The Riverlands Web V.3

[Booknerd2]

when has anybody ever thought of Littlefinger as "FORMIDABLE"? his whole persona is based on nobody seeing him as any kind of threat to them so he can fly under the radar. Nobody thinks that Littlefinger has the resources or the guts to pull off the Sansa rescue, plus he was long gone from Kings Landing when it all went down.

Some do….not all. And that has been proven already.

But that is what I mean. Keep thinking that if you wish. That is fine. I don't.

People already are either on the scent or are picking things up.

[Blackfish Tully]

Yeah it is.

But when it gets to a point when you have laid out your cards and someone sees a deuce and a Jack and you both can't decide on the value/what to do with it, what is the point?

I can't debate because I fail to see your point. I don't hold to be true what you are saying and I already gave my reasons why that is. Don't know what else to say, really. And I don't "do mean." I don't mean it snottily, but we can just agree to disagree.

I think to nail him years ago, people would have been interested in any info they acquire. It is done to everybody in the series, or people try. Whether successful or not, I am sure people have done their homework on him, and if not…they will now. The red flags are there, and people have already seen them blowing in the wind. It is not just people recognizing Alayne, he opened several cans of worms.

I won't bet that Varys hadn't tried to look into him, if not to keep his own ass safe in KL for example. People are always trying to get stuff on others. People keep stuff to use at a later date. Varys and LF are a prime example of this. Those tapestries, for example, a simple request my ass. He wants them for some reason.

That is the process here.

And remember there are a lot of things characters know or think, that we are not privy to yet in the series, but its coming.

For example, it is not just for healing and his benefit alone. I think the Hound being "out and silent" in on QI in book 4 is for a purpose of set up. Thoros' fires all of a sudden not working. No trace of BF yet. And only some of the other disappearances, not all.

So just because people don't say direct things about LF, we don't know what is going on in their mind.

But we are looking at what Myranda told Sansa; a direct hit, the Mad Mouse's actions, and stuff we posted already too, which warrants looking at.

I noticed on this thread that some of us tend to look at the behind the scenes/ off page stuff too that is alluded to subtly by the author. And that doesn't mean a matter of being right or wrong, it just means it needs to get looked at.

[Booknerd2]

If you don't agree with my post either point out what points you don't agree with or ignore the post . I don't need you telling how and when to post my opinions or my interpretation of what is happening in the story. This post struck me as very arrogant and "snotty" your word not mine.

If I just pointed out what points I don't agree with and did it in a very polite manner, and you are still saying I just didn't explain myself, when my words are right in front of you, and you are calling me answering you politely "snotty," when I just said let's agree to disagree...

Than you are right. You made a point. We will never see LF in the same way.

[Blackfish Tully]

If I just pointed out what points I don't agree with and did it in a very polite manner, and you are still saying I just didn't explain myself, when my words are right in front of you, and you are calling me answering you politely "snotty," when I just said let's agree to disagree...

Than you are right. You made a point. We will never see LF in the same way

[Le Cygne]

booknerd2 was polite as usual, as has been the tone of these threads. Great format, too, setting up the web.

[Booknerd2]

We are going to keep going with PQ#16 LF, I am going to hold on #17 for a bit. I need to check info and write the blurbs that I always say will be smaller and never are...

We can recap too any lingering post question stuff or add to them while LF is going on too.

I need to update that OP with third tier and other info and it has already started.

So far to recap, the questions covered: LS, Sandor, Big Nyms, Stranger, Jaime, BlackFish, the Inn, Edric Dayne, the Orphanage, Hot Pie, LF, Dog, Jacket Cigar, one released excerpt, the hound and bull helms. The first question doesn’t count. That was to kick off the thread. Not fair. Thoros and Gendry deserve their own individual blurbs. LOL!

