There are no other dragons on Planetos besides Drogon, Viserion and Rhaegal

[Falcon2908]

There may be dragons in ulthos and the lands beyond. Who knows.

The people say that dragons are extinct in the world. What they mean is the known world.

No one has been beyond the sunset seas and Ulthos.

So we don't really know for sure if they still exist or not

[ChillyPolly]

The people say that dragons are extinct in the world. What they mean is the known world.

The "known world" is approximately one hours walk from the Citadel. Nothing counts unless directly observed by a maester. Remember, the maesters routinely disbelieve stories by peasants and commoners. The sailors reports of Dany's dragons began to be believed only because there were so many such reports.

[Falcon2908]

The "known world" is approximately one hours walk from the Citadel. Nothing counts unless directly observed by a maester. Remember, the maesters routinely disbelieve stories by peasants and commoners. The sailors reports of Dany's dragons began to be believed only because there were so many such reports.

A maester hasn't been beyond ulthos;

[ChillyPolly]

A maester hasn't been beyond ulthos;

True, but an understatement. Your typical maester has not been much beyond the walls of the castle of the lord he serves, and refuses to credit peasant stories as a matter of general principle.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

True, but an understatement. Your typical maester has not been much beyond the walls of the castle of the lord he serves, and refuses to credit peasant stories as a matter of general principle.

But it's not just maesters. We have the fact that there are no more dragons (besides Dany's 3) from every character in all 5 books who has traveled at all. Including Euron, Tychos, Illyrio, Varys, Tyrion, Jorah, XXD, Barristan, Belwas, BBP, Darrio, Marwyn (who has been to Asshai), Moqorro, all the Dothraki and all the Ghiscari in SB.

To me, everyone, seems like a credible source.

[Falcon2908]

But it's not just maesters. We have the fact that there are no more dragons (besides Dany's 3) from every character in all 5 books who has traveled at all. Including Euron, Tychos, Illyrio, Varys, Tyrion, Jorah, XXD, Barristan, Belwas, BBP, Darrio, Marwyn (who has been to Asshai), Moqorro, all the Dothraki and all the Ghiscari in SB.

To me, everyone, seems like a credible source.

But in Brans dream, he does see dragons in Asshai (Or is it actually asshai)

[ChillyPolly]

But it's not just maesters. We have the fact that there are no more dragons (besides Dany's 3) from every character in all 5 books who has traveled at all. Including Euron, Tychos, Illyrio, Varys, Tyrion, Jorah, XXD, Barristan, Belwas, BBP, Darrio, Marwyn (who has been to Asshai), Moqorro, all the Dothraki and all the Ghiscari in SB.

To me, everyone, seems like a credible source.

The world is a huge place. Lots of people have never seen a dragon. You are asking me to believe the people on your above list, even though they are talking of things they cannot possibly KNOW.

"Dragons exist because I have seen one" is a convincing argument.

"Dragon's don't exist, because I have never seen one" is not a convincing argument.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

But in Brans dream, he does see dragons in Asshai (Or is it actually asshai)

Yes Bran sees dragons a few times in his greendreams. He could be seeing into the past or future, but mainly, we don't know what they mean right now except that he is seeing things that are not there at the present in his story........OR, he could be seeing Dany's dragons, anyone ever think of that since it is the most obvious answer?. I am talking about real dragons alive in the years 200-300. Any examples of that?

The world is a huge place. Lots of people have never seen a dragon. You are asking me to believe the people on your above list, even though they are talking of things they cannot possibly KNOW.

I am not understanding your argument. I am stating that in ASOIAF there were no dragons alive when Drogon, R and V were born. Do you have evidence to the contrary? Do you think everything we have been told about the dragons being extinct, everything the pyromancers said is all lies? It's as simple as deciding whether or not these books are the truth of Planetos or if they are just full of shit.

And my list of people have traveled far and wide, most of the known world. Marwyn has been to Asshai, no dragons there, which seems to be the main place posters suspect them of hiding. So yes I am asking you to believe that the books are accurate when every character agrees with one fact; dragons have been extinct.

And you never answered my previous question;

What is the exact context and quote regarding Summer seeing a dragon??....I must have missed that....Lol oh ok, From CoK, Bran is in Summer's Head.....Summer is clearly seeing into the past or the future, not sure which, probably the past. Or are you suggesting there is a dragon running around the North in COK that only Summer can see???? I think Meera, Hodor or Jojen would have noticed a giant fire-breathing lizard if it was nearby.....

In the absence of even one piece of evidence, my OP stands.

[Mal Malenkirk]

The world is a huge place. Lots of people have never seen a dragon. You are asking me to believe the people on your above list, even though they are talking of things they cannot possibly KNOW.

"Dragons exist because I have seen one" is a convincing argument.

"Dragon's don't exist, because I have never seen one" is not a convincing argument.

By that logic we can't claim that something doesn't exist, ever. Which is true in the absolute (it's nigh impossible to prove inexistence of anything outside of mathematical concepts and the like) but not very helpful.

