The Riverlands Web V.3

[LongRider]

I'm not saying he knows, but he picks up on things indirectly quite often. There's nothing direct about this story. But I think the flying repetition is notable, and he catches her before she can fall, it's almost like she wants to fly, but isn't ready yet. There is, of course, sexual symbolism there, this is all happening when she becomes a woman.

This is really the key to the Hound and Sansa's story. And to be able to understand it, one needs to learn to look at it indirectly. The term 'Little Bird' can reference alot, as can allusions to dogs, wolves and others types of allusions. This 'indirectness' has mothered many a crackpot, but if one can learn, or be guided (like me), to delve deeper, then the story becomes more in view.

What's important here is not so much that the Hound can sense that Sansa's a warg, but that he picks up on many subtle things about her, our clue to pay attention to these as well.

:thumbsup:

[Booknerd2]

No name Dog went up to no-name gravedigger and gave him a sniff and received a scratch on the ear. Now Dog and dog have been formally introduced. Will they meet again?

When the gravedigger flings the dirt at Brienne and party Brother Narbert tells him "Be more careful there. Septon M might have gotten a mouthful of dirt." No name is mentioned here and so the gravedigger remains without. When referred to later he's called "Our gravedigger..."

(And people wonder what the EB is hiding? It's all in plain sight)

The names and words are interesting.

Sandor, Hound, Gravedigger….next? Back to Sandor with touches of the old and new. The GD gets dropped.

Gendry, Bastard, Smith, Bull, Knight/Ser of the Hollow Hill….next? Still Gendry and the rest, but what is hanging is the bull staying or leaving, the stag conundrum, and where this knightly thing goes.

And Sansa and Arya have been going through it too.

[Booknerd2]

I was also thinking about Sandor and his animal names, he only calls Sansa by her name twice, and never calls "the little sister" by her name. Sansa is "little bird" most often (other times there's a pretty thrown in there), and "the little sister" is some variation of wolf (she-wolf, wolf-girl, wolf-bitch).

Little bird is because she's pretty and sings, even the first time when he was teasing her, he called her that when she patted his shoulder while he was wearing the red dog sweater, it's a pet name. He calls her that six times during the Blackwater scene, the author emphasizes it, "Little bird," he said once more. So yeah, big dog has it bad for little bird.

But she is also a warg. He refers to her flying: "flying down the serpentine"... "thinks she has wings"... "now fly away"... "flew away"... And he catches her before she can fall over and over again, then when she's with Sweetrobin (his stand-in for pretend kisses), there's a callback to the rescue, and she's afraid she's going to fall, but she doesn't.

Also, he calls Robb "young wolf"...

He calls the rapists rats:

"Brave? A dog doesn’t need courage to chase off rats. They had me thirty to one, and not a man of them dared face me."

And Boros a toad (the heavy hand on the shoulder thing is yet another thing GRRM borrowed for their story from Jane Eyre, along with little bird, quiet island, moody black horse, burned by fire, ferocity, cheek caressing, manly tears, hearing his voice, giving her his cloak, etc.):

"That one is nothing to fear, girl." The Hound laid a heavy hand on her shoulder. "Paint stripes on a toad, he does not become a tiger."

The Lannisters are lions (after the she-wolf wished for "a lion-killing dog"):

"What’s a dog to do with lions, I ask you?"

Just my initial reaction…it is either Sandor or the author or both. Sandor is still afraid to get personal, but he tries to with nicknames. He doesn't really call them by their name in a noticeable way. It is at the point that (Oh, and I believe we will get it one day) That it is going to mean something when he does one day actually refer to them as Sansa and/or Arya. If he is looking for them and or referring to them he will of course use Sansa or Arya. Bird and Wolfbitch, no…lol! Maybe even Lady Sansa or Lady Arya. But it will be cool when it is on that basis when he can call them their name to their face. And I doubt either of the girls at that point will be calling him Hound either.

The bold. Let's get the laugh in, guys! Thirty to one, and no help from Stranger who "conveniently" ditched him. LOL! Ah, still funny...

Their are statements and distinctions made with people through all types of animals. Good and bad. Humor or serious.

I agree the "Little Bird" means many things. Term of endearment, reflecting her caged bird status,etc. But I always thought his restraint in saying Sansa mean something. Technically, I think, he should be calling her Lady Sansa, but he never does. He does push it continuously with the Little Bird.

Sandor and Gendry make it very clear they think rapists are dirt. I am working on the update to RR and he refuses to let Arya go and scout without him. And that jerk in the Peach got schooled quick.

[LongRider]

Lovely!

