The Hound's moral alignment?

[Woman of War]

The point here is that you seem to want to treat Tyrion and Sandor differently, when the truth of the matter is that Tyrion really isn't that much of a better ethical actor than Sandor is.

.....

What are you talking about?? I did not want to treat Tyrion in this thread at all.

You must have confused my post with someone else's post. I did not mention Tyrion at all in it, I merely answered to your post , when you suggested that Tyrion and Sandor should have left together, which is a little absurd. Tyrion was not even part of my arguing before you brought up his name.

And in the debate about Sandor's ethics Tyrion's ethics are simply not really relevant. Why did you bring up his name and what do you expect me to answer?

This was my first post in this thread. No Tyrion in it at all:

Posted by Woman of War on Today, 03:06 AM in General (ASoIaF)

Sandor is meant by Martin to be a horrible character, someone who starts as monster, who chops a child to pieces, emotionlessly because he is ordered to do so and who laughs about it.

His remark about the likes of Lollys and Tyrion, "If you can't protect yourself, die and get out of the way of those who can" is pure hatespeech against "life that is unworthy of life", allegedly lower than he is because born that way while he himself is strong. Advocating eugenics, we would call it today.

No, his darkness is, given to the horrible fate of many in those books, only a small justification for the little boy who got burned by his brother. His approach to other human beings is seeing them as lesser ones who are too dumb to understand how the world works while he sees himself as utterly despicable and yet superior to others for having the insight it takes for survival. Humiliating and absolute arrogance at the same time. "Sharp steel and strong arms rule this world (meaning: I am part of those superior while you are nil), don't ever believe any different."

And yet in his insecurity he is a hugely interesting literary invention, getting moved into questioning himself by two children, seeing the mirror in one and the porcelainelike ideal in the other. He is doomed to be broken by his own vulnerability. While one girl spared him the other will be his doom the one or other way. Given their violent dynamics we could expect Sansa to be the victim if she oversteps his ideal of her. But it might well be Sandor who will die not only for Sansa but through her.......

....if he ever leaves his Quiet Isle since staying there would be the ending closest to happy his character can expect.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

The Hound could of left, but even when realizing his situation was changing and becoming more and more intolerable to him still takes a while. His small protections of Sansa, his growing disgust of King Joffery, his moral dilemmas all had to coalesce until finally his fear of fire pushed him over the edge.

This is a fair assessment. My problem was that people were ignoring the Fire part and just saying he left because he was "finally fed up with the Lannisters". No, he left because of the fire. BUT he didn't feel like anything was holding him there anymore either. It wasn't a particularly noble thing, but it was a good thing in the end. I really feel it's similar to Jaime and the Letter. I think both characters did the right thing for their respective moral progression, but kinda for the wrong reasons.

[~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

I actually believe Sandor is one of the most honorable people in these books. He is harsh yes, but I am sure that underneath the gruffness and the fierceness is a truly good person. As Lord Beric said, Sandor Clegane would gladly kill us all, but he would not do it in our sleep. Even Beric sees the honor in Sandor. What he did to Mycah was awful, but as George constantly shows us there is good and bad in everyone. The shadow side of our personalities.

He regrets that he did not do more to protect Sansa. He loves her and I believe his actions with Arya were because of his love for Sansa. Yes, he needed the reward, but that was because Beric took all his money away from him. His face makes him an immediate monster on site. This is so completely unfair, so of course he is defensive and mean but he has a goodness in him that most people do not recognize because of his face and size. He is brutal but he also did what he had to to keep Arya alive at the Red Wedding even though he knew he had no chance of a reward.

He also did not allow Loras to be killed by his brother. Sandor is one of my favorite characters. I still wish that he and Sansa will somehow get together. I keep saying it and keep hoping it.

[kimim]

Sandor (and Jaime) start off as evil characters, but both have something resembling a conscience. Both are capable of looking back at what they did with some pain, Sandor, especially. Sandor detests having to do what he does, detests the people he has to serve, detests his family, the whole concept of knighthood. He detests himself, most of all. He takes his time leaving, then goes through the dreaded redemptive arc.

I like him very much. His present alignment is good, imo. May he keep digging graves, and be at peace.

[Le Cygne]

As I see it, the Sandor that only wanted a song from Sansa is the REAL Sandor, not the monster that kills children. He could have taken her with him, or force her. He didn't. That's NOT what he is. That's what his brother is, a rapist and a murderer. He did the right thing: he left Sansa alone.

