Video Game Culture 8: everyone is a winnar

[MerenthaClone]

Yeah, I'm going to correct a few impressions here. Eyenon specifically said that the first words he says about a woman were related to her attractiveness. I overstepped and made the leap to "viewing them as a sex object" which isn't fair because I cannot read his mind. Its possible that he internally thought "my god she is a genius in her field!" but his first verbal response was to compliment her physical appearance, for many reasons. Finding someone attractive is not a problem, nor is expressing that attraction appropriately. But making the first thing you state about a woman (multiple different women) consistently be about her physical appearance is a problem. It also, in my opinion, does lead me to suspect that there's a problem with how the person perceives women.

And, to be clear, I'm not saying that's entirely the person's fault. It is, like we're discussing in this thread, influenced by media, specifically media that makes female characters first and foremost sex objects and then fills in the blanks after that.

[Cold Crashing Waves]

And, to be clear, I'm not saying that's entirely the person's fault. It is, like we're discussing in this thread, influenced by media, specifically media that makes female characters first and foremost sex objects and then fills in the blanks after that.

It's called being a guy. We're all dicks, especially the ones that try to act like they aren't (those are usually worse). The same nasty shit is going on in their head.

[eyenon15]

It's really just a guy thing?

I can't even fathom that there are brains that don't form unavoidable reactions and opinions based on people's physical appearance.

I even do it with men and I'm heterosexual. I'll say "there's a good looking guy" or "wow look at that six pack"

I cant just stop myself from having any appearance based thoughts about a person until I have time to observe their other talents and skills. That seems impossible.

[TerraPrime]

Has anyone really said you can't have that first reaction?

Far as I am concerned it's about what people do after that reaction. You can find people hot. You can fantasize about them in your head. But you need to treat the objects of your attraction with respect and you need to accept that being te object if your attraction is not always a welcomed piece of info. There's a time and place and approach for expressing these things.

I like the histrionics of equating expecting respectful behaviors from straight men towards women is seen as a war declaration on the essence of being men, all men. It is the same shitty response I've witnessed since at least 20 yrs ago debating the same topics in a different context with a different crowd. It is so sad that some number of straight men are so confused about what it means to be a man that they roll this type of behavior into the definition.

[eyenon15]

Has anyone really said you can't have that first reaction?.

No, only that it's a problem if you say it out loud many times about many different women.

I'm not talking about going up to women you don't know and telling them they are hot.

I'm talking about things said around friends as in:

"Remember that woman we saw in line at the grocery store yesterday?"

"Yeh, she was hot"

[Cold Crashing Waves]

Has anyone really said you can't have that first reaction?

Far as I am concerned it's about what people do after that reaction. You can find people hot. You can fantasize about them in your head. But you need to treat the objects of your attraction with respect and you need to accept that being te object if your attraction is not always a welcomed piece of info. There's a time and place and approach for expressing these things.

Absolutely, 100%. I was speaking solely on what goes on in a person's head.

[Kalbear]

Not all men have that reaction either. In their head or otherwise.

[Cold Crashing Waves]

Of course you don't, Kalbear.

[Kalbear]

Sorry if that ruined your image of all men. It's a fact that some men don't think about women like that all the time. In fact it appears to be fairly cultural and learned behavior.

But you can look up the research if you're so inclined.

[eyenon15]

Hey! Thinking many women are beautiful is not a choice! I was born this way.

[Crom Dubh]

Of course you don't, Kalbear.

Why is it so important to you that all men share in this behavior with you? Stating something is true does not make it so, and you're stereotyping an entire gender based on your own actions, which is not only wrong, it's astoundingly arrogant.

[juanml82]

No, only that it's a problem if you say it out loud many times about many different women.

I'm not talking about going up to women you don't know and telling them they are hot.

I'm talking about things said around friends as in:

"Remember that woman we saw in line at the grocery store yesterday?"

"Yeh, she was hot"

And that's wrong because? What is the other guy going to say? "Oh, yes, I've read her mind while she was in the line and she's an exemplary mother who's also a professional and has time to excel in her upper management job while still taking care of her kids" You're making a hypothetical about a woman and some guys who's only contact with her was watching her. What else can they remark about her?

[Suttree]

Calling people who disagree with you

- harpies, and

- life-hating prudes, who

- despise male desire because men don't find them attractive

is pretty nasty. It is also, unsurprisingly, problematically gendered.

You know, it's basically saying that anyone who disagrees with you a shrill, unattractive woman that no man wants to fuck anyway. Which, even if it were true, is irrelevant. And again, is problematic by virtue of the fact that it posits that not being desired sexually by a man is some kind of indication of inherent value.

It also ignores the fact that many of the people who find this kind of thing objectionable are, in fact, men themselves.

This.

Ramsay in the rush to defend himself let the curtain slip a good deal more than he wanted.

[Lyanna Stark]

No, I was responding appropriately to a flat out ugly idea - that male desire is inherently wrong/oppressive/whatever and that men are a "problem" for pointing out a woman's attractiveness. Fuck that. It's an awful stance, anti-man but also anti-woman. Of course there's a time and place, and such things are inappropriate in certain situations. But there is nothing inherently wrong with voicing "wow she's hot."

But this is beside the issue - if most women in video games are oversexualized objects (I don't own enough to comment) than that is a bad thing.

Also, not a conservative. Don't know how many times I have to say that around here.

Do you equate "male desire" by vocalising your views on women's bodies every time a woman appears who you find attractive? Can you see why this behaviour really has nothing to do with "desire" at all? It's pushing your views on somebody onto them, often unwelcome.

