The Riverlands Web V.3

[Wizz-The-Smith]

Typical of horse people, we recognize horses and remember their names, but their owners and riders? Not so much. "Uhhh, what's your name again?" Also, why would a 'poxy peasant' have such a high quality animal?

Exactly, and the importance and relationship with the horse was a necessary, everyday occurrence, they were part of the family. So their eye for such detail would have been extremely sharp.

It sounds like it was an obsession or a hobby of the knights, which would make sense. A fine Knight should have a fine horse, as he should have a fine blade, and these are the parameters set for what most would describe as a minimum to gain credibility.

[Le Cygne]

Sandor Speak: by Mad Madam Mim

• Fuck = the
• Fuck your ser = Please, call me Sandor
• Bloody hells. Bloody hells. I’d skin you alive for a cup of wine, girl = I'm slightly parched
• You look almost a woman… face, teats, and you’re taller too, almost… ah, you’re still a stupid little bird = you look pretty today
• Do you like wine, little bird? True wine? A flagon of sour red, dark as blood, all a man needs. Or a woman = fancy a drink?
• I’ll be sure and tell (Gregor) that, before I cut his heart out. = I have brother issues
• She ought to dip him in fire and cook him. Or tickle him till the moon turns black = I have dwarf issues
• Bugger that. Bugger him. Bugger you.” Actually I just have an issue with everybody
• Little Bird = I bloody love you

Classic! :lol:

[LongRider]

Exactly, and the importance and relationship with the horse was a necessary, everyday occurrence, they were part of the family. So their eye for such detail would have extremely sharp.

It sounds like it was an obsession or a hobby of the knights, which would make sense. A fine Knight should have a fine horse, as he should have a fine blade, and these are the parameters set for what most would describe as a minimum to gain credibility.

At the tourney of the Hand GRRM enjoyed describing the fineness of the horses the knights rode. I've read that IRL knights would have several different types of horses for different uses and good breeding; form to function always counts.

[Wizz-The-Smith]

At the tourney of the Hand GRRM enjoyed describing the fineness of the horses the knights rode. I've read that IRL knights would have several different types of horses for different uses and good breeding; form to function always counts.

I'll have to go over the Tourney again. And your second point is cool, that would make sense, having the right tools for the job. A lot of the stuff you read on Knights is based around chivalry, battles, tourney records etc.. Nice to have a nod to the awareness of the importance of their horses.

[Booknerd2]

The Sandor Speak was the best!

I am sure there are more. If anyone can remember throw it out there. I feel there are, and he does repeat certain words and patterns.

I had planned a write up called "Hey Stupid!" I really have to get back to it. Other stuff came up and were more pressing. I wanted to track all the times Arya

says "stupid" and it is usually aimed at Gendry or the Pack.

I love when she does it in the show, and Gendry even did it too. Too funny!

And the horse stuff. Totally different status and values.

And I am telling you, when Sandor was the Peddler I really just about died laughing with Stranger as the meek cart horse just going with the ruse. And there were many references by people to what a beautiful horse he was, so it was funny. But also funny when people discuss how fierce and violent he is. Damn, I love that horse!

Here it is guys... The eye roll:

http://media.tumblr.com/b6b1d970844e903bbaec55df9d9ef2e6/tumblr_inline_mn2w46VxBv1qz4rgp.png

[Wizz-The-Smith]

Here it is guys... The eye roll:

http://media.tumblr.com/b6b1d970844e903bbaec55df9d9ef2e6/tumblr_inline_mn2w46VxBv1qz4rgp.png

Ha ! Good work ! Great find.

[Le Cygne]

Here it is guys... The eye roll:

http://media.tumblr.com/b6b1d970844e903bbaec55df9d9ef2e6/tumblr_inline_mn2w46VxBv1qz4rgp.png

Poor Stranger. Get that she-wolf off my neck, please.

That's right. But my take was that it sparks the fact the Blackfish is out there, and until he hears otherwise is an option. Would maybe be listening keenly for any news on the QI.

True, so he knows about him, and I think he also knows Littlefinger is bad news, so if he hears about that...

[Wizz-The-Smith]

Poor Stranger. Get that she-wolf off my neck, please.

True, so he knows about him, and I think he also knows Littlefinger is bad news, so if he hears about that...

Right, very subtle clues in the text that confirm he has certain information. This info will guide his thoughts, nice catch.

And LF, I agree, let's see how this develops, ears to the floor, or eyes on the text for any subtle clues coming up. ^_^

[Booknerd2]

This is the whole point of the thread…I was just thinking about the posts that came out tonight.

