The Riverlands Web V.3

[Le Cygne]

Well, he is probably more fluffy than light...

:lol: What was I thinking! Maybe about his wolf bread.

[Booknerd2]

I think he "loved" Catelyn because she not only looked attractive, but could also have been his ticket into the high nobility, to power and wealth.

Before Edmures late birth, Catelyn was Hosters heir. If LF had managed to marry her, he just had to get rid of Edmure and bingo! Littlefinger, smallest of the small lords of the Fingers becomes Petyr Baelish, next Lord of Riverrun and Lord Paramount of the Riverlands. A rocket-like ascension achieved with little effort.

That was the chance of his life, and the "bad" Tullys and Starks did not give him what he wanted, so he set his plan in motion to "punish" them for this before the start of the books with Jon Arryns death and the letter blaming the Lannisters. He wanted that they get destroyed by Tywin "Rains of Castamere" Lannister for thwarting his plan.

Oh…totally.

What he thinks is love and attraction is co-mingled with ambition and selfishness. He views himself like it is "his place," because he thinks how wonderful he is and almost like he deserves it. That how could it not happen to him….he would rise, he probably thinks how great he would be, he thinks how smart he is and he would gain power and rise to be the greatest.

Do you think it is all that though, or that he did think he felt some romantic feelings?

I wasn't sure if you think that too.

[Booknerd2]

:lol: What was I thinking! Maybe about his wolf bread.

And the gravy….don't forget the gravy.

I love this one too. I call this "So,Two Badasses Walk into a Pub Brawl…"

Oh, wait…they started it.

And the getaway car, Stranger, is waiting outside pissed off as usual.

http://metrouk2.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/759997_got401_071513_hs_dsc6527.jpg

[fellow reader]

Oh…totally.

What he thinks is love and attraction is co-mingled with ambition and selfishness. He views himself like it is "his place," because he thinks how wonderful he is and almost like he deserves it. That how could it not happen to him….he would rise, he probably thinks how great he would be, he thinks how smart he is and he would gain power and rise to be the greatest.

Do you think it is all that though, or that he did think he felt some romantic feelings?

I wasn't sure if you think that too.

He definitely was sexually attracted to Catelyn. Sansa looks very similar to her and he cannot resist to touch and kiss Sansa and drags her onto his lap although she does not want all this and sometimes not only shows clear discomfort, but also tells him he should not.

Romantic feelings as in real love?

I am not sure if LF really can love. His "love" seems to completely ignore the actual person and her wishes and to be directed towards her assets: her body and of what use she can be for him with her bloodline(access to the high nobility), her inheritance(castle, title, power and wealth) or as a pawn in his plots

You do not cause someone you love physical or psychological pain, and Littlefinger has done that to Catelyn and Sansa both with orchestrating the downfall of the Tullys and Starks and especially for Sansa because his betrayal of Ned left her at the mercy of Joffrey and Co

Also note that he had played these kissing games with Catelyn and Lysa and he did not seem to have had a favourite there. Also keep in mind that Lysa was not described as unattractive as she was at Riverrun, the tragedies she had to endure in her life made her into the corpulent sick and crazy woman we meet in the Eyrie in the first book. He had impregnated Lysa before he left Riverrun and later wrote a letter to Catelyn. Of couse he tried to marry Catelyn because she would inherit, but when it came to getting intimate he was okay with young Lysa and he even brags about having taken both of the sisters maidenheads.

[Booknerd2]

He definitely was sexually attracted to Catelyn. Sansa looks very similar to her and he cannot resist to touch and kiss Sansa and drags her onto his lap although she does not want all this and sometimes not only shows clear discomfort, but also tells him he should not.

Romantic feelings as in real love?

I am not sure if LF really can love. His "love" seems to completely ignore the actual person and her wishes and to be directed towards her assets: her body and of what use she can be for him with her bloodline(access to the high nobility), her inheritance(castle, title, power and wealth) or as a pawn in his plots

You do not cause someone you love physical or psychological pain, and Littlefinger has done that to Catelyn and Sansa both with orchestrating the downfall of the Tullys and Starks and especially for Sansa because his betrayal of Ned left her at the mercy of Joffrey and Co

Also note that he had played these kissing games with Catelyn and Lysa and he did not seem to have had a favourite there. Also keep in mind that Lysa was not described as unattractive as she was at Riverrun, the tragedies she had to endure in her life made her into the corpulent sick and crazy woman we meet in the Eyrie in the first book. He had impregnated Lysa before he left Riverrun and later wrote a letter to Catelyn. Of couse he tried to marry Catelyn because she would inherit, but when it came to getting intimate he was okay with young Lysa and he even brags about having taken both of the sisters maidenheads.

I agree.

It isn't real love, but in his sick mind, I think he might think he did have that kind of real love once.

Like he pats himself on the back that he at least once in his life was culpable and could feel that for Cat. Like he deserves a medal or something. It almost comes off condescending.

