + red ripples seem to catch the eye of anyone looking at it. And the scabbard is intricately designed, glittering gold, decorated with a row of Lion's heads and smouldering red rubies. The pommel has a golden Lion's head with ruby eyes. Certainly an impressive sword.

However, as you point out in your post, after being apprehended by the BWB, they used this as evidence against her. Claiming she had defected to the Lannister cause. No wonder, whenever anyone sees a Valyrian Steel blade in Westeros they are captivated, and the lavish decoration on the scabbard is not turning attention away. Awesome sword, not so awesome outcome due to holding the sword.

Could the symbolism and the explanation of what the sword represents in their minds somehow help Brienne and Jaime ? A convincing declaration of their intentions ? I don't know, so hard to call.

One thing I'd like to add, is that this blade was made by Tobho Mott, so I think it's highly probable that Gendry will recognise his work instantly. At the very least the signature, I wonder if this could come into play ? Hard to see how, but a cool tidbit, maybe Gendry could study the work and try to master the art of reworking Valyrian Steel ? Perhaps he already picked up some tips from watching Tobho ? Nice idea to discuss Oathkeeper LongRider.

I'm glad you described it for us Wizz, I've forgotten how beautiful it is.

Also, hadn't thought about the Tobho/Gendry connection! One of my main concerns is, what will LSH think if she finds out that beautiful VS sword, a Lannister sword was forged from Ice? I just don't see any good coming from that little reveal.

I'm of to relax a bit, will check in tomorrow A.M.

[Booknerd2]

Firstly, thank you Booknerd2 for your continued hard work on this thread, it's much appreciated ! :bowdown:

Secondly, at the end of V.2, LongRider suggested a conversation on Oathkeeper, so here goes. I love to read about the opinions of people on the symbolism of Brienne carrying Oathkeeper in her search for the Stark girls. I must admit, while I realised the obvious link in that it was forged from Ice, it's not something I have looked into a lot, but realise it's potential, and have enjoyed the odd post that comes up on this subject. Look forward to peoples opinions.

What I will add is, she is a beautiful sword. The black + red ripples seem to catch the eye of anyone looking at it. And the scabbard is intricately designed, glittering gold, decorated with a row of Lion's heads and smouldering red rubies. The pommel has a golden Lion's head with ruby eyes. Certainly an impressive sword.

However, as you point out in your post, this led to her being apprehended by the BWB, and they used this as evidence against her. Claiming she had defected to the Lannister cause. No wonder, whenever anyone sees a Valyrian Steel blade in Westeros they are captivated, and the lavish decoration on the scabbard is not turning attention away. Awesome sword, not so awesome outcome due to holding the sword.

Could the symbolism and the explanation of what the sword represents in their minds somehow help Brienne and Jaime ? A convincing declaration of their intentions ? I don't know, so hard to call.

One thing I'd like to add, is that this blade was made by Tobho Mott, so I think it's highly probable that Gendry will recognise his work instantly. At the very least the signature, I wonder if this could come into play ? Hard to see how, but a cool tidbit, maybe Gendry could study the work and try to master the art of reworking Valyrian Steel ? Nice idea to discuss Oathkeeper LongRider.

Thanks Wizzie!

This is great. You pointed out so much and made me think and feel a lot of things.

I had my original reading/take regarding Oathkeeper when I first read the series. Some things remain, some feels have changed.

When you love and root for the Starks so much, it hurts when you realize or feel that Oathkeeper sucks, when you first hear what was used and how it was made, and who it was re-made for. Like a candy-coated piece of crap!

It was pretty simple for me… let me use a candy analogy.

With M&M's I'm not dying over the candy shell, I want to get to the chocolate. On Halloween growing up, it was pretty cool too, instead of getting regular lollipops, which is all good, it was nice to see a Blow Pop or Tootsie Pop once in awhile….and it took a lot of work to get through the hard candy surface to the gum or candy piece.

Er, that was Oathkeeper to me. Still is…but it has changed with more thinking and philosophizing obviously. And now I have more hope too.

But what I would like eventually, and despite Brienne, who is wielding it, and her good intentions, and Jaime who is most likely still working with her, looking for the girls,etc, well, I would love for the part of Ice that lives on within, to bust out of that ruby, garnet, gold, er,whatever, lion-encrusted "case" it is in.