...yet, the "right thing" didn't work out for Sansa. She was married to the imp. As far as Sandor knows, Tyrion has had sex with her, and probably against her will. That's the motivation of his outburst "I did the right thing and yet, she was hurt and taken from me?". Of course, Sandor is not naive to pretend he would marry Sansa, but he does feel protective about her, and by taking away her "innocence", he probably felt THAT was taken from him.

Nicely said...

The fire, too, the author has emphasized the fire was a big factor in commentary as well as the official app and Sansa, too, But Sansa understood. She knew the secret of his burned face. It was only the fire he feared. And then she went on to cup his cheek and pretend they kissed, she got the subtext, just before that she thought, Harsh as he was, she did not believe Sandor Clegane would let any harm come to her.

Taking things literally in this series is never good, but one misses most of the story taking Sandor literally, Jaime is another one, these two characters often mean the opposite of what they say. And here, he's saying, it's been bothering him all this time to see them beat her, "No one would hurt you again, or I'd kill them," and then he sobs about them beating her while dying.

Clearly, she meant a lot to him, he wanted to protect her, and saying to hell with them had a lot to do with the beatings, that was something that bothered him a lot. We have several examples where he's trying to help her avoid the beatings, stop the beatings, and resentful of those who beat her (calling Boros a toad to his face while covering for Sansa once again, for example).

[OldGimletEye]

Taking things literally in this series is never good, but one misses most of the story taking Sandor literally, Jaime is another one, these two characters often mean the opposite of what they say. And here, he's saying, it's been bothering him all this time to see them beat her, "No one would hurt you again, or I'd kill them," and then he sobs about them beating her while dying.

Yes, you always have to watch for the case of Sandor speak strikes again. Just as an example, after fighting Beric, Sandor tells Arya how he let them beat her sister. He didn't bother tell her how he had said "enough". Sandor does often portray himself in the worst light possible, I think.

[Le Cygne]

Yes, you always have to watch for the case of Sandor speak strikes again. Just as an example, after fighting Beric, Sandor tells Arya how he let them beat her sister. He didn't bother tell her how he had said "enough". Sandor does like to often portray himself in the worst light possible, I think.

That's true.

And he protected Sansa quite a lot, and there was risk involved, saying "Enough" when the king has a crossbow in his hands, that took guts. Braving a 30 to 1 mob to save her, no one else cared enough to do that, and he pulled it off, too. And coming to take her from the city, that was risky, too.

Similarly Arya, that's another taking it literally bit with the ransom, the author gave away that wasn't what it was about with the first words he uttered, "the little sister." It was about Sansa. And he saved her twice at the Twins, he could have ridden off both times, but the second time he rode headfirst into a massacre...

Also, it's telling that Sansa thinks he's there to rescue her once again at the Fingers...

[LongRider]

This is a fair assessment. My problem was that people were ignoring the Fire part and just saying he left because he was "finally fed up with the Lannisters". No, he left because of the fire. BUT he didn't feel like anything was holding him there anymore either. It wasn't a particularly noble thing, but it was a good thing in the end. I really feel it's similar to Jaime and the Letter. I think both characters did the right thing for their respective moral progression, but kinda for the wrong reasons.

Perhaps, but the most important thing I think, is he left, wrong reasons or not.

:)

[Le Cygne]

A large part of his motivation was protecting Sansa. He didn't want to leave Sansa alone there, without his protection. The fire forced his hands. That's why he stopped to take her with him as he was leaving. "I'm going... I could keep you safe." She knew that's what he was there for, she said he "offered to take her from the city."

The official app: "During the Battle of the Blackwater, Clegane leads a force attempting to hold the King's Gate, but is unable to fulfill his duties due to his fear of the burning wildfire raging on the river and on the docks. Instead, he finds his way to Sansa Stark's chambers, where he forces her to sing him a song while trying to work up the courage to take her with him out of the city."

Also she says he left her: "He took a song and a kiss, and left me nothing but a bloody cloak." And he says he left her, he sobs about "leaving her" while dying. And they both seem to regret that.

And he was fed up with them, he said so, too. "No one would hurt you again, or I'd kill them." And "Bugger Joffrey, bugger the queen, and bugger that twisted little gargoyle she calls a brother" seems rather definitive, too. Also, Tyrion sent him out in the fire, that was brutal. That's why he said, "I want him burned. If the gods are good, they'll burn him..."

(Fixed the quotes...)

[OldGimletEye]

Perhaps, but the most important thing I think, is he left, wrong reasons or not.

:)

Exactly. Sandor needed to get away from the Lannisters or he'd would have probably been lost forever. He was exactly the type of dude that needed an "intervention". Fortunately, The Batte of The Blackwater provided it.