In fact, a lot of women have testified that they/we do not appreciate being told we're pretty by a random dude while we are on our way to work/on the bus/train/in a professional setting/etc. since it's very often out of context. There are several problems with that:

1. It sets off creep alarms. What does this guy want? Is he a creep? A potential danger? If you respond you can invite further attention, if you don't, then perhaps anger. The first concern is always safety.

2. Often I actually don't appreciate being told I look pretty or whatever by men I do not want to ever consider in a sexual context. In fact, I often want to be just a "person" to a lot of people. Perhaps in my professional capacity, or hobbies or whatever, I don't want my gender and my looks to even be taken into account. By commenting on my looks, then I know, and everyone around knows, that I have been valued based on my femininity, my sexual attractiveness and other physical attributes, which are not relevant and in fact just placed my gender and body first, even in context when that is not welcome, wished for or wanted.

3. Hence "complimenting" a woman on her looks if you don't know her well or in the wrong context is actually not a compliment.

So to get back to this, is always being able to express your desire then what should trump everything else? Obviously there are times and places where it is appropriate and positive, but there are also times when it is not. We are taught by our culture that the finest compliment anyone can give to a woman is that she is pretty, good looking, beautiful, pleasing to the eye and as women we are taught that we should appreciate this. However, then we are often reducing women to body and rating women based on sexual attractiveness.

Just like you did when you called people "harpies" which implies ugly shrill women who can't get laid, as a negative.

So yes, quite often there can be a problem with pointing out a woman's attractiveness (or lack thereof). Again, depends on how it is done and in what context. There is a huge difference to how you interact with people in a club to how you interact with people in a professional setting, for instance. Plus it is worth to keep in mind that when vocalising your views on various women's attractiveness to them, our loud, some of them will then be concerned for their safety. So my question to you then is: is it worth it for you to be able to say what you please and the women who feel scared/unsafe/creeped out should just shut up and put up? Or would you be willing to consider context before voicing your views?

EDIT: A quote from Margaret Atwood, appropriate for this discussion:

“Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them.”

[Cold Crashing Waves]

Why is it so important to you that all men share in this behavior with you?

It isn't.

Stating something is true does not make it so

Absolutely.

you're stereotyping an entire gender based on your own actions, which is not only wrong, it's astoundingly arrogant.

It's also 100% true.

[emberling]

wow, so many things in my life would have been so much easier if I'd known for 100% truth that any person who sees female characters first and foremost as anything but sex objects must necessarily be something other than a man.

[TrueMetis]

It's also 100% true.

Prove it.

[Cold Crashing Waves]

wow, so many things in my life would have been so much easier if I'd known for 100% truth that any person who sees female characters first and foremost as anything but sex objects must necessarily be something other than a man.

That's not what I said or meant at all.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

CCW,

That's not what I said or meant at all.

Then this is your opportunity, to use more than 120 characters, to explain exactly what it is you did mean. Continuing to throw out one or two line denials of earlier statements is the equivalent of responding to any argument or attempt at discussion with "nuh ua".

Elaborate. Write more than a single paragraph in the course of your explanation. You are not on twitter here.

[juanml82]

Do you equate "male desire" by vocalising your views on women's bodies every time a woman appears who you find attractive? Can you see why this behaviour really has nothing to do with "desire" at all? It's pushing your views on somebody onto them, often unwelcome.

In fact, a lot of women have testified that they/we do not appreciate being told we're pretty by a random dude while we are on our way to work/on the bus/train/in a professional setting/etc. since it's very often out of context. There are several problems with that:

1. It sets off creep alarms. What does this guy want? Is he a creep? A potential danger? If you respond you can invite further attention, if you don't, then perhaps anger. The first concern is always safety.

2. Often I actually don't appreciate being told I look pretty or whatever by men I do not want to ever consider in a sexual context. In fact, I often want to be just a "person" to a lot of people. Perhaps in my professional capacity, or hobbies or whatever, I don't want my gender and my looks to even be taken into account. By commenting on my looks, then I know, and everyone around knows, that I have been valued based on my femininity, my sexual attractiveness and other physical attributes, which are not relevant and in fact just placed my gender and body first, even in context when that is not welcome, wished for or wanted.

3. Hence "complimenting" a woman on her looks if you don't know her well or in the wrong context is actually not a compliment.

So to get back to this, is always being able to express your desire then what should trump everything else? Obviously there are times and places where it is appropriate and positive, but there are also times when it is not. We are taught by our culture that the finest compliment anyone can give to a woman is that she is pretty, good looking, beautiful, pleasing to the eye and as women we are taught that we should appreciate this. However, then we are often reducing women to body and rating women based on sexual attractiveness.

Just like you did when you called people "harpies" which implies ugly shrill women who can't get laid, as a negative.

So yes, quite often there can be a problem with pointing out a woman's attractiveness (or lack thereof). Again, depends on how it is done and in what context. There is a huge difference to how you interact with people in a club to how you interact with people in a professional setting, for instance. Plus it is worth to keep in mind that when vocalising your views on various women's attractiveness to them, our loud, some of them will then be concerned for their safety. So my question to you then is: is it worth it for you to be able to say what you please and the women who feel scared/unsafe/creeped out should just shut up and put up? Or would you be willing to consider context before voicing your views?

EDIT: A quote from Margaret Atwood, appropriate for this discussion:

“Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them.”

And this is an example of sexually conservative/negative feminism. Why should people believe there is something wrong in being attractive or that remarking someone's beauty means that's the only positive quality that person has?

And in any case, isn't this thread about videogames?