Now, Widow's Wail…the second sword forged from Ice, uh, it's not on them. Not sure what that would take to get both back and get Ice the way it was.

Gendry: Very good point. And he does note Needle in book 1 and can tell that it is not a crap sword, I believe. He can tell value and maker's mark. I have to look that up in the book again for wording. But I remember it very well from the show.

It would make sense. Perhaps he can recall stuff he learned or overheard with Mott, or can experiment a bit, or get info from someone/somewhere? Obviously, some scenarios are more likely than others, but hell, I will throw it all out there.

And it would be perfect for him to do it. I didn't make up the guys past, it happened. Jon Arryn, like a father to Ned, met Gendry. Ned met Gendry and Gendry is working for LS. Gendry is bud's with Arya. He can't shake those Stark connections. They just happen to him.

My greatest feel for Ice being re-forged would be a feeling that he does do something for Ned way after book 1. Sort of like: Hey, I would not sell you my bull helm, I meant no rudeness or disrespect, but let me do you one better….I can do this for you ( "fixing" Ice.)

But the beauty is that Ned understood him. He was not angry or surprised at the boy. He seemed to respect his pride, and possibly saw a bit of Robert in him too.

[Wizz-The-Smith]

Something else I liked whilst looking into this subject, when Jaime gives Oathkeeper to Brienne he has some poignant words,

'' There was a time when I would have given my right hand to wield a sword like that. Now it appears I have, so the blade is wasted on me. Take it.''

I find this a sort of conformation in Jaime's transformation in attitude, no small part to Brienne and her badgering him on his negative attitude previously. And the 'handing it to Brienne' , I feel shows his respect for her. The notion that it is wasted on him shows a respect towards the quality of the blade, and giving it to Brienne is perhaps the ultimate complement he could give.

And I suppose it shows a slightly brighter attitude towards the loss of his hand, japing and all. :P

[Booknerd2]

Something else I liked whilst looking into this subject, when Jaime gives Oathkeeper to Brienne he has some poignant words,

'' There was a time when I would have given my right hand to wield a sword like that. Now it appears I have, so the blade is wasted on me. Take it.''

I find this a sort of conformation in Jaime's transformation in attitude, no small part to Brienne and her badgering him on his negative attitude previously. And the 'handing it to Brienne' , I feel shows his respect for her. The notion that it is wasted on him shows a respect towards the quality of the blade, and giving it to Brienne is perhaps the ultimate complement he could give.

And I suppose it shows a slightly brighter attitude towards the loss of his hand, japing and all. :P

It was great. And what he said has a lot of meanings.

That sword really is an amalgamation of the past and everything it does in the future.

Ice is very old and accomplished many deeds with many Starks before the final true wielder Robb. We can even track how it was used with Ned, er, on Ned by Ilyn Payne, with Robb, and it is totally symbolic of reflecting being down and out for a bit, like the Starks, when Ice is "re-worked" and split to make two swords for Lannisters.

The future of the sword is going to be interesting.

[Wizz-The-Smith]

Thanks Wizzie!

This is great. You pointed out so much and made me think and feel a lot of things.

I had my original reading/take regarding Oathkeeper when I first read the series. Some things remain, some feels have changed.

When you love and root for the Starks so much, it hurts when you realize or feel that Oathkeeper sucks, when you first hear what was used and how it was made, and who it was re-made for. Like a candy-coated piece of crap!

It was pretty simple for me… let me use a candy analogy.

With M&M's I'm not dying over the candy shell, I want to get to the chocolate. On Halloween growing up, it was pretty cool too, instead of getting regular lollipops, which is all good, it was nice to see a Blow Pop or Tootsie Pop once in awhile….and it took a lot of work to get through the hard candy surface to the gum or candy piece.

Er, that was Oathkeeper to me. Still is…but it has changed with more thinking and philosophizing obviously. And now I have more hope too.

But what I would like eventually, and despite Brienne, who is wielding it, and her good intentions, and Jaime who is most likely still working with her, looking for the girls,etc, well, I would love for the part of Ice that lives on within, to bust out of that ruby, garnet, gold, er,whatever, lion-encrusted "case" it is in.