We see the Hound metamorphose into a dog. He becomes more protective like Dog, loyal and like Dog, more independent until a break must be made. Then slowly, he learns to care for one needs care at time when she would just as well give up. He was helpful at the small village and then slowly lost his helm, his armor and nearly his life. And he begged for mercy and received a mercy he didn't expect.

Now the dog is healing up, but like Dog he's independent, he has work to finish and his pack; Stranger, is kicking and raring to go. ,

I just wanted to mention I reread the chapter in SOS of the Hound and Arya at the RW. This is where the Hound lost his sword, it broke in half when he stabbed a Frey with it. He then grabbed the axe the Frey had, beaned Arya with it, scooped her up and he and Stranger high tailed it outa there.

Certainly there were more important losses at the RW than that of course. But here is where he started to lose things. He lost his sword and his plans for the future at the same time.

Edt: First he lost his gold courtesy of the BWB, then the sword. There's bits of the Hound's identity strewn all over the Riverlands! :(

[Wizz-The-Smith]

Great discussion ! I think I've mentioned before, that these are the sorts of things I frustratingly miss, but enjoy reading all the opinions and explanations, that this thread in particular has to offer. Thanks, it certainly fleshes out my understanding of these huge books.

This chat has obviously helped with the similarities between Dog + Sandor being subtly slotted into the text. My understanding of Sandor has grown over time, mainly due to this thread, but to see some of the parallels with Dog was new to me, and an enjoyable read. :)

[Booknerd2]

I just wanted to mention I reread the chapter in SOS of the Hound and Arya at the RW. This is where the Hound lost his sword, it broke in half when he stabbed a Frey with it. He then grabbed the axe the Frey had, beaned Arya with it, scooped her up and he and Stranger high tailed it outa there.

Certainly there were more important losses at the RW than that of course. But here is where he started to lose things. He lost his sword and his plans for the future at the same time.

Edt: First he lost his gold courtesy of the BWB, then the sword. There's bits of the Hound's identity strewn all over the Riverlands! :(

That was always a big thing for me. The Hound trying to get Arya out of being sad after RW. He was in bad shape too, but he thought of her. That was a big blow to both of them.

And I still think it was fortuitous that he met the BWB beforehand. Good that they have all met already, Beric felt he had more to do and should be left alone, and all would be working for a common purpose with Sansa and Arya in mind.

[Booknerd2]

Great discussion ! I think I've mentioned before, that these are the sorts of things I frustratingly miss, but enjoy reading all the opinions and explanations, that this thread in particular has to offer. Thanks, it certainly fleshes out my understanding of these huge books.

This chat has obviously helped with the similarities between Dog + Sandor being subtly slotted into the text. My understanding of Sandor has grown over time, mainly due to this thread, but to see some of the parallels with Dog was new to me, and an enjoyable read. :)

I am so happy too for the #12 post. I looked to Dog for the Sandor QI tip and left it at that. There is so much more I never picked up on. And I want to thank LeCygne again for the post.

I've also been sort of out for the past day or two. I am just about to update on RR too.

[LongRider]

I cut and paste from another thread:

April 15, 2008

Future Appearances from Several Characters
[Willl Hot Pie, Gendry, Nymeria, Rickon and Shaggy be seen again or mentioned in A Dance with Dragons, or later in the series?]
Later in the series? Yes, to all of them.
In DANCE? Yes to some, no to others.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Future_Appearances_from_Several_Characters/I'v

[Booknerd2]

I cut and paste from another thread:

April 15, 2008

Future Appearances from Several Characters

[Willl Hot Pie, Gendry, Nymeria, Rickon and Shaggy be seen again or mentioned in A Dance with Dragons, or later in the series?]

Later in the series? Yes, to all of them.

In DANCE? Yes to some, no to others.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Future_Appearances_from_Several_Characters/I'v

Thank you. I remember seeing that the first time a long time ago.

You know when I saw the first three I could not contain my glee. LOL! All I can have is hope.

[LongRider]

Pasted it here just for you Bookie, I know how much Gendry, Hot Pie and Big Nyms mean to you.

:)

[Wizz-The-Smith]

I am so happy too for the #12 post. I looked to Dog for the Sandor QI tip and left it at that. There is so much more I never picked up on. And I want to thank LeCygne again for the post.

I've also been sort of out for the past day or two. I am just about to update on RR too.

Agreed, great work Le Cygne ! I too have been in and out the last couple of days, missed some discussion, but just as cool to catch up.

[Wizz-The-Smith]

I cut and paste from another thread:

April 15, 2008

Future Appearances from Several Characters

[Willl Hot Pie, Gendry, Nymeria, Rickon and Shaggy be seen again or mentioned in A Dance with Dragons, or later in the series?]

Later in the series? Yes, to all of them.

