Anyone let down by Andal and First Men history?

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Maybe because things have often been told from a Stark perspective and they have a bit of northern superiority going on.

To be fair, they survived a foreign onslaught with none of their lands lost and preserved their way of life. That is badass.You have to admire a culture to stands up to invaders who think they are superior like the Indians did and the Irish.

[Bironic]

While I read ASOIAF/D&E I thought the stark way of life is more or less the first men way of life, but after TWOIAF almost all southerners are first men too. The main cultural difference doesn't seem to be first men vs. andal, but southerners vs. northerners. Dorne & Iron Islands excluded.

If you compare andal invasion of westeros with indoeuropean invasion of europe, the andals didn't have much impact, I find that a bit odd actually.

Other comparison could be andals= Anglosaxon, first men=celts/britons, still the andals would have much less impact than the real world anglosaxon.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

While I read ASOIAF/D&E I thought the stark way of life is more or less the first men way of life, but after TWOIAF almost all southerners are first men too. The main cultural difference doesn't seem to be first men vs. andal, but southerners vs. northerners. Dorne & Iron Islands excluded.

If you compare andal invasion of westeros with indoeuropean invasion of europe, the andals didn't have much impact, I find that a bit odd actually.

Other comparison could be andals= Anglosaxon, first men=celts/britons, still the andals would have much less impact than the real world anglosaxon.

Most southern aristocracy is of First Men descent but they changed their religion, they set aside the Old Gods. Things that were First Men in origin took on an Andal tone. How many maesters worship the old gods? Northerners do 'tourneys' but they don't do show fights, the strong survive. There are few 'Knights' as Knighthood is tied to the Septons, northerners have warriors like the Greatjon. The Greatjon is a good man but he's not taking chivalry vows.

There is a definite tone of Andal sophistication and First Men savagery. Andals had writing so their account must be true, First Men have stories that must be fantastical or downright lies. Andals may not have toppled many bloodlines but they got into their heads.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

I thought the Estermonts were First Men.

And Mormont sounds very Andal, they don't strike me as a First Men house.

Yeah I couldn't tell, but it said that Estermont fell to the Andals I just assumed those were the Estermonts. The rest are all certain.

Mormont are northern and definitely First Men. Perhaps you're getting confused since Jorah is a knight? Jorah is only a knight because he scaled the walls of Pyke during the Greyjoy Rebellion, the same reason that Thoros of Myr is a knight.

[Winterfell is Burning]

Yeah I couldn't tell, but it said that Estermont fell to the Andals I just assumed those were the Estermonts. The rest are all certain.

Mormont are northern and definitely First Men. Perhaps you're getting confused since Jorah is a knight? Jorah is only a knight because he scaled the walls of Pyke during the Greyjoy Rebellion, the same reason that Thoros of Myr is a knight.

No, just because Mormont seems an Andal name, and we know Bear Island didn't always belonged to the Mormonts, so the one who was given it by the Stark that won it in a wrestling match might have been an Andal.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

No, just because Mormont seems an Andal name, and we know Bear Island didn't always belonged to the Mormonts, so the one who was given it by the Stark that won it in a wrestling match might have been an Andal.

Yeah the Woodfoots held it before them. Whom are definitely First Men.Mor is leaf litter, and mont is mountain. So Mormont is Leaf Litter Mountain or Forest Floor Mountain, which is a First Men thing.

That naming system isn't perfect. Its pretty good, but lots of names could go either way.

Some Andals that sound FM are Marbrand (mar is ruin something, and brand is burn, so Marbrand is essentially just fire) and Cuy (short) or Kyndall (kindle).

And some FM that sound Andal are Fossoway (very long), Massey and Selmy.

[Dofs]

I won't say that I am let down by how the conquest of Andals occurred. I do find it really strange though that numerous times in the book it is said that Andals conquered all the Southern kingdoms yet in the Westerlands section it is said that they got their asses kicked numerous of times and later began to live there only because Lannisters allowed them to. How exactly that was a 'conquest'? In the Reach section it is even worse - Andals never really invaded there at all because Gardeners allowed them to live in the Reach straight away. Yet it was written in that section that never a conquest was less bloodless. Well, may be I need to change my dictionary but who exactly did Andals 'conquer' in the Reach?

[Ramsay's Penguins]

I won't say that I am let down by how the conquest of Andals occurred. I do find it really strange though that numerous times in the book it is said that Andals conquered all the Southern kingdoms yet in the Westerlands section it is said that they got their asses kicked numerous of times and later began to live there only because Lannisters allowed them to. How exactly that was a 'conquest'? In the Reach section it is even worse - Andals never really invaded there at all because Gardeners allowed them to live in the Reach straight away. Yet it was written in that section that never a conquest was less bloodless. Well, may be I need to change my dictionary but who exactly did Andals 'conquer' in the Reach?

I think the Andals glorify the invasion, making it a conquest. It was never a conquest.

This is the situation in each region during the invasion.

North: Was not conquered, invasions stopped at the Neck and Theon Stark went to Andalos and wrecked stuff there.

Riverlands: Mudds united the First Men to fight the Andals, Mudds were obliterated, but there was still many First Men houses abound and they are pretty much the major houses in the riverlands.

Vale: Was really the only area conquered. The First Men united under Robar Royce, while the Andals united under Artys Arryn who was triumphant. But many of the largest Vale houses are First Men in origin

Iron Islands: The Hoares married Andals, and took on their laws and grew powerful from it. Most other houses rejected the Andals.

Westerlands: At first there was fighting, but eventually they were assimilated into the area. Quite a few of the largest Westerlands houses are Andals, but quite a few aren't.

Crownlands: Was part of the Stormlands and Riverlands, so whatever happened in those areas.

Stormlands: The Durrandons lost a lot of their lands (Masseys Hook, Estermont, Tarth) to Andals and fighting was quite bloody, but neither prevailed. In the end the Durrandons married Andals, and reclaimed their lands.

Reach: Thanks to the three sage Gardener kings, the Andals were assimilated into the area. Knighthood and the Faith were really popular and took the area by storm, but every major Reach house is a First Men house.

Dorne: Andals populated the areas surrounding the Greenblood and Brimstone river, but were stopped there.

There was just fighting stopped by marriages. Lots of fighting. Any power that was lost by the First Men was quickly regained.

[Bironic]

Any power that was lost by the First Men was quickly regained.

I think that this is actually the conclusion we can get from TWOIAF, while in ASOIAF the andal invasion is described as: Most first men in the south lost their power.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

I think that this is actually the conclusion we can get from TWOIAF, while in ASOIAF the andal invasion is described as: Most first men in the south lost their power.

Well yeah, because writing came with the Andals, they could pretty much write history as they pleased. I imagine that this is the truer version. The Andals were more violent settlers then conquerors, but they don't want us to know that!

I've grown quite fond of the Andals. They aren't a cool race, like the Valyrians of First Men or Rhoynar. There just average people with steel.

[naseridrl]

I think when Westeros (minus the North) took on the Seven the Andals considered that conquest. An entire nation almost took on the religion of a relatively small invasion force I'd consider that conquest if I was an Andal believer. They did change Westeros in a big way with the Faith of the Seven becoming dominant.

[Mr Fixit]

Well, if we go a little meta, looks to me that Martin changed his mind somewhere along the way. If over two thirds of the houses in the books are of First Men origin, I'd expect that Martin, known for his meticulous worlduilding, would have remarked upon that in some way in the novels. However, he continuously implied that guys like Brackens, Blackwoods, and Royces are some kind of rarity in the south, one of the few of the "old nobility" that made it through. But if almost everyone is of FM heritage, it's hardly worth pointing those guys out (except for Blackwoods, I guess, since they still worship the Old Gods).

[Ramsay's Penguins]

Well, if we go a little meta, looks to me that Martin changed his mind somewhere along the way. If over two thirds of the houses in the books are of First Men origin, I'd expect that Martin, known for his meticulous worlduilding, would have remarked upon that in some way in the novels. However, he continuously implied that guys like Brackens, Blackwoods, and Royces are some kind of rarity in the south, one of the few of the "old nobility" that made it through. But if almost everyone is of FM heritage, it's hardly worth pointing those guys out (except for Blackwoods, I guess, since they still worship the Old Gods).

I think those to stand out because of the Blackwoods worshipping the Old Gods and you know, the giant weirwood full of ravens, and the Royces famous rune armour.

I just wonder how much heritage can be called upon though. Nine Gardeners married Tyrells, so they have a heap of Andal blood, but in the Reach section all the heavy hitters are First Men.

The top 5 Andal houses from my list would be

Tarth

Mallister

Corbray

Arryn

Martell

Marbrand

There is like 5 other major Andal houses?

Major houses that are First Men in the Reach alone outnumber these.

Like I said, southerners (besides Dornish and Ironborn) are just First Men who follow the Faith.

Now we prepare for massive skinchanger army from the south against the Others.

[AryaNymeriaVisenya]

Did Tarth marry the Evenstars, if they call themselves The Evenstar with no relation then that is in really poor taste

I don't think there are many skinchangers if any in the south. They didn't get it on with the Children as much as the northerners ;)

We only really know about the Brackens because they hate Blackwoods. Blackwoods being the more important. Brackens are the Oakhearts to Blackwoods' Daynes.

[jet199]

Well, if we go a little meta, looks to me that Martin changed his mind somewhere along the way. If over two thirds of the houses in the books are of First Men origin, I'd expect that Martin, known for his meticulous worlduilding, would have remarked upon that in some way in the novels. However, he continuously implied that guys like Brackens, Blackwoods, and Royces are some kind of rarity in the south, one of the few of the "old nobility" that made it through. But if almost everyone is of FM heritage, it's hardly worth pointing those guys out (except for Blackwoods, I guess, since they still worship the Old Gods).

I think GRRM definitely changed his mind. Originally there were no weirwoods south of the neck, then every major house has one. I think at some point he realised that he needed the CotF's magics to be stronger than they originally were so first men culture and weirwoods needed to be in the south as well. However, I think he always meant the south to be genetically mixed rather than pure andel hence the number of southern houses which have animal sigils, which I have always thought related to lost skinchanging abilities.

[naseridrl]

Everyone has first men blood though. Whether it be through female or male line, they were the dominant people in Westeros by numbers so the Andals had to marry them often, no one is pure blood anything anymore. Unless you slaughter everyone in the land and start afresh every conqueror has the blood of the conquered in their next generations.

[Ramsay's Penguins]

Did Tarth marry the Evenstars, if they call themselves The Evenstar with no relation then that is in really poor taste

I don't think there are many skinchangers if any in the south. They didn't get it on with the Children as much as the northerners ;)

We only really know about the Brackens because they hate Blackwoods. Blackwoods being the more important. Brackens are the Oakhearts to Blackwoods' Daynes.

Yeah it was a joke :P

The Tarths removed the Evenstars, and now call themselves the Evenstars. Wow Brienne, just wow.

More like the Oakhearts are the Brackens to the Daynes Blackwoods. The Brackens and Blackwoods have been dueling it out since the Age of Heroes! They are the original enemy houses. Leaf knight and star sword are just a pissy little argument compared to the Brackwood feud.

I think GRRM definitely changed his mind. Originally there were no weirwoods south of the neck, then every major house has one. I think at some point he realised that he needed the CotF's magics to be stronger than they originally were so first men culture and weirwoods needed to be in the south as well. However, I think he always meant the south to be genetically mixed rather than pure andel hence the number of southern houses which have animal sigils, which I have always thought related to lost skinchanging abilities.

And its not a bad idea. Crane were crane skinchangers, Crakehalls come from a boar killer called Crake, some think Lann warged the lions, one Bulwer grew bulls horns. It's not a bad change, but to make things feel equal I think it is necessary that the remaining major houses which we know little about (quite a few from the Stormlands weren't assigned a race) and houses like Mallister and Frey deserve to be Andals.

EVERYONES AN ANDAL a First Man in origin but they all married Andals because the Andals wouldn't go away FAITH OF THE SEVEN the CotF are literally hiding everywhere in Westeros FIRST MEN GOT SCREWED the First Men largely remained in power except for a major change in religion and the concepts of words and knighthood were introduced to Westeros.

Aka the First Men needed an upgrade.

[naseridrl]

I don't think there are many skinchangers if any in the south. They didn't get it on with the Children as much as the northerners ;)

There seems to have been lots of Children south of the neck though when the Andals came The COTF seem to have been fine in the south until the Andals came, whereas in the North there seems to have been more wars fought.. Many families worked with them or consulted them in the South on what to do with these invaders.

[Maia]

I think GRRM definitely changed his mind. Originally there were no weirwoods south of the neck, then every major house has one.

Oddly enough,the turnaround already happened within AGoT. In her first chapter Cat was ruminating about the cut weirwoods in the South, how Riverrun godswood was a park rather than a place of worship and that Winterfell weirwood made her uneasy, while in the end we saw Robb praying before a _carved weirwood_ in Riverrun. Also, in AGoT a lot of southern of nobles already have First Men-style names, like Oakheart, Greenfield, Hunter, Redfort, Swyft, Crane, Swann, etc., etc. In this light, the supposed total Andal dominance always seemed a bit weird. So, the stuff in WOIAF isn't coming wholly out of the blue.

Frankly, after WOIAF I am seriously wondering if Hoster's and Brynden's mother wasn't a Blackwood, because Bran was also afraid of WF weirwood before his fall. It would explain the young and slender, but carved weirwood in Riverrun godswood...

[Free Northman Reborn]

I think people just fail to realize that the First Men likely outnumbered the Andals by about 10-1. So the Andals had no choice but to assimilate wit them.