Now, Widow's Wail…the second sword forged from Ice, uh, it's not on them. Not sure what that would take to get both back and get Ice the way it was.

Gendry: Very good point. And he does note Needle in book 1 and can tell that it is not a crap sword, I believe. He can tell value and maker's mark. I have to look that up in the book again for wording. But I remember it very well from the show.

It would make sense. Perhaps he can recall stuff he learned or overheard with Mott, or can experiment a bit, or get info from someone/somewhere? Obviously, some scenarios are more likely than others, but hell, I will throw it all out there.

And it would be perfect for him to do it. I didn't make up the guys past, it happened. Jon Arryn, like a father to Ned, met Gendry. Ned met Gendry and Gendry is working for LS. Gendry is bud's with Arya. He can't shake those Stark connections. They just happen to him.

My greatest feel for Ice being re-forged would be a feeling that he does do something for Ned way after book 1. Sort of like: Hey, I would not sell you my bull helm, I meant no rudeness or disrespect, but let me do you one better….I can do this for you ( "fixing" Ice.)

But the beauty is that Ned understood him. He was not angry or surprised at the boy. He seemed to respect his pride, and possibly saw a bit of Robert in him too.

1st bold ] Thanks Bookie ! I was unsure on this subject, but some homework paid off !

2nd bold ] Ha ! Agreed. It sucks that such a cool looking, and under the surface of it, symbolic sword, with Stark based objectives, has such negative overtones.

3rd bold ] Agreed, I like your idea of Gendry re-forging both Oathkeeper + Widow's Wail into something representing Ice again, that would be sweet.

4th bold ] Great idea ! Sort of giving something back after all he has experienced with the Stark's.

[Wizz-The-Smith]

It was great. And what he said has a lot of meanings.

That sword really is an amalgamation of the past and everything it does in the future.

Ice is very old and accomplished many deeds with many Starks before the final true wielder Robb. We can even track how it was used with Ned, er, on Ned by Ilyn Payne, with Robb, and it is totally symbolic of reflecting being down and out for a bit, like the Starks, when Ice is "re-worked" and split to make two swords for Lannisters.

The future of the sword is going to be interesting.

It certainly is ! The history of this sword is mind boggling. Although one interesting thing I've noted when reading the odd thing about the Stark family Greatsword, is that it is obviously a Valyrian Steel Sword, and they were not made until the rise of the great Valyrian empire. The Greatsword '' Ice '' has been in the Stark family for a lot longer than that, I forget the exact details without doing some homework.

So I wonder exactly how old this Ice was ? And where is the old one ? Could it make a comeback as a replacement for current/not so current Ice ? Ha ! Probably not, it certainly wouldn't be VS. Gendry re-forging the two swords mentioned seems a better option.

I do hold out a small amount of hope that the symbolism in the sword towards the Stark girls and the staunch dedication towards finding them, may help in some way. Probably heart ruling my head, but hey, ever the optimist. :D

[Booknerd2]

Yeah, we see this, which to me was one of the most heart-breaking images burnt in my mind.

LS holding Robb's crown in her hand and looking at it. If she knew what Oathbreaker was….holy cow. Best she doesn't for now.

I could be wrong, but I look at the name and hope "Oathkeeper" has a shelf-life. It does what it has to do, repurposed for a bit, still for Starks, but somehow the bedazzler Lannister lion heads and crap gets melted down and who knows, Widow's Wail is a long shot, but it maybe down the road can be Ice again.

Also, I like two things I took out that I noticed: It makes me feel better and it separates Lannister from Stark for me.

1. Ice was long and heavy. Old and storied. Ned and the tough ass/noble Starks can wield it. Born to wield it. It weighs heavy on the hands and arms and body, but so did some of the deeds, and so does the duties and responsibilities that Ned remarks about. From book one, the beheading of the "NW deserter." It was duty and honor for Ned, but he wasn't happy about it. What the Starks can do with one great sword, the Lannisters have to split it to wield two. Translation: They suck, and they can't hack it, and they are just not Starks. Very symbolic to me. Not just a two-from one Lannister sword thing.

2. Also with Ice, it was a very simple, minimalist design. The priorities at forging time, were so not what the Lannisters did with it at its "death." Not flashy and showy with the jewels, lion-heads and crap and the silly names the Lannisters give the two incarnations separately. Ok, even, Oathkeeper isn't too bad and Brienne is putting it to good service. Widow's Wail is a joke, it was never wielded for any good, never battle-hardened, never with any history or usage such as Ice. A pale and poor comparison. And the name is stupid. That is why re-birth of the Starks for me and coming back on top, would also be sweet if Ice is somewhat reborn again too one day to reflect that.

And it is funny. I can read this and you can tell I am still burned, and a woman scorned. LOL! When I read what happened to Ice and those two swords appeared in the books, I was livid. Livid! One of the things that have pissed me off the most in the series, and true, most of them are with Lannisters, uh, and Bolton, and Freys, of course, and other stuff, but I won't digress.

It still pisses me off! The gall! The nerve! Get your own goddamn swords! LOL! It was the slap in the face that reverberated, like what was done to Robb and Grey Wind. The swords was another, let me dance on your grave and celebrate your destruction moment from the Lannisters.

Well, they thought. The laughs are temporary.

[Wizz-The-Smith]

#3! Squeee!

I'm glad you described it for us Wizz, I've forgotten how beautiful it is.

Also, hadn't thought about the Tobho/Gendry connection! One of my main concerns is, what will LSH think if she finds out that beautiful VS sword, a Lannister sword was forged from Ice? I just don't see any good coming from that little reveal.

I'm of to relax a bit, will check in tomorrow A.M.

It is a beautiful sword, there is a fair amount of text that describes it, also next to Widow's Wail, so we get a great description.

The Tobho/Gendry connection is cool. And as for any sword reveal, I've stated in previous posts, although I appreciate it doesn't look good, I hold out hope in the integrity of Brienne + Jaime's quest being a catalyst for understanding. Probably wishful thinking. :D

Look forward to your thoughts. :P

[Wizz-The-Smith]

Yeah, we see this, which to me was one of the most heart-breaking images burnt in my mind.

LS holding Robb's crown in her hand and looking at it. If she knew what Oathbreaker was….holy cow. Best she doesn't for now.

I could be wrong, but I look at the name and hope "Oathkeeper" has a shelf-life. It does what it has to do, repurposed for a bit, still for Starks, but somehow the bedazzler Lannister lion heads and crap gets melted down and who knows, Widow's Wail is a long shot, but it maybe down the road can be Ice again.

Also, I like two things I took out that I noticed: It makes me feel better and it separates Lannister from Stark for me.

1. Ice was long and heavy. Old and storied. Ned and the tough ass/noble Starks can wield it. Born to wield it. It weighs heavy on the hands and arms and body, but so did some of the deeds, and so does the duties and responsibilities that Ned remarks about. From book one, the beheading of the "NW deserter." It was duty and honor for Ned, but he wasn't happy about it. What the Starks can do with one great sword, the Lannisters have to split it to wield two. Translation: They suck, and they can't hack it, and they are just not Starks. Very symbolic to me. Not just a two-from one Lannister sword thing.

2. Also with Ice, it was a very simple, minimalist design. The priorities at forging time, were so not what the Lannisters did with it at its "death." Not flashy and showy with the jewels, lion-heads and crap and the silly names the Lannisters give the two incarnations separately. Ok, even, Oathkeeper isn't too bad and Brienne is putting it to good service. Widow's Wail is a joke, it was never wielded for any good, never battle-hardened, never with any history or usage such as Ice. A pale and poor comparison. And the name is stupid. That is why re-birth of the Starks for me and coming back on top, would also be sweet if Ice is somewhat reborn again too one day to reflect that.

And it is funny. I can read this and you can tell I am still burned, and a woman scorned. LOL! When I read what happened to Ice and those two swords appeared in the books, I was livid. Livid! One of the things that have pissed me off the most in the series, and true, most of them are with Lannisters, uh, and Bolton, and Freys, of course, and other stuff, but I won't digress.

It still pisses me off! The gall! The nerve! Get your own goddamn swords! LOL! It was the slap in the face that reverberated, like what was done to Robb and Grey Wind. The swords was another, let me dance on your grave and celebrate your destruction moment from the Lannisters.

Well, they thought. The laughs are temporary.

1st bold ] I love this ! Well said ! Totally agree with everything you've said. And yes it would be the ultimate in 'sweet' if Ice was somehow re-forged, and reflects the re-emergence of the Stark's.

And great to get a '' heart on sleeve '' reaction to the melting down of Ice, I felt your pain reading that Bookie, as I feel your emotive and descriptive posts when posing a #question on the thread. I agree it was hard to take. [ The burning of the Wolf skin scabbard in the show only added to the woe ]

2nd bold ] Really enjoyed that post, and a great way to finish.

[LongRider]

Great insights you two.

Tywin had Ice melted down into 2 swords. He felt he had the right as the Starks had be vanquished and most likely the house was extinguished. But the destruction brought to House Stark was through underhanded and dishonest means. It wasn't a fair fight. And others, like Theon, helped this along with their own attacks on House Stark. So the name 'Oathkeeper' is quite ironic as the sword it was created from was not honestly won. Brienne does not know this and there are folks in the Riverlands who might find this back story of her sword very interesting. That story could be trouble.

Eddard Stark made many mistakes in KL it's true, but his friend Robert did him no favors. Many in Westeros understand that his execution was ordered by a spoiled boy playing king and Ned's wife, son and bannermen were slaughtered at time when they should have been protected under by one of Westeros's most treasured values : guest rights.

If Gendry gets a good look at the sword he should without a doubt recognize Mott's work and mark. As a smithy he knows that VS is very hard to come by and raw stock for new swords just does not exist. Will he question where this shiny new sword came from? Carrying the sword made from Ice in the presence of LSH is a hidden danger. If Brienne takes Jaime to the BWB will the truth come out?

I don't know if Ice can be reforged, but perhaps, the two swords can be reworked to fit the hands of living Starks; Rickon perhaps and Arya. She'll out grow Needle some day and may have a daughter to pass it on to. (I hope!)

[Wizz-The-Smith]

If Gendry gets a good look at the sword he should without a doubt recognize Mott's work and mark. As a smithy he knows that VS is very hard to come by and raw stock for new swords just does not exist. Will he question where this shiny new sword came from? Carrying the sword made from Ice in the presence of LSH is a hidden danger. If Brienne takes Jaime to the BWB will the truth come out?

I don't know if Ice can be reforged, but perhaps, the two swords can be reworked to fit the hands of living Starks; Rickon perhaps and Arya. She'll out grow Needle some day and may have a daughter to pass it on to. (I hope!)

Good point about there not being much VS around to re-forge anything. Add to that it is a reasonably well known fact that the Lannister's VS sword had been lost years ago, leaving them as one of the major houses without one. And this is obviously very Lannister with all the decoration. Where did the Lannisters get this VS ? Agreed, people will ask questions.

I like the idea of reworking the current sword/swords into something a Stark could use, Rickon or Arya or both would be ideal.

[Le Cygne]

#12 Dog ---

Some thoughts about Dog, to start things off... Septon Meribald wanders the Riverlands, ministering to the people there, and Dog is his companion. In AFFC, Dog, like Stranger, tells us the gravedigger is Sandor. We've talked about how Stranger and Sandor have similar natures, but Dog shares some of Sandor's qualities, too:

Both are rough and big:

Dog: a huge, shaggy creature, ten stone of dog at least

Sandor: a tall knight with black hair and burn scars on his face... he was muscled like a bull (Arya's description)

Both are independent:

Dog: "Who does he belong to?" "Why, to himself..."

Sandor: "You're Joffrey's dog." "My own dog now."

Both go by dog names:

Dog: "As to his name, he has not told me what it is. I call him Dog." (Septon Meribald)

Sandor: also known as the Hound, the gravedigger has not told the others his name

Both are protective:

Dog: “Dog keeps me safe upon the roads, even in such trying times as these. Neither wolf nor outlaw dare molest me when Dog is at my side.” (Septon Meribald)

Sandor: I would be gladder if it were the Hound, Sansa thought. Harsh as he was, she did not believe Sandor Clegane would let any harm come to her. (Sansa)

Dog goes up to Sandor, who scratches his ear (where Sandor was injured in the fight with his brother's men):

On the upper slopes they saw three boys driving sheep, and higher still they passed a lichyard where a brother bigger than Brienne was struggling to dig a grave...

The gravedigger lowered his head. When Dog went to sniff him he dropped his spade and scratched his ear.

Dog sniffs where Sandor was injured:

"There are bloodstains on the floor over there where Dog is sniffing. They’ve been scrubbed, but the blood soaked deep into the wood, and there's no getting it out."

"This is the inn where Sandor Clegane killed three of his brother's men," she reminded him.

Where is Dog? We don't know. He was last heard barking during Brienne's fight, then Septon Meribald was sent on his way:

Brienne could hear Dog barking, and men were shouting all about her, and between the claps of thunder she heard the clash of steel on steel.

Next time we see Dog, will we see Sandor? Sansa, who thinks all the time about dogs, as well as a certain Hound, just after that chapter:

I will dream a sweet dream, and when I wake there will be dogs barking, women gossiping beside the well, swords ringing in the yard.

[Le Cygne]

Saw some more of these videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wP0kdkzy2nc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDPnwmozHH0

[Booknerd2]

#12 Dog ---

Some thoughts about Dog, to start things off... Septon Meribald wanders the Riverlands, ministering to the people there, and Dog is his companion. In AFFC, Dog, like Stranger, tells us the gravedigger is Sandor. We've talked about how Stranger and Sandor have similar natures, but Dog shares some of Sandor's qualities, too:

Both are rough and big:

Dog: a huge, shaggy creature, ten stone of dog at least

Sandor: a tall knight with black hair and burn scars on his face... he was muscled like a bull (Arya's description)

Both are independent:

Dog: "Who does he belong to?" "Why, to himself..."

Sandor: "You're Joffrey's dog." "My own dog now."

Both go by dog names:

Dog: "As to his name, he has not told me what it is. I call him Dog." (Septon Meribald)

Sandor: also known as the Hound, the gravedigger has not told the others his name

Both are protective:

Dog: “Dog keeps me safe upon the roads, even in such trying times as these. Neither wolf nor outlaw dare molest me when Dog is at my side.” (Septon Meribald)

Sandor: I would be gladder if it were the Hound, Sansa thought. Harsh as he was, she did not believe Sandor Clegane would let any harm come to her. (Sansa)

Dog goes up to Sandor, who scratches his ear (where Sandor was injured in the fight with his brother's men):

Dog sniffs where Sandor was injured:

Where is Dog? We don't know. He was last heard barking during Brienne's fight, then Septon Meribald was sent on his way:

Next time we see Dog, will we see Sandor? Sansa, who thinks all the time about dogs, as well as a certain Hound, just after that chapter:

Dog has been an enigma for me. I never thought about any of this. Most of my time is spent loving Big Nyms and Stranger. I think I maybe had two thoughts about Dog while reading the series:

1. He is a dog named Dog.

2. He most certainly pointed out to us evidence that Sandor is the Novice Brother on the QI.

It ended there. This is awesome. Thank you, Le Cygne.

Ha! I love how he sniffs Sandor and gets his ear scratched, and also sniffs the blood where the bar brawl was. Another nice gift, Dog! No way in hell I would have noticed that.

I think Dog made it. Totally barking sensing and seeing trouble. And that I am not clear on. Meribald bounces, but we don't know if Dog stayed behind or left? I can't remember or it wasn't made clear, and we are to assume he went with him?

I like that Dog is a blank slate without a name. Just the generic dog, probably on purpose. Maybe, I am thinking, to make the distinction and similarities even clearer to Sandor. No Fido, Prince, Lad…nothing. All of the author's other series animals, well, the prominent ones, have names and they tell a lot as a part of a story of the animal and their personality.

[Wizz-The-Smith]

Great posts about Dog ! It's nice to have it in one post Le Cygne, thanks.

The only thing I would add is something I read on the wiki that Dog oft barks back when spoken too. I loved that, got a great picture of an intelligent companion able to have some semblance of conversation, or at least help to keep Meribald entertained whilst wandering the RL's.

Nice similarities with Dog + Sandor as well. :)

[Le Cygne]

I think Dog made it. Totally barking sensing and seeing trouble. And that I am not clear on. Meribald bounces, but we don't know if Dog stayed behind or left? I can't remember or it wasn't made clear, and we are to assume he went with him?

I'm taking it that Dog made it... I think Septon Meribald must have come when Dog started barking, as soon as they showed up, when Brienne was at the forge with Gendry.