In DANCE? Yes to some, no to others.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Future_Appearances_from_Several_Characters/I'v

Excellent ! So we have confirmation of their reappearance, and all of them at that. Makes this thread and understanding the people/text, all the more important to me.

Edit : And the Direwolves obviously !

[Karmarni]

Booknerd2 - Hot Pie! :)

But she is also a warg. He refers to her flying: "flying down the serpentine"... "thinks she has wings"... "now fly away"... "flew away"... And he catches her before she can fall over and over again, then when she's with Sweetrobin (his stand-in for pretend kisses), there's a callback to the rescue, and she's afraid she's going to fall, but she doesn't.

I really like this. All the Sansa flying descriptions. Fascinating.

I read the Hound and his descriptive way of talking as his 'naturalist' way of expressing himself as opposed to the highborn, more stilted way of speaking. That he's the kind of guy who would give nicknames to people. Also, he spent a lot of time telling stories, a natural storyteller, this one. And darkly poetic, if you look at it from that perspective.

Dog the dog. Good going on all the dog posts! Dog seems to bark when GRRM wants to use the bark as emphasis of what was just said. Kind of like his use of italics. He uses italics when the character is speaking and puts stress on the word, but he also uses italics for the reader to note what's in italics with care.

I think Septon Meribald will return to the QI (with Dog, fingers crossed):

River-born and river-bred and he’s served here all his life. He’s departing on the morrow to make his circuit, and he always calls at Saltpans.

Here's a few more interesting dog examples in the story:

“You must train them as well,” their father said. “You must train them. The kennelmaster will have nothing to do with these monsters, I promise you that. And the gods help you if you neglect them, or brutalize them, or train them badly. These are not dogs to beg for treats and slink off at a kick. A direwolf will rip a man’s arm off his shoulder as easily as a dog will kill a rat. Are you sure you want this?”

The above, Ned, in AGoT.

Frustrated, Arya threw down the brush. “Bad wolf!” she shouted.
Sansa couldn’t help but smile a little. The kennelmaster once told her that an animal takes after its master. She gave Lady a quick little hug. Lady licked her cheek. Sansa giggled.

Of course, Sansa is introduced in her first chapter with Lady and Septa Mordane telling her not to feed her dog at the table. This is similar to what is said in ADwD from Kevan Lannister about the Hound.

This following part is interesting because it includes our Riverlands characters inferences for Nymeria and wolves/dogs:

“I have been spared that, Seven save me, but I have heard them in the night, and more than once. So many voices... a sound to curdle a man’s blood. It even set Dog to shivering, and Dog has killed a dozen wolves.” He ruffled the dog’s head. “Some will tell you that they are demons. They say the pack is led by a monstrous she-wolf, a stalking shadow grim and grey and huge. They will tell you that she has been known to bring aurochs down all by herself, that no trap nor snare can hold her, that she fears neither steel nor fire, slays any wolf that tries to mount her, and devours no other flesh but man.”

The she-wolf as a reference not just to Nyms

but to Arya. Like in the Mercy chapter. She slays (interesting word choice for an animal) and "no other flesh but man."

Dog's a little worried about the wolves, but he's killed them. Get's his head ruffled, just like Arya and Jon and Sansa and her blind dog.

Highting "stalking shadow" as a reference to the shadows that the Hound seems to come out of and as to the

way that Arya seems to be going about killing - she's 'sneaky'; I'm not meaning that in a bad way. :)

Oh, and note what she doesn't fear - neither steel nor fire.

Aurochs - second paragraph of first Sansa chapter:

“I’ve never seen an aurochs,” Sansa said, feeding a piece of bacon to Lady under the table. The direwolf took it from her hand, as delicate as a queen.

And just noting as an aside the "piece of bacon". Funny enough, and I have no idea why, GRRM has decided to use swine as a motif with Sandor. No idea about that aurochs either, but it's a tantalizing thing nonetheless. Will Sansa see an aurochs?

[Le Cygne]

More animal quotes:

Mott, about Gendry: "A smart boy, but stubborn. That helm... the others call him bullheaded, so he threw it in their teeth."

Jaime, about the Blackfish: A moonless night, bored guards, a black fish in a black river floating quietly downstream.

Brienne, about Jaime: It was one thing to slay a lion, another to hack his paw off and leave him broken and bewildered.

[LongRider]

“You must train them as well,” their father said. “You must train them. The kennelmaster will have nothing to do with these monsters, I promise you that. And the gods help you if you neglect them, or brutalize them, or train them badly. These are not dogs to beg for treats and slink off at a kick. A direwolf will rip a man’s arm off his shoulder as easily as a dog will kill a rat. Are you sure you want this?”