Because he is delusional and twists thing. I think he has convinced himself he has loved…at least once. But we know it is preposterous.

[LongRider]

And this looks great, and I can get behind this.

Prophecies cause me undue stress.

I hear ya! I'm sick of prophecies and dreams and arguing over what they mean. GRRM may never clear up a bunch of 'em anyway and I'm at the point 'of why bother?'

[LongRider]

I agree.

It isn't real love, but in his sick mind, I think he might think he did have that kind of real love once.

Like he pats himself on the back that he at least once in his life was culpable and could feel that for Cat. Like he deserves a medal or something. It almost comes off condescending.

Because he is delusional and twists thing. I think he has convinced himself he has loved…at least once. But we know it is preposterous.

I disagree, it is condescending. He comes off as a condescending, self righteous little prick! *

*uh, I meant, little finger!

[Wizz-The-Smith]

Right, I looked into the tapestries a bit, there's a nice thread going around at the moment. There are a few ideas on the tapestries, some of which are, LF could use them as evidence against the lineage of Robert's apparent children. ---- The argument against being that they were simply depicting hunting scenes.

That they could be flaunted in front of the Vale Lords as a reminder of his ties with KL, a sort of threat, '' look at who my friends and allies are.'' Sansa and the Vale Lords did pass some tapestries on the way to their meeting with Petyr. ---- Argument against being that he was already in the Vale when he requested these tapestries, and why wouldn't he have taken them with him ?

And the smuggling option was considered, the main object of discussion being, that it may have been Sansa's cloak of white and grey with the Direwolf emblazoned on the back that LF had his associates hide within the tapestries. Ready for her marriage to Harry the Heir. ---- There weren't too many arguments against that I can recall, [ I did breeze through the thread ]

I'm not entirely convinced on any of them. There were lot's of quotes posted to certify the tapestries were depicting hunting scenes, but that just makes owning these tapestries seem even more irrelevant to me, I'm not sold either way. :dunno:

[LongRider]

I looked at that thread as well. Some good ideas but like you, I didn't find any really compelling. Using them as way to smuggle other items is one I kinda like, but it has it's weaknesses. So, I dunno.

:dunno:

[Booknerd2]

I haven't dived into this in a long time. I really have to devote the time and let the brain marinate. I'll throw out stuff the best I can, but this is hardly a stance.

There are a lot of options.

When this whole thing was proposed as theories with LF, the first thing I thought of because it got face time in the movie was an idea of the Black Family tapestries in Harry Potter, which show images, names, and information.

But I realize Robert had hunting ones. And he liked to hunt and obviously the boar hinting thing was his death and was a big deal.

But I am not an expert regarding tapestries but I have read about them and their multiple uses.

- decorative arts

- highly skilled weaving - so it is a highly regarded craft/skill - but also an art form

- medieval insulation sort of for cold, damp, and dank walls

-only wealthy and nobles and up could afford them, of course - so obviously royalty would have the best, no doubt. As would the clergy.

- They could depict, classical mythology, religious themes, nature, allegories, and other subjects

-but much like other art forms and stained class that were like photography, in a time when that was non-existent, and they are historical records too.

-many would depict royal/nobles and their family/other people too at various battles, events, ceremonies, important happenings. - so they could be instructional, propaganda, just as much as the art form of portrait painting. (the Bayeux comes to mind) but there are so many that survive and many that did not.

-many would hang in throne rooms and even behind the actual throne chairs. Some were very elaborate and I think even coordinated with canopies too.

An important thing to realize is that they may give images, likenesses of people, record events but also can give names, dates, and info.

Scene from the Bayeux Tapestry. Notice the wording: Harold Rex Interfectus Est - which I think roughly is "King Harold is killed"

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bb/Bayeux_Tapestry_scene57_Harold_death.jpg

Now I picked one image and a short embroidered caption. But some are worded in Latin much longer and offer more specific details.

Now this is an early one. There are more down the road and they obviously become more skilled as the art form and techniques go forward.

It is obvious that he sure as hell was not going to ask Cersei for the book that everyone knows about that Ned and Jon Arryn both asked for at different times, so I don't know if this is LF's alternative.

Now I could be wrong. But if the are hunting scenes and we know they were Roberts, I am sure then they are chronicling Baratheon info. Is it me, but I just can't picture Targs going out to hunt. I would think dragons and other images would be prevalent and of most importance to them. Now any royal can partake in the royal hunts and they can be quite an affair, from simple to elaborate including many people and hangers-on.

Again. Just brainstorming. I have to think more. And we are not given too much info to work with to begin with.

Bear with me. Autocorrect is not my friend lately...

[Booknerd2]

I looked at that thread as well. Some good ideas but like you, I didn't find any really compelling. Using them as way to smuggle other items is one I kinda like, but it has it's weaknesses. So, I dunno.