There's another part where Brienne asks what happened to Dog, but Gendry thinks she means the Hound...

There was also a bit with Sansa feeding Lady under the table, then Septon Meribald was feeding Dog the same way. "A direwolf is a savage beast... Get her a dog, she'll be happier for it." (that went down nearby)...

The only thing I would add is something I read on the wiki that Dog oft barks back when spoken too. I loved that, got a great picture of an intelligent companion able to have some semblance of conversation, or at least help to keep Meribald entertained whilst wandering the RL's.

Nice similarities with Dog + Sandor as well. :)

I love that, too, and I do think the author is going there with showing another side to Sandor, that hopefully we'll see more of...

Also this, the Elder Brother news network:

“The smallfolk call it the crossroads inn. Elder Brother told me that two of Masha Heddle’s nieces have opened it to trade once again.”

[Booknerd2]

It is hilarious, painstaking, and brilliant…the lines put in with thought in this series. And I know we've all discussed patterns, word/symbolism, repetition. Representation of things….reflecting something else.

Some examples:

There is the tidbit about marrying a blacksmith. Seemingly a throwaway comment. Still funny that Arya meets a blacksmith and hits it off with him on a buddy road trip. He has met her parents. Robert making the comment about joining Stark and Baratheon.

I don't care that they are separated currently, I would be a fool not to keep all of this and many other comments or pieces of evidence on file in my brain. And, er, in my write ups.

Brienne makes an allusion to Heddle, maybe being batgirl, and Hyle makes his second remark about marriage between Gendry probably marrying Heddle. And it is not love, when he refers to her it is, oh, well probably, everybody has to marry somebody, and they are conveniently breathing the same air right about now. It is the Brienne part that you have to read between the lines with.

For Sandor:

The "get her a dog she'll be happier with it." Sandor is someone else's dog, he does become "Sansa's man" meaning he is loyal to her politically and emotionally and siding with her, and Joff gets replaced. Sandor makes a choice to throw his allegiance and affections her way, despite the heavy costs. And he still tries with Arya. He wants her to reach the Starks, but hell, he wants to reach them too. He then also becomes "her dog." But then Sandor, to be the best he can be for her, really needs this time when he straightens up and becomes his own man for awhile, and then he can be her "dog" again. I hope, and there is so much pointing that way.

Even all pointed out with Dog.

And the last part, I think is tied to all the allusions to someone having someone. Robert saying Sansa would be better off with a dog, the literal Dog named dog and his interactions with Meribald and Gravedigger (Sandor), all the Sansa material and her connection with that old dog, all the initial series stuff with Sandor being Joff's dog.

It seems the unwavering, unconditional love and loyalty that animals give to us, well, the author is using that as examples for a human doing this for another human.

The thought that went into this to make it fit. The Cleganes sigil was designated dogs with a backstory, Sandor has the nickname and helm, and everything after that, there are many examples that connect to it all.

Too many to be ignored.

The funny thing is that Sandor and even Gendry only have their book 4 cameo appearances, but it is instances like these, were you realize they are really more on the page everywhere then meets the eye casually at first, after they seem to top out in book 3 and before that two and even in scenes were they don't appear.

And so many.

For chrissakes, like hell the Brienne being hung up on Renly running bit was not planned out early to help with the Gendry identity reveal later on too. Sure, it tells the story of her making her name and rep and becoming a part of the Rainbow Guard, meeting Cat and all that entailed, and leaving us with this big cliffhanger as she has to balance Uncat and Jaime. There are the big things and the important subtle little things too. I don't think I will never not be in awe of the attention to details and ability to texturize, mutli-layer, and the results are outstanding. Because it is years later and still things pop out.

The big one today was Le Cygne and Dog. I feel like a fool. I thought it was great and was some brownie points for my hope that Sandor/Gravedigger was true. He pets a dog and it was a piece of evidence, then…there is this other stuff I never noticed.

But I love the sniff at the Inn. That is brilliant, and again, tying it to Sandor through the use of a dog. And because it is just a dog, nothing complicated there, I should have been paying attention, the author was checking…lol! and I dropped the ball. and this is just one of many instances were this occurs.

Really, it is like: Don't pay close attention at your own risk.