Interesting, when Sandor saved Sansa from rapists he cut off a man's arm and later told Sansa;

"Brave? A dog doesn't need courage to chase off rats. They had me thirty to one, and not a man of them dared face me."

Hmmmm, he meet's the direwolf and dog criteria both!

[Le Cygne]

I really like this. All the Sansa flying descriptions. Fascinating.

I read the Hound and his descriptive way of talking as his 'naturalist' way of expressing himself as opposed to the highborn, more stilted way of speaking. That he's the kind of guy who would give nicknames to people. Also, he spent a lot of time telling stories, a natural storyteller, this one. And darkly poetic, if you look at it from that perspective.

That's true, the affinity for animals is part of who he is. I don't think that will change. I think he'll always call Sansa little bird, too. One nice thing about the show, the way Rory says little bird, you know what it really means.

I also think Sansa will likely keep calling him the Hound, that's part of the Beauty and the Beast thing. At the end of Cocteau's version, Beauty calls the Beast, "My Beast."

I also like when Sansa says why do you let them call you a dog, and he stops and gets all chatty, telling the story of his grandfather. He's sort of like Charlie Brown's Christmas tree, with a little love, he's not bad at all.

I had originally included the she-wolf quote in the Dog post, and my rejoinder for Sandor was:

"Do you know what dogs do to wolves?"

[Le Cygne]

The two times he called her Sansa. Both times I think he just wanted to say her name. The first time, she was looking at his broad shoulders, and of course, noticing every detail of his cloak. Curtly! He probably was wagging his tail inside. :lol:

In the back of the royal box, Sandor Clegane stood at guard, his hands resting on his swordbelt. The white cloak of the Kingsguard was draped over his broad shoulders and fastened with a jeweled brooch, the snowy cloth looking somehow unnatural against his brown roughspun tunic and studded leather jerkin. "Lady Sansa," the Hound announced curtly when he saw her.

Then later:

"Didn't you ever have a brother you wanted to kill?" He laughed again. "Or maybe a sister?" He must have seen something in her face then, for he leaned closer. "Sansa. That's it, isn't it? The wolf bitch wants to kill the pretty bird."

Third time will be really good, I'll wager.

[Booknerd2]

For everyone:

Yes, when I saw that…the Big three….I was super excited and relieved. To me, they are 3 that are important to Arya.

Now my dream scenarios:

Possibly Lommy was the first, but Arya might have two run-ins with the rest of the Pack, Lommy kicking it off, as trigger, his memory. Hot Pie, in general, is a baker and not a fighter. He is a yielder. LOL! He is NOT Arya and Gendry. He will not leave the Inn unless by discovery, taken, or he is harbored. My guess is stuff gets bad there like all over the Riverlands and the BWB has to go there, run into him if he gets taken, I don't know, but something and he could go with them because Gendry is there. Or Arya could somehow get to Hot Pie first, and it hits her again that he is her Pack. That would be funny as all hell and moving too. Total speculation, of course. Big Nyms will get to Arya or she to her one day. That is another issue. Gendry and Arya…. I think wherever he lands after the BWB stuff implodes, it seems like it will, or faction/branch off again, and after the reveal. I think by the time he sees her again, he will know who he is and all Jaime/Brienne stuff would have been settled however the dice may fall. But I do like the idea that before that, his memory will hit her too, like it has hit him in 4. She either sees Dunsen or the helm and it strikes that chord within her.

With those three, it is the separations that mean so much as I just covered for Re-Thinking. So it is totally on my brain today.

[Booknerd2]

The two times he called her Sansa. Both times I think he just wanted to say her name. The first time, she was looking at his broad shoulders, and of course, noticing every detail of his cloak. Curtly! He probably was wagging his tail inside. :lol:

Then later:

Third time will be really good, I'll wager.

Ok, I goofed in an earlier post the other day. I did not remember that he did call her Lady Sansa once, but it was formal.

[Booknerd2]

That's true, the affinity for animals is part of who he is. I don't think that will change. I think he'll always call Sansa little bird, too. One nice thing about the show, the way Rory says little bird, you know what it really means.

I also think Sansa will likely keep calling him the Hound, that's part of the Beauty and the Beast thing. At the end of Cocteau's version, Beauty calls the Beast, "My Beast."

I also like when Sansa says why do you let them call you a dog, and he stops and gets all chatty, telling the story of his grandfather. He's sort of like Charlie Brown's Christmas tree, with a little love, he's not bad at all.

I had originally included the she-wolf quote in the Dog post, and my rejoinder for Sandor was:

"Do you know what dogs do to wolves?"

I loved that. He seemed to take pride in his grandfather and got into the whole thing.