I know I got frustrated thinking in general about the Riverlands for a long time, My God, so many characters are converging and things are overlapping. And it seems that each character has so much to do and there are so many variables, so much danger, and so many things that could go wrong.

Brienne, Jaime, Blackfish, Sandor especially have people looking for them and they are wanted all over the place. I am sure LS too when people start finding out.

So is Gendry and the BWB.

But they want the same things as top priorities: to find Sansa and Arya. Other things too. Yet, even some of them do not get along or have beef with each other, to say the least, which causes even more friggin' problems.

And we were lulled or distracted at different times in the book, but I feel the most with book 4. Brienne traveling friggin all over the place. If you don't pay attention to EB, Meribald, the orphanage, and the QI, it looks like she just got screwed again. She fights Rorge and Biter.Face is ripped up, almost gets hanged, now has to bring Jaime to LS. So much travel, so little pay off. It took me years to realize that that is not necessarily the case. And other stuff too, and forget all the other stuff happening outside the Riverlands.

Sandor is injured and supposed to be dead.

Jaime does have a disadvantage because he was trained his whole life. One hand was for sword, the other for balance and defense. Now he doesn't have that hand and is trying to catch the other one up.

But it is out there. I think the answers are there. I know I am up to Book 2, but I am doing one more intensive re-read before 6. Otherwise I just go back to do research when questions pop up or if I have to write something. And I kind of got behind while reading WOIAF.

I know I am going back again even deeper, especially when I get to book 3 & 4, because I think it is going to come down to things like the quote about the Blackfish that Le Cygne just pointed out.

I truly believe there are more answers/pieces and they are in front of us. There is still stuff to look for.

Let's take book 4. When I read it it took people to point out the Sandor thing and the orphanage to me.

Even what Stranger really "says" about his owner ( that occurred to me and drove me nuts) what EB is talking about, what the deal is with Meribald and Dog.

I think there is more. And it is going to be some of those, maybe to me, seemingly throwaway quotes. Or stuff that people can go back to, and there are so many angles, some are forgotten or not looked into.

I am still going through WOIAF, taking my time. There is stuff that came up while I was reading WOAIF that I know damn well that is not what I thought or how I surmised or pictured certain things when I ruminated about certain people and topics before the information came out.

But we can make specific points after the time deadline passes and we can discuss.

[Booknerd2]

Totally. And Sandor is not stupid. He knows LF and what he did. He gets told Sansa flew the coop. She is not with her uncle. She is not with the Starks. She is not with Lysa. But she left KL and so did LF and he shows up with a daughter. Lysa ends up dead. And I am sure he will wonder that the whole time he was in KL and LF was there and there was never not even a mention of a daughter. And he probably knows the Spider Varys is. He may even think it odd that even he didn't get a whiff of anything.

Why? Because there is no daughter.

I am sure Sandor observed and heard a lot due to his position there and with Joffrey. There could have even been throwaway conversations about LF working, making money, and no family or heir to leave it to, anything.

The other one I am watching is Blackfish when he surfaces. He observed LF a long time growing up and I am sure he observed a few things and some impressions/light was shed for him too.

And when a roundabout age for this girl gets out, or a description, besides the wrong hair color….

[Wizz-The-Smith]

I am still going through WOIAF, taking my time. There is stuff that came up while I was reading WOAIF that I know damn well that is not what I thought or how I surmised or pictured certain things when I ruminated about certain people and topics before the information came out.

But we can make specific points after the time deadline passes and we can discuss.

Agreed. I was excited reading the RL's section, a lot of the names and houses were so familiar. ;)

[Wizz-The-Smith]

Totally. And Sandor is not stupid. He knows LF and what he did. He gets told Sansa flew the coop. She is not with her uncle. She is not with the Starks. She is not with Lysa. But she left KL and so did LF and he shows up with a daughter. Lysa ends up dead. And I am sure he will wonder that the whole time he was in KL and LF was there and there was never not even a mention of a daughter. And he probably knows the Spider Varys is. He may even think it odd that even he didn't get a whiff of anything.

Why? Because there is no daughter.

I am sure Sandor observed and heard a lot due to his position there and with Joffrey. There could have even been throwaway conversations about LF working, making money, and no family or heir to leave it to, anything.

The other one I am watching is Blackfish when he surfaces. He observed LF a long time growing up and I am sure he observed a few things and some impressions/light was shed for him too.

And when a roundabout age for this girl gets out, or a description, besides the wrong hair color….

Definitely, any info gathered on LF won't be lost on Sandor, he knows more than enough to smell a rat [ And we know from previous posts what Dogs do to rats ]

And good to point out Blackfish, if anyone can see through LF it's him, and would perhaps ask questions of his persona ? Intimidate him or make him nervous ?

[Karmarni]

Classic! :lol:

Yes! Love this. Thanks booknerd2 for putting it up.

Stranger the cart horse - Sandor the peasant. Sandor's foreshadowing Brienne and Pod looking at his horse and not at him. Those pesky 'knights' you know. And also his ability to work a disguise.

Sandor's asking about Riverrun and then Saltpans. He's still thinking what am I doing to do with this she wolf? And it tells us where Arya ends up going. So perhaps the Blackfish comes up with him later? Probably not Riverrun.

[LongRider]

"A dog can smell a lie you know." and "They are all liars here and all of them better than you." Sandor was talking about the royals and the Small Council. I'm sure he knows what a liar and kniver LF is. Standing over Joff all those years he had to have heard and seen alot. It wasn't just wildfire that drove him away from KL. It was also the corruption of the court and Joff's abuse of Sansa was a "Game of Thrones" practicum applied to one person.

If he hears the right info he might not figure it out directly, but could smell the lies and knows it needs checking out. Plus, war can make strange alliances, the dog and the fish looking together for the wolf? Love that idea.

[LongRider]

Yes! Love this. Thanks booknerd2 for putting it up.

Stranger the cart horse - Sandor the peasant. Sandor's foreshadowing Brienne and Pod looking at his horse and not at him. Those pesky 'knights' you know. And also his ability to work a disguise.

Sandor's asking about Riverrun and then Saltpans. He's still thinking what am I doing to do with this she wolf? And it tells us where Arya ends up going. So perhaps the Blackfish comes up with him later? Probably not Riverrun.

Actually, I put that up and you're welcome. :)

Nice point about the horse getting the attention and not the peasant. I reread that part last night and there were two old dray horses pulling the cart w/Stranger tied up behind. When asked why he had such a fine horse he lied that the horse was a gift from Lady Whent to the bridegroom. They totally bought it.

I'd love to see the Blackfish pop up somewhere. If Tom O'Sevens gave Edumure some inside info that he passed to BF, perhaps he will soon.

[Le Cygne]

There was also this very deliberate scene setting up a visual Sandor and Stranger connection (where you see one, the other is not far):

https://33.media.tumblr.com/7c0ff08f21317981d78823455c4e141d/tumblr_n50mvyazP01s95j2so1_500.png

[LongRider]

Great pix! The Hound; voted "Best Combover in Westeros!" for 5 years running!

:rofl:

[fellow reader]

... and I think he also knows Littlefinger is bad news, ...

Sandor was in the throne room, so he witnessed that

-Littlefinger came in with Ned

-Ned seemed to think the Goldcloaks would obey him

-LF was not surprised as they turned against Neds men instead

-LF held a dagger at Neds throat and gloated "I did warn you not to trust me, you know."

Sandor is not stupid but also not omniscient. He does not know the extent of LFs betrayal, but he can conclude that LF must have known what was going to happen in the throne room.

So Sandor is surely aware that LF is not a friend, but an enemy of the Starks and could expose any lies of Littlefinger claiming to have tried to help Ned as bullshit. If someone would accept his words as truth, that is. And who would believe the former Lannister dog? Certainly not many people, but perhaps a certain Little Bird whom he told "A hound will die for you, but never lie to you."

Perhaps Sandor is the one who starts the unmasking of Littlefinger as a backstabbing liar. That revelation could trigger more because it could lead Sansa and others to question and investigate the events around Petyr Baelish like his big rewards from the Lannister regime for some unspecified deeds and the death of Lysa, and Sansa might rethink her dismissal of Lysas "mad ramblings". Add to that Sansas knowledge of the murder of Joffrey and it is proven that Littlefinger betrayed all parties. That way, Sansas opinion of Sandor could become very important and have an impact on politics. With their combined knowledge, they could figure out that Littlefinger caused the whole mess in which Westeros is stuck and that he basically betrayed everyone. As soon as the cat is out of the bag, LFs manipulative skills would become useless because no one would ever be stupid enough to trust him again and the mockingbird is done for. All sides would want him dead.

Oh, I just noticed that the saying I have quoted has an unintentional second meaning in combination with Littlefingers chosen sigl: As soon as the cat is out of the bag, ......the mockingbird is done for.

cat: an animal capable of killing birds

Catelyns nickname was Cat; LF attempted to get Sansa since Neds imprisonment and now he tries to shape her into this younger and more beautiful (and of course submissive to his will) version of Catelyn, his former object of desire; Catelyn is as Lady Stoneheart on a campaign of revenge although she does not know about LFs role (yet?)

mockingbird: a bird, a possible victim of cats

LF chose the mockingbird as his personal sigl, and it fits him because he mocks everyone with his facade of an unimportant powerless henchman, whereas he secretly uses and betrays everyone, even the most powerful;

he especially likes to mock his victims (Ned: "Distrusting me was the wisest thing you've done since you climbed down off your horse.", "I did warn you not to trust me, you know.";

Sansa: "Life is not a song, sweetling. Someday you may learn that, to your sorrow."(his betrayal of Ned led to Sansas imprisonment in Kings Landing and he told Tywin of the Tyrells plan to marry Sansa to Willas and so get her out of Kings Landing which led to her marriage to Tyrion);

Lysa: (L): "It was me who got you your first post, who made Jon bring you to court so we could be close to one another. You promised me you would never forget that.... You told me to put the tears in Jon's wine, and I did. For Robert, and for us! And I wrote Catelyn and told her the Lannisters had killed my lord husband, just as you said. That was so clever."

(P): "My sweet silly jealous wife, I've only loved one woman, I promise you."

(L): "Only one? Oh, Petyr, do you swear it? Only one?"

(P): "Only Cat.")

I never saw a possible connection between Catelyns nickname and Petyrs chosen sigl before. But now thanks to writing some sentences here I stumbled on it and started to think it could mean something. Perhaps one or both of the cats(CATelyn or Sansa as "improved version of Cat") will be responsible for the death of Littlefinger/Petyr Baelish, the mockingbird. Also remember that LFs real family sigl is the head of the Titan of Braavos and a certain maid(Sansa) will slay a savage giant(LF had an unnoticed big influence on the events and committed lots of atrocities like murder and making an 11 years old girl into a tortured sex slave) according to the prophetic dreams of the Ghost of the High Heart. They do not even have to literally kill him themselves, simply exposing his betrayal of everyone will be the end of his power and then the giant is slain because he can no longer decieve anyone which was the source of his success and all betrayed sides and those who suffered during the war he instigated and still suffer in the aftermath will likely want his death.

[Karmarni]

Actually, I put that up and you're welcome. :)

Nice point about the horse getting the attention and not the peasant. I reread that part last night and there were two old dray horses pulling the cart w/Stranger tied up behind. When asked why he had such a fine horse he lied that the horse was a gift from Lady Whent to the bridegroom. They totally bought it.

I'd love to see the Blackfish pop up somewhere. If Tom O'Sevens gave Edumure some inside info that he passed to BF, perhaps he will soon.

Oops, my apologies LongRider! :)

Yes, there is something up with Sandor's ability to lie so smoothly. He did it at Joff's nameday, showing Sansa how it was done - it seems seamless, fits the circumstances. And as for lying and spotting a lie, just have to say how much I truly loved Maester Aemon on the show and his, "I grew up in King's Landing." Such fabulous delivery!

What about this idea?

“The Lannisters are proud,” Jon observed. “You’d think the royal sigil would be sufficient, but no. He makes his mother’s House equal in honor to the king’s.”

“The woman is important too!” Arya protested.

Jon chuckled. “Perhaps you should do the same thing, little sister. Wed Tully to Stark in your arms.”

“A wolf with a fish in its mouth?” It made her laugh. “That would look silly. Besides, if a girl can’t fight, why should she have a coat of arms?”

Jon shrugged. “Girls get the arms but not the swords. Bastards get the swords but not the arms. I did not make the rules, little sister.”

I've also spent plenty of time thinking about Arya and her possible future arms. But since she got the sword, perhaps Jon does end up with the arms? Certainly, rules will be broken. And 'arms' and 'swords' could be armies, couldn't it?

And I never thought I'd just love a comb-over . . .

[Le Cygne]

Oh, I just noticed that the saying I have quoted has an unintentional second meaning in combination with Littlefingers chosen sigl: As soon as the cat is out of the bag, ......the mockingbird is done for.

Hey, I like all of that! As for the above, maybe the cat will be Arya (she once called herself Cat and warged a cat).

I like what you said there, that he mocks his victims. It's cruel, and I'd love to have it bite him in the butt one day. He's trying to mess with her head, getting her to play this role inside and out. Then there's the touching, undermining her autonomy. It's diabolical, what he's doing to her. But the opposite could come true here, he will be the one killed:

“Especially when we are alone. Elsewise a day will come when a servant walks into a room unannounced, or a guardsman at the door chances to hear something he should not. Do you want more blood on your pretty little hands, my darling?”

Gaslight, that came from the movie with Ingrid Bergman and Charles Boyer...