[Le Cygne]

Exactly. Sandor needed to get away from the Lannisters or he'd would have probably been lost forever. He was exactly the type of dude that needed an "intervention". Fortunately, The Batte of The Blackwater provided it.

And Sansa... She became quite important to him...

[midi]

Chaotic Neutral or Neutral Evil. His brother is Chaotic Evil.

Even evil characters can do good things and care for some people. It's just that when most of the stuff they ACTUALLY DO is evil that makes them evil-aligned.

[OldGimletEye]

And Sansa... She became quite important to him...

Absolutely. She definitely acted as a major catalyst for him.

[Seaworth'sShipmate]

Personally, I think Sansa was better off escaping with Littlefinger, than running off with the Hound.

I just think if she did, it would have been more likely she would have been discovered.

I don't think people cared to search for her quite as much after Joffrey died because (a) Everyone thinks they found Joffrey's killer and ( b)there is another queen to be in the form of Margarey.

Also, Littlefinger is far better at being undetected. I just think the Hound would stick out like a sore thumb, even more so with an attractive red haired girl that couldn't disguise herself as a boy the way Arya did.

[Le Cygne]

She's wanted for regicide now. People are searching for her, big time.

And she's not at all safe with Littlefinger.

She has been in grave danger repeatedly, both at Kings Landing, and at the Eyrie. Cersei wants her dead.

[midi]

She's wanted for regicide now. People are searching for her, big time.

And she's not at all safe with Littlefinger.

Safer than she would've been the The Hound. Just picture it, the two of them traveling together Arya and The Hound -style... She wouldn't stay a virgin for long. The Hound is more than a little bit rapey

[Seaworth'sShipmate]

She's wanted for regicide now. People are searching for her, big time.

And she's not at all safe with Littlefinger.

She has been in grave danger repeatedly, both at Kings Landing, and at the Eyrie. Cersei wants her dead.

Of course Cersei is hellbent on searching for her, but then again, Cersei and competence don't always go together do they?

Im just saying Littlefinger pulled off quite the trick by smuggling her into the Eyrie, and I doubt she could have been as undetected if she went with the Hound.

Not safe sexually perhaps, but I do think Littlefinger wants and needs her alive. And now that that crazy old witch Lysa was thrown out the moon door, the greatest danger for Sansa has passed (for now). Im not at all certain Varys has any "little birds" in the Eyrie either.

[Le Cygne]

Of course Cersei is hellbent on searching for her, but then again, Cersei and competence don't always go together do they?

Im just saying Littlefinger pulled off quite the trick by smuggling her into the Eyrie, and I doubt she could have been as undetected if she went with the Hound.

Not safe sexually perhaps, but I do think Littlefinger wants and needs her alive. And now that that crazy old witch Lysa was thrown out the moon door, the greatest danger for Sansa has passed (for now). Im not at all certain Varys has any "little birds" in the Eyrie either.

I was also going to mention, she's not "undetected" - Bronze Yohn recognized her. Myranda Royce surely knows who she is. As do others. Also, the Mad Mouse appeared in her last chapter, he found her, too. And he mentioned Varys and the reward money just prior to that.

Oh, and add a forced marriage to her list of woes since then. Forced marriage, regicide, and attempts to rape and murder her and use her for her claim, repeatedly, all since then. And Littlefinger wants more, he said so in her last chapter, as if it wasn't perfectly clear...

If that's safe... Sandor is the one she's hoping will rescue her, so that tells us something about how Sansa sees things... And he's also the one who wouldn't even kiss her when he thought she didn't want to, but now she's pretending they did, also rather revealing.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

Sansa is just where she needs to be. She's gonna take LF down big time.

If that's safe... Sandor is the one she's hoping will rescue her

If Sandor "saves" sansa I just might puke.

And he's also the one who wouldn't even kiss her when he thought she didn't want to,

Uh he didnt kiss her but he did FORCE HER ONTO A BED WITH A KNIFE

Will the romantization of the hound never cease!?!

[Le Cygne]

Well, I think she's going to save Sandor, but... there's more to their story. I keep finding things. He lifted a dozen things from Jane Eyre, for example, right down to specific wording. And there's even a "quiet island" in that story, too. Add to the obvious Beauty and the Beast stuff (very specific there, too), and the unkiss... He's pulling out all the stops with this story.

And just seeing the latest, HE MADE HER SING A SONG. Do the caps help?

SANSA understands, she says, she caressed his cheek. Whatever it is he did, she seems to like it very much. Wherefore art thou, Hound?, for the past two books... And she's going to remember his kiss again in the next. Since it's a story and all, your question should be directed to the author. Is he ever going to stop with the romance? Sure doesn't seem like it...