There are no other dragons on Planetos besides Drogon, Viserion and Rhaegal

[TallTyrion]

He saw things that were actually happening at that moment along with the Dragons this was before he could get in the tree and look into the past although maybe it was the future i could be wrong

It's ambiguous. There's no reason to believe he is literally seeing dragons in Ashai.

"He lifted his eyes and saw clear across the narrow sea, to the free cities, and the green Dothraki sea and beyond, to Vaes Dothrak under its mountain, to the fabled lands of the jade sea, to Asahai by the shadow, where dragons stirred beneath the sunrise."

He could be poetically referring to Asshai as a place where dragons stir. He already referred to it as the fabled land.

The vision contains some things that are happening at the time so it seems reasonable to assume that it's all happening and he's really seeing dragons. That, however, is not the case because the same vision contains the part about:

"A giant in armour made of stone, but when he opened his visor there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood."

That isn't literally happening at the time. Most people think it is a prediction of the future. Possibly Cersei's trial by combat.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Precisely. :cheers:

I dont really think the dragons brought the magic back either. I think the magic just slowly faded in to full power, which made the dragons hatch, the white walkers wake, the direwolves go south of the Wall and the wildfire grow stronger. I dont think it was any one group on Planetos that caused it, the magic season just came back, GOT picks up not long after it got strong again, IMO.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Bran Stark sees Dragons in Asshai maybe they were sleeping for years and came alive when Danny jumped in the Pyre or maybe the magic came to life when the Ice and Fire blood of Jon passed through the magical wall who knows but the fact is Bran saw the Dragons.

That's nowhere near a conclusion. That's an estimation. It means in my personal estimation, there are about 20% chances that there are already other dragons in Planetos and 80% that there aren't.

You seem to be incapable to abide doubts in any situations, You need to hold the answer.

We see vague hints that maybe there are other dragons. It leads me to think it's possible that there are though I am not convinced. It leads you to conclude there are, no room for doubts. Well I have doubts. And I can live with that.

FireEater just pointed this out to me elsewhere regarding Asshai;

Quaithe, who is from Asshai (where it is argued dragons are), referred to the dragons as "the wonder that has been born into the world again." She says "born into the world again," meaning there were none in existence before the eggs hatched.

Which is exactly what the Ghiscari, the Dothraki, the Undying and the Qartheen say, all differently worded. Everyone knows these are the only dragons around.

Is it possible there are dragons elsewhere keeping totally hidden for centuries? I suppose so. But will there be any in these stories to prove it? Decidedly not

[Daemon Blackfyre IV]

i agree

[ChillyPolly]

Quaithe, who is from Asshai (where it is argued dragons are), referred to the dragons as "the wonder that has been born into the world again." She says "born into the world again," meaning there were none in existence before the eggs hatched.

This is too much. Quaithe is saying that (1) Dany's dragons are a wonder; and (2) Dany's dragons have been born into the world; and (3) this is not the first time such things have happened.

Yes, maybe you could take it as distantly implying that Quaithe has met no other living dragons recently. But why care? Quaithe does not claim to have searched the crypts of Winterfell, or scoured the deep forests of the Isle of Faces, or searched each secret inlet on Sea Dragon Point, or investigated the mystery of the disappearances on Skane, or searched the caverns overlooking Hardhome, or flown in a balloon over every square mile of Sothyros.

Moqorro speaks of dragons old and young. If Dany's dragons are the young dragons, where are the old dragons? Yeah, I know. You are going to say they are not literal dragons. Could be! But by the sme token, Quaithe's words may have more than one reading as well, assuming we trust her at all.

[TallTyrion]

This is too much. Quaithe is saying that (1) Dany's dragons are a wonder; and (2) Dany's dragons have been born into the world; and (3) this is not the first time such things have happened.

The operative word in that sentence is "again" to exclude that is to fundamentally misrepresent what she is saying.

[TallTyrion]

Moqorro speaks of dragons old and young. If Dany's dragons are the young dragons, where are the old dragons? Yeah, I know. You are going to say they are not literal dragons. Could be! But by the sme token, Quaithe's words may have more than one reading as well, assuming we trust her at all.

We know Quaithe is literally referring to Dany's dragons.

We don't know what Moqorro means when he says, "Dragons old and young, true and false, bright and dark." Once again it's selective quoting to only include the first part of that speech.

[TallTyrion]

FireEater just pointed this out to me elsewhere regarding Asshai;

Quaithe, who is from Asshai (where it is argued dragons are), referred to the dragons as "the wonder that has been born into the world again." She says "born into the world again," meaning there were none in existence before the eggs hatched.

Which is exactly what the Ghiscari, the Dothraki, the Undying and the Qartheen say, all differently worded. Everyone knows these are the only dragons around.

Is it possible there are dragons elsewhere keeping totally hidden for centuries? I suppose so. But will there be any in these stories to prove it? Decidedly not

Mel is also from Asshai. Why is she trying so hard to wake Dragons from Stone in Westeros when there are dragons in the city she was born in?

[Father of Hosts]

I don't really have a dog in this fight, as I don't care about whether or not there are other dragons, because the answer will always be, possibly.

That being said, you're going to use Quaithe as evidence? The riddle talking sorceress that nobody knows? There is less evidence for Quaithe being from Asshai than there is for other dragons being alive.

ETA: Also, "born into the world again" could also be interpreted as, none have been born since some period in, not that there are none.

[TallTyrion]

I don't really have a dog in this fight, as I don't care about whether or not there are other dragons, because the answer will always be, possibly.

That being said, you're going to use Quaithe as evidence? The riddle talking sorceress that nobody knows? There is less evidence for Quaithe being from Asshai than there is for other dragons being alive.

ETA: Also, "born into the world again" could also be interpreted as, none have been born since some period in, not that there are none.

No it really can't be interpreted like that if you understand the words.

Born into the world again means they exist in the world again, not that they were literally birthed since some unspecified period of time.

[ChillyPolly]

We know Quaithe is literally referring to Dany's dragons.

Right. All I meant was that there were different possible interpretatins in both cases -- not that the ambiguity centered on the word "dragon" in both cases.

[ChillyPolly]

The other problem with the argument that dragons cannot exist anywhere because we would know is that we DON'T know. We know of at least two adult dragons who went missing and simply disappeared 170 years ago: Sheepstealer and Cannibal. Must we take their disappearances as proof that they simply fell into the ocean and sank without a trace within a month of disappearing? Or is it just possible that there are places a dragon can hide in the vast wilderness regions in and around Westeros?

[ChillyPolly]

The operative word in that sentence is "again" to exclude that is to fundamentally misrepresent what she is saying.

I did not exclude it. I read it as acknowledging that this was not the first time that dragons had been born into the world. See my point #3.

[TallTyrion]

The other problem with the argument that dragons cannot exist anywhere because we would know is that we DON'T know. We know of at least two adult dragons who went missing and simply disappeared 170 years ago: Sheepstealer and Cannibal. Must we take their disappearances as proof that they simply fell into the ocean and sank without a trace within a month of disappearing? Or is it just possible that there are places a dragon can hide in the vast wilderness regions in and around Westeros?

We don't know that squishers aren't prowling Crackclaw Point, we don't know what there aren't grumpkins and snarks lurking around Castle Black.

What we do know is that GRRM has written a world where dragons are extinct. That position has been consistently supported throughout out all five books. To have it revelaed now that Cannibal has been hiding out on Skagos for this whole time is tantamount to lying to the reader. Something that GRRM has said he does not do.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

dragons are a weapon of magic -- they arent the source of it. theyre a weapon of Valyrian power, just as the Others are weapons of First Men power.

Preaching to the choir.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

There is no way Illyrio gave 3 Dragon's to Danny and didn't keep some for his precious Aegon after all they kind of help authenticate Aegon, My belief is that the crates Illyrio was so persistent on getting to Aegon before he set sail had Dragon eggs and the Targaryen sword Blackfyre in them maybe even an old Targaryen crown. These same things i believe are in the Lyanna Stark winterfell crypt which were left for Jon that being Rhaegars egg, the Targaryen sword Dark sister (maybe) or his harp and a Targaryen crown.

Illyrio didn't give Dany three dragons. He gave her three old useless valuable rocks.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

We don't know that squishers aren't prowling Crackclaw Point, we don't know what there aren't grumpkins and snarks lurking around Castle Black.

What we do know is that GRRM has written a world where dragons are extinct. That position has been consistently supported throughout out all five books. To have it revelaed now that Cannibal has been hiding out on Skagos for this whole time is tantamount to lying to the reader. Something that GRRM has said he does not do.

I wouldn't go that far. I think you're equivocating dragons existing, period, with Dany's hatching after the (known) world had gone so long without a new dragon being born, and that might be a mistake. I think it's also important to remember that no one in this series, not even the damn encyclopedia "author," is omniscient or completely impartial. So for all intents and purposes, if no one in this world has seen a dragon in XXX years, they would think dragons were extinct, especially if their only exposure had been to the Targaryens' dragons which did in fact die out or disappear. But that is not the same as dragons objectively ceasing to exist in the entirety of the world. Similarly, Cannibal and/or Sheepstealer off in hiding for 170-odd years, presuming they didn't reproduce, doesn't take away from the importance of Dany's eggs hatching, given that it had been so long since one had, and also given that her eggs had been practically rocks at the time they hatched.

I don't think Cannibal or Sheepstealer is going to show up, mind; I think they're probably dead. But GRRM isn't a liar if they do.

[TallTyrion]

I wouldn't go that far. I think you're equivocating dragons existing, period, with Dany's hatching after the (known) world had gone so long without a new dragon being born, and that might be a mistake. I think it's also important to remember that no one in this series, not even the damn encyclopedia "author," is omniscient or completely impartial. So for all intents and purposes, if no one in this world has seen a dragon in XXX years, they would think dragons were extinct, especially if their only exposure had been to the Targaryens dragons which did in fact die out or disappear. But that is not the same as dragons objectively ceasing to exist in the entirety of the world. Similarly, Cannibal and/or Sheepstealer off in hiding for 170-odd years, presuming they didn't reproduce, doesn't take away from the importance of Dany's eggs hatching, given that it had been so long since one had, and also given that her eggs had been practically rocks at the time they hatched.

I don't think Cannibal or Sheepstealer is going to show up, mind; I think they're probably dead. But GRRM isn't a liar if they do.

It's not so much that it takes away from Dany's being special. It's that it makes GRRM a liar. Every indication is that Dragons are extinct. Reintroducing Cannibal, who hasn't even been mentioned is ASOIAF so far, is just a big slap in the face to the reader because it comes out of nowhere with no set up.

I'm not basing my opinion on the lack of eyewitness sightings. The consensus among the known world isn't what convinces me the dragons are gone. I'm basing it on my understanding of GRRM's opinion on what constitutes lying to the reader.

I've been trying to find the quote but haven't been able to. A paraphrase of it would be that "plot twists have value but introducing something contradictory to all prior hints and foreshadowing is tantamount to lying to the reader which I don't do." That's roughly the idea it would be great if anyone has the actual quote.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

It's not that it takes away from Dany's being special. It's that it makes GRRM a liar. Every indication is that Dragons are extinct. Reintroducing Cannibal, who hasn't even been mentioned is ASOIAF so far, is just a big slap in the face to the reader because it comes out of nowhere with no set up.

I'm not basing my opinion on the lack of eyewitness sightings. The consensus among the known world isn't what convinces me the dragons are gone. I'm basing it on what I know about GRRM's opinion on what constitutes lying to the reader.

I've been trying to find the quote but haven't been able to. A paraphrase of it would be that "plot twists have value but introducing something contradictory to all prior hints and foreshadowing is tantamount to lying to the reader which I don't do." That's roughly the idea it would be great if anyone has that quote.

That's the thing, though: Everything we get comes from people who have limited knowledge, experience, biases, whatever. These are not objective people and there is nothing in the series that can actually be called omniscient. If GRRM had written a third-person omniscient text that said dragons were extinct and then he pulled one out of nowhere, then yeah, he'd be a liar. But ASOIAF is not a third-person omniscient text. Our information is only as good as what the POVs know. And a POV, even multiple POVs, unknowingly giving inaccurate information based on their own misinformation or lack of experience is not willful lying.

[TallTyrion]

That's the thing, though: Everything we get comes from people who have limited knowledge, experience, biases, whatever. These are not objective people and there is nothing in the series that can actually be called omniscient. If GRRM had written a third-person omniscient text that said dragons were extinct and then he pulled one out of nowhere, then yeah, he'd be a liar. But ASOIAF is not a third-person omniscient text. Our information is only as good as what the POVs know. And a POV, even multiple POVs, unknowingly giving inaccurate information based on their own misinformation or lack of experience is not willful lying.

I don't think you need to have an omniscient third person narrator to consider it lying to the reader. That would mean anything and everything is on the table for GRRM to put into the story.

I'm not saying the POV are liars. I'm saying that a major theme established throughout the series suddenly getting swept out with no set up is equivalent to lying to the readers.