This is a case where the default assumptions has to be 'No dragons' and therefore you stick to it until proven false, much like it's acceptable to claim 'No Easter Bunny' because no one ever seen one.

Extraordinary claim and all that.

The likelyhood of there being other dragons in ASOIAF, anterior to Daenerys, is however much better than there being a real Easter Bunny in our world, it goes without saying. There has been quite a few elements that hint at that possibility, and you did a good job of compiling several in a previous post. It's still a good default position to say there are none until more definitive evidence comes in. Which very well might come next book because for all we know.

Personally, at this point I'd give an arbitrary 4 to 1 odds on there being other dragons in the worlds in some form at this moment. And 10 gazillion to 1 for the Easter Bunny being real. Send me money by check to the order of Mal Malenkirk, please, I'm an honest bookie, I promise.

[Archmaester Drew]

By that logic we can't claim that something doesn't exist, ever. Which is true in the absolute (it's nigh impossible to prove inexistence of anything outside of mathematical concepts and the like) but not very helpful.

This is a case where the default assumptions has to be 'No dragons' and therefore you stick to it until proven false, much like it's acceptable to claim 'No Easter Bunny' because no one ever seen one.

Extraordinary claim and all that.

The likelyhood of there being other dragons in ASOIAF, anterior to Daenerys, is however much better than there being a real Easter Bunny in our world, it goes without saying. There has been quite a few elements that hint at that possibility, and you did a good job of compiling several in a previous post. It's still a good default position to say there are none until more definitive evidence comes in. Which very well might come next book because for all we know.

Personally, at this point I'd give an arbitrary 4 to 1 odds on there being other dragons in the worlds in some form at this moment. And 10 gazillion to 1 for the Easter Bunny being real. Send me money by check to the order of Mal Malenkirk, please, I'm an honest bookie, I promise.

But is not an extraordinary claim in a world where dragons are very real and known throughout history. Just because they are thought to be extinct locally (i.e., the 'known world') does not mean they don't exist elsewhere. Planetos is larger than Earth. The only 'evidence' yet given that dragons were extinct before Daenerys' is hearsay and the tangential natterings of pyromancers claiming that their foul art has been enhanced by the return of dragons. (Besides, haven't you ever seen a map, "Here be dragons!" ) ;)

[Moqorro's Fire]

TWOIAF

"We can dismiss Mushroom's claim in his Testimony that the dragon Veramax left a clutch of eggs somewhere in the depths of Winterfell's crypts, where the waters of the hot spring run close to the walls, while his rider treated with Cregan Stark at the start of the Dance of the Dragons.As Archmaester Gyldayn notes in his fragmentary history, there is no record of Veramax ever laid so much as a single egg, suggesting the dragon was male. The belief that dragons can change sex is erroneous, according to Maester Anson's truth, rooted in a misunderstanding of the esoteric metaphor that Barth preferred when discussing the higher mysteries." Thats assuming Barth was using a metaphor

Aemon, on his death bed, still believed dragons could change sex (not too sure on this i dont have aFFC infront of me)

Theon notes that the lower levels of Winterfell's crypts are collapsed when he takes Lady Dustin there

There was plenty of fire and blood (possible ingredients to hatching dragons) during the sack of Winterfell

Im not saying for sure that a dragon hatched during the sack of Winterfell, just that there is textual evidance (though a little weak) for it.

NM I thought the argument was against any other dragon and not about dragons born after DV&R

[Mal Malenkirk]

But is not an extraordinary claim in a world where dragons are very real and known throughout history. Just because they are thought to be extinct locally (i.e., the 'known world') does not mean they don't exist elsewhere. Planetos is larger than Earth. The only 'evidence' yet given that dragons were extinct before Daenerys' is hearsay and the tangential natterings of pyromancers claiming that their foul art has been enhanced by the return of dragons. (Besides, haven't you ever seen a map, "Here be dragons!" ) ;)

It's still an extraordinary claim because 150 years is a long time not to have confirmed sightings of Dragons. These are not small and discreet critters that don't need to hunt large game to live...

The likelyhood is much higher that they were indeed gone, IMO. And if you don't agree, take my 4 to 1 odds! ;)

[Suzanna Stormborn]

It's still an extraordinary claim because 150 years is a long time not to have confirmed sightings of Dragons. These are not small and discreet critters that don't need to hunt large game to live...

The likelyhood is much higher that they were indeed gone, IMO. And if you don't agree, take my 4 to 1 odds! ;)

yes this is the main geographic and timeline fact that trumps all. If there are dragons where have they been for 150 years? Hibernating? All of them at the same time? The all texted each other and said "time to hibernate for 200 years, we dont need food." ??

Even Cannibal, who never had a rider was still known to the common folk, people saw him on occasion.

Ill say again, LOTR dragons hibernate, nothing to suggest asoiaf dragons do, especially not for 100+ years.

[Archmaester Drew]

It's still an extraordinary claim because 150 years is a long time not to have confirmed sightings of Dragons. These are not small and discreet critters that don't need to hunt large game to live...

The likelyhood is much higher that they were indeed gone, IMO. And if you don't agree, take my 4 to 1 odds! ;)

yes this is the main geographic and timeline fact that trumps all. If there are dragons where have they been for 150 years? Hibernating? All of them at the same time? The all texted each other and said "time to hibernate for 200 years, we dont need food." ??

Even Cannibal, who never had a rider was still known to the common folk, people saw him on occasion.

Ill say again, LOTR dragons hibernate, nothing to suggest asoiaf dragons do, especially not for 100+ years.

Dragons are naturally reclusive and solitary (e.g., Cannibal and Greyghost, etc.) and rarely seen even when in close proximity to human settled areas like Dragonstone. Just because no one has seen one in 150 years doesn't mean they don't exist. In the real world we have often found species long thought extinct (e.g., coelacanth, or other so-called 'Lazarus taxa"). :)

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Dragons are naturally reclusive and solitary (e.g., Cannibal and Greyghost, etc.) and rarely seen even when in close proximity to human settled areas like Dragonstone. Just because no one has seen one in 150 years doesn't mean they don't exist. In the real world we have often found species long thought extinct (e.g., coelacanth, or other so-called 'Lazarus taxa"). :)

You just said it. They were specifically reclusive dragons, but were still seen on occasion. So if these are reclusive dragons and people still see them sometimes, then a dragon who is not reclusive would be seen even more often.

Now we are getting more specific, for these 'hibernating dragons' to be out of sight completely for 150+ years, they would have to be, not only starving, but the most reclusive animal to have ever lived, even more so than already 'reclusive' dragons like Cannibal. Unless there is another species of dragon living some where (possible) that is more like what you are describing, I think we have our answer here.

And yes I agree about finding new species all the time. However, to be fair, none of these new species are 30 foot tall fire-breathing carnivores who can fly.

I'm sorry but this is a weak argument.

[Archmaester Drew]

You just said it. They were specifically reclusive dragons, but were still seen on occasion. So if these are reclusive dragons and people still see them sometimes, then a dragon who is not reclusive would be seen even more often.

Now we are getting more specific, for these 'hibernating dragons' to be out of sight completely for 150+ years, they would have to be, not only starving, but the most reclusive animal to have ever lived, even more so than already 'reclusive' dragons like Cannibal. Unless there is another species of dragon living some where (possible) that is more like what you are describing, I think we have our answer here.

And yes I agree about finding new species all the time. However, to be fair, none of these new species are 30 foot tall fire-breathing carnivores who can fly.

I'm sorry but this is a weak argument.

I'm sorry, but you've missed my point. Dragons are reclusive, they do not live near humans naturally. The 'wild' dragons on Dragonstone are feral Valyrian dragons and half tame to begin with, thus stuck around Dragonstone. Real wild dragons are rarely seen or reported. We only have a handful of legends of dragons in the histories that are few and far between. The only exception to that is the Valyrian dragons that were domesticated, and thus more common.

Valyrian dragons may be extinct (and their connection to Valyrians and their magic may have something to do with the waxing and waning of magic in general), but this does not mean dragonkind throughout Planetos is extinct.

Dragons may have occasionally been reported, but these reports disregarded as fanciful (as were those of Dany's until there were multiple reports all saying the same thing) -- thus a reclusive population far from humans is quite possible. :)

[Suzanna Stormborn]

I'm sorry, but you've missed my point. Dragons are reclusive, they do not live near humans naturally. The 'wild' dragons on Dragonstone are feral Valyrian dragons and half tame to begin with, thus stuck around Dragonstone. Real wild dragons are rarely seen or reported. We only have a handful of legends of dragons in the histories that are few and far between. The only exception to that is the Valyrian dragons that were domesticated, and thus more common.

Valyrian dragons may be extinct (and their connection to Valyrians and their magic may have something to do with the waxing and waning of magic in general), but this does not mean dragonkind throughout Planetos is extinct.

Dragons may have occasionally been reported, but these reports disregarded as fanciful (as were those of Dany's until there were multiple reports all saying the same thing) -- thus a reclusive population far from humans is quite possible. :)

OK this makes sense and could be true. I still think it is not due to the "for the first time in hundreds of years' line.

But yeah I totally get what you mean. Dragons that already lived in a desolate area and stayed in that area over the past 200 years or however long and were never seen by any human.

[Takiedevushkikakzvezdy]

There has to be more eggs though?

[Archmaester Drew]

"As Daenerys Targaryen rose to her feet, her black hissed, pale smoke venting from its mouth and nostrils. The other two pulled away from her breasts and added their voices to the call, translucent wings unfolding and stirring the air, and for the first time in hundreds of years, the night came alive with the music of dragons." ...

... as heard by human ears. ;)

[Suzanna Stormborn]

... as heard by human ears. ;)

right :)

If a dragon roars and no one hears it, does it exist? lol just a little rhetorical joke.