Upcoming on either OP and/or as questions/blurbs:

Sansa

Arya

Needle

Tom

Anguy

Sybell Spicer

Edmure Tully

BWB Informants and Harborers

Gendry

Thoros

Brienne

Stony Sept/ Peach

Podrick

Harwin

EB

House Frey

Septon Meribald

The Late Lord Frey

The Twins

Acorn Hall/Lady Smallwood

The identity reveal

Oathkeeper

And more...

[Le Cygne]

Back to the Mystery of the Drunken Sexual Predator in the Night... Why was LF drunk that night?

He went beyond the usual forced kiss, and made her sit on his lap and blabbed about wanting Sweetrobin dead. Caught up in his own personal contempt for Sweetrobin, he didn't pick up that Sansa and Sweetrobin have bonded over stories about knights, and this is tied into the Sandor stuff, too, as well as the pretend kisses (I provided quotes before). He's missing these things, and they matter.

[Booknerd2]

Back to the Mystery of the Drunken Sexual Predator in the Night... Why was LF drunk that night?

He went beyond the usual forced kiss, and made her sit on his lap and blabbed about wanting Sweetrobin dead. Caught up in his own personal contempt for Sweetrobin, he didn't pick up that Sansa and Sweetrobin have bonded over stories about knights, and this is tied into the Sandor stuff, too, as well as the pretend kisses (I provided quotes before). He's missing these things, and they matter.

Let me brush up on that and I'll come back.

Poor Sweetrobin….not the guy whose shit list you want to be on.

Lysa must be stewing er, wherever she is...

[Wizz-The-Smith]

Back to the Mystery of the Drunken Sexual Predator in the Night... Why was LF drunk that night?

He went beyond the usual forced kiss, and made her sit on his lap and blabbed about wanting Sweetrobin dead. Caught up in his own personal contempt for Sweetrobin, he didn't pick up that Sansa and Sweetrobin have bonded over stories about knights, and this is tied into the Sandor stuff, too, as well as the pretend kisses (I provided quotes before). He's missing these things, and they matter.

I'm not really sure. Petyr was drinking wine with Shadrich and co, and they had been discussing 'Alayne' for a reasonable amount of time before she arrived. Plus it was very late, most of the castle was asleep. So how long had he been drinking ?

Having re-read the chapter, I got the impression it was Petyr being on a high after his journey to and back from the wedding. We have info from the letter he sent, he writes '' Lyonel Corbray is pleased with his bride + dowry, and Lady Waynwood turned up with the Knight of Ninestars, to everyone's astonishment'' He has now got the Waynwood's on board, which he wasn't sure of before, and the marriage agreement to boot. He was also confident of securing Symond Templeton's allegiance.

When back with Petyr, the three Hedge Knights leave, and they discuss them,

'' Hedge Knights ? '' said Alayne

'' Hungry Knights. I thought it best we have a few more swords about us. The times grow ever more interesting, my sweet, + when the times are interesting you can never have too many swords. The Merling King's returned to Gulltown, and old Oswell had some tales to tell. ''

Now back, and he has hired swords as well. Three of which he is still entertaining, and old Oswell's tales don't seem to worry him, they just seem to get the brain cells working on the next chaos plot. This trip was perhaps fruitful for LF, and his scheming has been in full flow.

I maybe wrong, please discuss, but I thought LF being drunk was a reflection on his current demeanour. Sort of, happy with himself, as he thinks everything is going well. Scheming and entertaining, to influence people for his own gain. I bet he hardly stopped on this trip.

It also gave the author the opportunity to show Petyr with his guard down, he has trusted Sansa with info before but not to this level. And with him being drunk the sleazy, creepy LF was also, unfortunately in full flow.

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

Lurking as usual, and appreciating the Riverlanders as always! I always think of the Riverlands as the heart of Westeros and of ASOIAF. :)

[Le Cygne]

<snip>

Great take on that, I think you are right. Very pleased with himself, he let down his guard.

I wonder if Mad Max (Mouse!) didn't encourage the drinking, too. Here, have another, you pompous ass. The better to slip up. He seems like a sharp one, able to pick up on things, like he read Brienne like a book.

And Sansa took it like a champ, rolling with the punches.

And a dramatic tonal shift, from when she was herself for the most part throughout the day, sharing stories with Sweetrobin, pretending to kiss Sandor, remembering Jon, gossiping with a new friend perhaps about how men dream of women, looking forward to a sweet dream of her own, ... then she's startled to find he's back.

Like a needle being dragged across a record.

Did he bring lemons, you need lemons to make a lemon cake, that was almost robotic. He would tell her if he wanted her to know, so she knows better than to ask. He doesn't hold her kiss against her. "Another kiss" at the end of the chapter the contrast to "another kiss" at the beginning of the chapter, the kiss she chose to give (to Sandor). How different, the one is like a romance novel, the other a cold calculation.

Which sounds very much like Arya in Mercy. The scene with Raff

is like the tower in the snow castle scene if we think in terms of phallic symbolism, just when LF thinks he's got what he wants (the "tower" erect), she throws snow in his face. Snow is Stark symbolism, like the snow that melted Cersei's words on the letter she sent Jaime. Winter is coming...

Also, maybe the last book was called A Time for Wolves because he wanted to make sure we'd keep reading... Sounds a bit like Revenge/Return of the Jedi, you knew walking into the theater things would turn around.

[Booknerd2]

Great take on that, I think you are right. Very pleased with himself, he let down his guard.

I wonder if Mad Max (Mouse!) didn't encourage the drinking, too. Here, have another, you pompous ass. The better to slip up. He seems like a sharp one, able to pick up on things, like he read Brienne like a book.

And Sansa took it like a champ, rolling with the punches.

And a dramatic tonal shift, from when she was herself for the most part throughout the day, sharing stories with Sweetrobin, pretending to kiss Sandor, remembering Jon, gossiping with a new friend perhaps about how men dream of women, looking forward to a sweet dream of her own, ... then she's startled to find he's back.

Like a needle being dragged across a record.

Did he bring lemons, you need lemons to make a lemon cake, that was almost robotic. He would tell her if he wanted her to know, so she knows better than to ask. He doesn't hold her kiss against her. "Another kiss" at the end of the chapter the contrast to "another kiss" at the beginning of the chapter, the kiss she chose to give (to Sandor). How different, the one is like a romance novel, the other a cold calculation.

Which sounds very much like Arya in Mercy. The scene with Raff

is like the tower in the snow castle scene if we think in terms of phallic symbolism, just when LF thinks he's got what he wants (the "tower" erect), she throws snow in his face. Snow is Stark symbolism, like the snow that melted Cersei's words on the letter she sent Jaime. Winter is coming...

Also, maybe the last book was called A Time for Wolves because he wanted to make sure we'd keep reading... Sounds a bit like Revenge/Return of the Jedi, you knew walking into the theater things would turn around.

This is excellent. And I can see to that the drinks went around a little heavy-handed and strong probably for a reason.

And I like the "Winds of Winter" better. But really it as symbolic of a turn/shift in Stark fortunes as the old one.

[Wizz-The-Smith]

Thanks Le Cygne. I like some of your thoughts as well. Great point about Mad Max [ Mouse ] perhaps encouraging the drinking, he is definitely a sharp character, as you've said, and if as we suspect, it is no coincidence that he is there, a perfect opportunity to ply LF with booze and ask questions.

And Sansa rolling with the punches is a perfect way to describe that moment. Even though I was aware of her maturing and her gradual transformation from naïve girl to astute woman, I was still taken aback by the calm and confident manner that she dealt with these three unknown Hedge Knights.

The 'tonal shift and needle across the record' part are great. Just the way I felt it as well, especially when the creepiness starts. At least she may have a new friend, and showed her courage and intelligence on the journey down, which didn't go unnoticed. And the dreaming continues to stay on one path, strong as ever.

[Le Cygne]

As long as there are no dancing ewoks! And no do overs for this George, he will leave well enough alone.

[LongRider]

I just want to mention a couple of reasons as to why many in the Vale wouldn't trust LF. When Cat brings Tryion to the Vale she meets the Blackfish there. He tells her many things of Lysa, including that since her husband Jon had died and she had returned to Eryie, she has had many suitors for her hand and had so far rejected them all. At the end of this chapter, Lysa refuses Robb request for troops which angers the BF and he leaves the Vale for RR.

It is of import to note that the BF mentions the suitors to Cat. Lysa keeps the suitors at bay for a couple of years then BAM!! rushes off to the Fingers to marry LF. I doubt that the BF was please about this marriage at all. And what about those spurned suitors? The 'subtle' and 'sly' LF has just drawn a huge amount of attention to himself. Lysa may screech about 'luv' but the Vale lords know better-it's her claim he's interested in, just as they were. So there is a reason not to trust him and to look into this guy who has just been handed the keys to the Vale.

LF has a huge amount of business contacts all over Westeros and beyond. He runs high end brothels in KL, the kind Lords and Sers would visit. He is not unknown past KL, he is known. He's secretive in many ways, but has so many dealings all over, which include many shady deals, that the idea of a squeaky clean reputation to me is far fetched.

Ser Shadrich "The Mad Mouse" tells Brienne that he is looking for Sansa Stark and that Varys has offered a generous reward for her. We don't know the circumstances that he comes about as a sell sword for LF, but being an opportunist, this is a way for him to come to the Vale. If he knows anything about her family and surviving family members, he may think this is a good place to look and LF gives him the chance. So here is a slip up on LF's part. I wonder, does LF know that Varys has offered this reward?

[Wizz-The-Smith]

He is not unknown past KL, he is known.

It is known !

Sorry, couldn't help myself. :P As for the rest of your post, I totally agree with all you said.

[Booknerd2]

Going out on a limb here but I don’t think he drinks much. But they don’t have soda and iced tea and energy drinks in Westeros so even a glass of wine or two is the norm. So for him to drink more than that, I think this was stand out. Not excessively, but he always struck me as someone that always needs to be alert every minute of every hour. And honestly, this asshole gets a buzz off himself so he is not the type to plow through wineskins. Always in control…ever vigilant. He can’t afford to slip or not be fully focused especially with the stuff he’s done and the stuff he wants to do yet.

So I think it was pointed out to us that this was one night he had more than usual. And I think you guys were right, he was off his game a bit.

I have thought different things over time. That the asshole was so self-satisfied with himself he indulged a bit. And it is an event before the pinprick approaching the over-inflated balloon scenario, it gave Sansa some insight, and like LeCygne said, for us the audience a nice contrast on how she views things with Sandor vs. LF. That I had never picked up on. And/or that when he mentions…” I thought it best that we have a few more swords about us. The times grow ever more interesting, my sweet, and when the times are interesting you can never have too many swords.”

Well, I hope that bastard means he is sleeping with one eye open and a knife under his pillow, but I am not 100% sure it means that totally either.

Then again, maybe he has a feeling he has to watch his ass. That something struck him and he is being careful. I always still ponder if he knows he will never have as many as he wants behind him, or knew already that people know about Sansa. I think we know Myranda knows, and possibly others. And that idea was subtly brought up in the text. Myranda’s comment; however, was more blunt and to the point.

The liquor loosened him up. And it is interesting to note. Here he is telling her about her marriage arrangement and he is more kissy and touchy-feely than ever before. Inhibitions were loosened a bit with the liquore. For a moment I could imagine him being younger and insistent and impatient with Cat at Riverrun. And when he didn’t get his way, he’d go off and sulk. But with this one, he is in control, like he never was with Cat. He is a sicko. Which obviously sent Sansa mixed messages and got her thinking some more and it hit like a live current. She does not want this.

We do see that he wants this girl for himself. He mentions that the kisses need to improve in the future. We know the sonofabitch wants more in the future. We know from Cersei he wanted to marry her in the past, and he most likely still does down the road. Not saying he wouldn’t want a sample beforehand, and that is why I am worried, that he keeps his hands to himself, until she outsmarts him, or dare I hope, Sandor can smash his hands so he can keep his filthy paws to himself, maybe punch him in the lips too.

What I still can’t gauge is how much truth and how much crap he was telling her. I think it is a mix. Also, some may be a bit of what he wants to happen, and some exaggeration too.

Hard to gauge for the full effect…but his fairytale, this will be so easy salesman pitches to her, are bullshit and he knows it. He talks to her like she’s stupid, and there is more to it.

For chrissakes he sounds like Don Draper or Pete sometimes.

He tells her about the three queens. Then she asks him to elaborate and he cuts himself off and drops the subject. What about them or parts of what is going on does he not want to discuss with her? I have to think more on this.

Before that…

“What little peace and order the 5 kings left us…” He means the war and how it paved a smooth path for his bullshit.

Yeah. Not if you ask anyone in KL or the Riverlands. Times are horrific and have been terrible for safety and survival. He means him. With them warring and being indisposed it was peace for him. He was able to operate and machinate freely without being watched and to do what as he wanted.

That part I get.

And when he tells her she will come out at the wedding with auburn hair and the cloak of the Starks. Such bullshit and not what he really means. It is not that easy. That is not exactly how it is going to happen. And he knows it. He is leaving a lot out and lying to her. So how will he really do it? What is the order? And he was so hinting that Sweetrobin will die but “natural causes.” That “When” was really scary.

[LongRider]

~~~snip~~~

I maybe wrong, please discuss, but I thought LF being drunk was a reflection on his current demeanour. Sort of, happy with himself, as he thinks everything is going well. Scheming and entertaining, to influence people for his own gain. I bet he hardly stopped on this trip.

It also gave the author the opportunity to show Petyr with his guard down, he has trusted Sansa with info before but not to this level. And with him being drunk the sleazy, creepy LF was also, unfortunately in full flow.

It sounds like LF is so pleased with himself that he just wants to brag to Sansa. But, he's messed up. He tells Sansa way more than he should have and thinks all his plans will come about just he's worked for.

Leaving the Eryie, while necessary, is not to LF's advantage. He and Alayne become more visible. I just don't see that this helps LF at all.

[Wizz-The-Smith]

It sounds like LF is so pleased with himself that he just wants to brag to Sansa. But, he's messed up. He tells Sansa way more than he should have and thinks all his plans will come about just he's worked for.

Leaving the Eryie, while necessary, is not to LF's advantage. He and Alayne become more visible. I just don't see that this helps LF at all.

Agreed, and it all seems to be happening around him, without him showing a care in the world. As we're discussing, he's either taken his eye of the ball, so to speak, or he really does have a 'super plan' that no-one can decipher. Here's to it being the former. :cheers:

[LongRider]

~~~snip~~~

And when he tells her she will come out at the wedding with auburn hair and the cloak of the Starks. Such bullshit and not what he really means. It is not that easy. That is not exactly how it is going to happen. And he knows it. He is leaving a lot out and lying to her. So how will he really do it? What is the order? And he was so hinting that Sweetrobin will die but “natural causes.” That “When” was really scary.

I really think him dropping the SR will die bomb was a big mistake. Sansa has bonded with SR and realizes that he's a sick and very spoiled child. LF can't marry him like he did his mother, so he let's known that he's looking forward to SR's early death? Realy? He is off his game.

And about your comment about his hiring sell swords to watch his ass; sell swords can be useful, but fickle. The Mad Mouse would be just as happy to put his hired sword up LF's ass as any, especially if it means gaining that big reward he so wants.