:dunno:

Yeah. Because between the Stark cloak, Widow's Wail, the book if LF has balls, etc., which he does, and it is headache inducing because a bunch of things could be smuggled and we don't know what he wants exactly, it that may be the case.

Also, in the case of smuggling and having a smuggler, not everybody can be a boss like Davos.

So, it would also matter:

-Who he asks to do it.

- How much access they have around the Red Keep and the limitations.

-Would they take the risk?

-Any item, how long or if ever would it be known to be missing. How fast would anyone notice?

[Wizz-The-Smith]

Now I could be wrong. But if the are hunting scenes and we know they were Roberts, I am sure then they are chronicling Baratheon info. Is it me, but I just can't picture Targs going out to hunt. I would think dragons and other images would be prevalent and of most importance to them. Now any royal can partake in the royal hunts and they can be quite an affair, from simple to elaborate including many people and hangers-on.

Again. Just brainstorming. I have to think more. And we are not given too much info to work with to begin with.

Bear with me. Autocorrect is not my friend lately...

IIRC, the tapestries at Darry were of the Targaryen Kings, from Aegon I through to the last of the Targaryen Kings.

These two sets of tapestries have certainly piqued my interest, not sure how, or even if, they will play a role in future developments, but one to watch for sure.

[LongRider]

Another tapestry; the Unicorn in Captivity. Alot could be seen in tapestries.

http://www.metmuseum.org/collection/the-collection-online/search/467642

[Booknerd2]

Update:

Edmure and Elder Brother were added to the OP.

[Booknerd2]

IIRC, the tapestries at Darry were of the Targaryen Kings, from Aegon I through to the last of the Targaryen Kings.

These two sets of tapestries have certainly piqued my interest, not sure how, or even if, they will play a role in future developments, but one to watch for sure.

Yes, as if the Robert ones are confusing with a lot to think about because LF requests them, there are those too.

I remember being thrown when LF asked for them, and got a little twinge, that he asked Cersei for anything…period.

[Booknerd2]

Another tapestry; the Unicorn in Captivity. Alot could be seen in tapestries.

http://www.metmuseum.org/collection/the-collection-online/search/467642

These are well-known. And the perfect example of a latter art piece, and how far tapestry construction and design had progressed at that point, if you compare it with the earlier Bayeux.

[Karmarni]

Well, whatever the tapestries depict, if LF is asking Cersei for something, do you think that it means he wants to 'get while the getting is good?' That he suspects she won't last forever now. Who doesn't, but still. And he's got to want them for some kind of leverage. I can see LF pulling one last fast one on Cersei before she takes her bow.

Though, I also agree we may never know. It might just be a world-building detail. Damn hard at this point in the combing back and forth and back and forth while waiting for new material to figure out what is a damn detail and what is important . . . at least for some things!

[Booknerd2]

Well, whatever the tapestries depict, if LF is asking Cersei for something, do you think that it means he wants to 'get while the getting is good?' That he suspects she won't last forever now. Who doesn't, but still. And he's got to want them for some kind of leverage. I can see LF pulling one last fast one on Cersei before she takes her bow.

Though, I also agree we may never know. It might just be a world-building detail. Damn hard at this point in the combing back and forth and back and forth while waiting for new material to figure out what is a damn detail and what is important . . . at least for some things!

Well, he does speak with Sansa and pretty much lets her know that Cersei is causing her own downfall and having problems. So, yeah.

In a literary sense, these dusty old, in-storage tapestries reminded me of how life goes on. At one time Robert was king, and now his belongings are just stored somewhere where once they probably hung in prominence. Also, Cersei is willing to just send them over and they mean nothing to her, but apparently, they mean something to LF.

In the show, I was doing a marathon the other day and tinkering around the house, and is struck me again, when Tyrion is talking to Shae in KL and he remarks that Lord Stark once slept on that bed as Hand. And you think, damn…life goes on. And you remember how heavy poor Ned's thoughts were when he laid down at night.

It was a nice line.

[Le Cygne]

Not seeing where Cersei actually sends the tapestries, perhaps he's assuming. Seems like she was saying to the Vale lords, do as you like with Sweetrobin, but let us use LF for other things.

"And does it matter who is regent for little Lord Robert, so long as the Vale remits its taxes?"

No, Cersei decided. If truth be told, Littlefinger had been more use at court. He had a gift for finding gold, and never coughed. "Lord Orton has convinced me. Maester Pycelle, instruct these Lords Declarant that no harm must come to Petyr. Elsewise, the crown is content with whatever dispositions they might make for the governance of the Vale during Robert Arryn’s minority."

[LongRider]

Not seeing where Cersei actually sends the tapestries, perhaps he's assuming. Seems like she was saying to the Vale lords, do as you like with Sweetrobin, but let us use LF for other things.

Ugh, Cersei, telling the LD to not harm LF? Bad move for the LD, the Vale and Sansa and SR. What a bad idea.

:thumbsdown: