I'm proud of Robb for marrying Jeyne. I can't say that was a bad decision.

[Annara Snow]

Stannis is still alive.

How exactly does that answer the question?

[Annara Snow]

I said Jeyne grew on Robb after they got married, that he married her out of loyalty and duty. As a reader, when I read about the circumstances surrounding their marriage, the thing that jumped out at me was and still is loyalty and duty. He took her virginity (or at least implied) and so he did what he thought was responsible. Being responsible is not a synonym for love. Since Robb didn't have a pov it is difficult to say for certain how he felt, so I can only go by what's written about his reaction following their consummation.

And what is written is this: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/120886-im-proud-of-robb-for-marrying-jeyne-i-cant-say-that-was-a-bad-decision/page-5#entry6481048 (thanks David Selig for providing Robb's quotes so I don't have to look in the books.)

[Robb_Warged]

Yeah, and as you see unlocking him was a mistake. Why not leave him there? Or put him in your own freaking tent. There wasn't a single person in the entire kingdom that held more value to Robb then Jaime.

IMO, that's the point where he really lost the war.

This is correct but few admit this. No one was of more value to the North than Jaime, with his life being held in their hands. People say Robb fans hold Robb to little accountability and exaggerate the effects of his mom releasing Jaime. Well I feel that way about Cat fans. Giving up Jaime was equal to losing Winterfell. BOTH of those situations were more detrimental to the North's cause than Robb breaking his Frey oath

I've admitted in this thread I was wrong in my OP, but it irks me so much how Cat giving up Jaime is downplayed and Robb's wedding is looked at as the center reason for the North losing.

Everyone made horrible mistakes. But losing your capitol, and losing the most valuable hostage you could possibly have trump breaking a vow that cost you a small portion of your army. It is such a misleading framing of the situation when people always say Robb fans downplay Robb's mistake.

You lose Jaime, you have NOTHING on Tywin Lannister

You lose Wintefrfell, the snake Roose is in a perfect position to take hold of the North ("I should thank you Theon. The Stark cause was lost the night you took Winterfell)

You marry Jeyne, you lose the Frey's support

Lannisters, Boltons, Freys. You tell me which house poses the least threat to King Robb.

I know Robb made a mistake. I've changed my stance since making this thread. But there were worse mistakes made

[Bea Noleto]

Catelyn giving away Jaime lost the Karstarks and that's about it. It was relatively minor in the grand scheme of things anyways because it was already over by that point. Edmure didn't fumble anything at all, Robb gave poor orders and it's his fault alone. Theon taking Winterfell is also Robb's fault because he was the one who sent him back when he was cautioned not to. And Roose wouldn't betray a cause that isn't hopelessly floundering because of his King making horrible decisions. Don't know how Karstark killing children did anything, ordering his men away did though

I agree that marrying Jeyne was a bad decision, but I disagree with blaming Robb for trusting Theon. Catelyn did warn him to not trust Theon, but her distrust is due to prejudice against the Greyjoys, it was a blood thing, she didn't consider Theon's actions. She also has prejudice against Jon, she thinks he would jump at any chance to usurp her children's claim. Robb knew it, and that is one reason why he wasn't persuaded otherwise.

The other is that as far as anyone could see from the outside, he showed loyalty all the time. The only thing I think one could criticize him so far was his impulsiveness. Theon himself didn't know he would betray Robb, he does love him like a brother. Actually, he didn't think he was betraying anyone while he had Winterfell subdued. Theon convenietly left Robb out of his thoughts. No one could see that coming.

One could see Balon attacking the North once his heir is back, but not so soon, because a father is supposed to care for his son's life. That is the reason for having Theon as hostage.

And he would not attack as far as Winterfell. It was not supposed to have such devastating consequences. And if it had worked out Robb would get an alliance, and he was in need of another one. And there is moral side of the decision. Theon was his best friend and had been a prisioner for half of his life. He couldn't even remember his time in the Iron Islands.

It was only a bad decision in hindsight.

[Attitude]

This is correct but few admit this. No one was of more value to the North than Jaime, with his life being held in their hands. People say Robb fans hold Robb to little accountability and exaggerate the effects of his mom releasing Jaime. Well I feel that way about Cat fans. Giving up Jaime was equal to losing Winterfell. BOTH of those situations were more detrimental to the North's cause than Robb breaking his Frey oath

I've admitted in this thread I was wrong in my OP, but it irks me so much how Cat giving up Jaime is downplayed and Robb's wedding is looked at as the center reason for the North losing.

Everyone made horrible mistakes. But losing your capitol, and losing the most valuable hostage you could possibly have trump breaking a vow that cost you a small portion of your army. It is such a misleading framing of the situation when people always say Robb fans downplay Robb's mistake.

You lose Jaime, you have NOTHING on Tywin Lannister

You lose Wintefrfell, the snake Roose is in a perfect position to take hold of the North ("I should thank you Theon. The Stark cause was lost the night you took Winterfell)

You marry Jeyne, you lose the Frey's support

Lannisters, Boltons, Freys. You tell me which house poses the least threat to King Robb.

I know Robb made a mistake. I've changed my stance since making this thread. But there were worse mistakes made

Agreed, there were many other mistakes, but this was the final blow. Still having Jaime would have stopped the RW, because it was too risky to do something like that with jaime's life on the stake. He should've retreated and defend the north. After a while he could sort things out and bend the knee to stannis. Together they could've stopped the lannisters I guess.

But that are all ifs. I live the way the story is right now, and I wouldn't wanne change it.

[Bea Noleto]

Actually he does.

His apology to the Frey women at the RW:

I am not convinced. I think he embelished the whole situation so that his decision wouldn't sound pathetic on top of being foolish, as he admits himself. He was hoping to be forgiven by appealing to the audience's feelings.

[Bea Noleto]

So why does he repeatedly say that he was/is in love with her? Catelyn never questions his veracity and his love for Jeyne, neither does any other character. Where does this assumption that he was lying and never was in love with her come from?

He was probably in love already in the moment he says he loves her. But that was not the reason he married. He married to protect her honor, and perhaps to avoid siring a bastard, because he didn't want his kid to suffer like Jon did. When he was alone with his mother, he didn't say that he was in love with her, and had to marry her because of that. He claimed to marry for love in public in order to save his face a little.

[David Selig]

He was probably in love already in the moment he says he loves her. But that was not the reason he married. He married to protect her honor, and perhaps to avoid siring a bastard, because he didn't want his kid to suffer like Jon did. When he was alone with his mother, he didn't say that he was in love with her, and had to marry her because of that. He claimed to marry for love in public in order to save his face a little.

How is that "saving face"? A noble in Robb's position who marries for love is considered to be a totally irresponsible idiot by his peers.

[Julia H.]

I wonde rif he partially did it to make up for Ned's ;shame; in siring a 'bastard', If only he knew......

It is an interesting thought... Quite apart from how bad the decision was, I wonder to what extent Robb may have been influenced by the fact that he knew how Jon felt about being a bastard, and that even as a bastard who had grown up in his father's castle, Jon was treated with resentment and suspicion (by Catelyn) and often looked down on by strangers. Perhaps Robb did not want to sire a bastard and let him suffer the same.

Robb was never going to bend the knee to the Lannisters, because they killed his father. He says so loud and clear to Catelyn in ASOS, in those exact words

To be honest, Robb would not have had much chance of survival if he had bent the knee. The war would have ended, but, judging from what had happened to Ned, Robb, personally, would almost certainly have sacrificed his life. I know that Ned was to take the black, but he did not die by accident, and after the war being clearly lost by the Starks, the Lannisters would not have wanted to show mercy, not Tywin or Cersei, for sure.

[Bea Noleto]

How is that "saving face"? A noble in Robb's position who marries for love is considered to be a totally irresponsible idiot by his peers.

It doesn't work, obviously for us. But I think he thought appealing to a romantic ideal would make him look better. As someone else said, it makes more sense for him to marry her for love than for her honor, because he could have had protected her honor without losing his.

[CaptainTheo]

I consider Robb marrying Jeyne to be a massive blunder... and another example of the brilliance of Tywin, who set Jeyne up as a honey trap, which Robb fell into. It is even implied that Jeyne seduced Robb, as he said to Catelyn, "she comforted me, mother", although I don't believe that Jeyne was actually in on Tywin's plot (although her mother was).

[Free Northman Reborn]

Robb should have retreated back to the North after the Whispering Wood, and taken Jaime back to live out his life in a northern dungeon as a permanent hostage to peace.

After the Battle of the Camps the Lannisters were reeling. Cross through the secret paths through the Neck, drive the Ironborn from the North and lock the borders to the new Northern kingdom.

Trying to hold the Riverlands was beyond stupid.

[Tywin Manderly]

To be honest, Robb would not have had much chance of survival if he had bent the knee. The war would have ended, but, judging from what had happened to Ned, Robb, personally, would almost certainly have sacrificed his life. I know that Ned was to take the black, but he did not die by accident, and after the war being clearly lost by the Starks, the Lannisters would not have wanted to show mercy, not Tywin or Cersei, for sure.

“Joffrey, when your enemies defy you, you must serve them steel and fire. When they go to their knees, however, you must help them back to their feet. Elsewise no man will ever bend the knee to you. And any man who must say ‘I am the king’ is no true king at all.”

Tywin Lannister would not allow Robb to be killed if he would bend the knee.

Ned's execution was a folly by Joffrey, which could only happen because Tywin was far away in the field. That very stupid decision was most likely whispered into his ear by Littlefinger who wanted a war between the Lannisters and the Starks, This was one of the reasons that Tywin sent Tyrion to King's Landing to serve as Acting Hand of the King.

[Hermione]

I don't like the phrase that a woman trapped a man into marriage, but I believe Jeyne did, either knowingly or unknowingly. She doesn't seem to be too bright, though, so she probably just went along with whatever her mother told her to do. I think Jeyne genuinely cared about Robb, but if she'd been smarter, she'd probably have realised that it would be in the best interest of him and of all his people (and thus eventually her family too) to ask him to take care of her, but not marry her.

What Robb did was both honourable, in that he was willing to face the consequences of his actions without any subterfuge (such as paying someone else to marry Jeyne) and dishonourable, in that he broke a promise he'd already made someone else.

It was a difficult decision to make and whichever choice he made, it would probably have ended badly one way or another (Lady Sybell would still have sold him to Tywin, probably with even more fervour if he'd slighted her daughter), not that he could really foresee all potential consequences of his actions. I agree with the previous posters who said that Robb's story is GRRM's way of showing that sometimes, there is no right thing to do, and that one way or another, Robb's reign was doomed from the start.

[John Doe]

Jeyne could have married the Hornwood bastard. In turn, he could have been legitimized by Robb. A win/win for all three except for the other Westerlings who loose the Crag, but I think thatt would have been the best possibility for Robb.

[Annara Snow]

He was probably in love already in the moment he says he loves her. But that was not the reason he married. He married to protect her honor, and perhaps to avoid siring a bastard, because he didn't want his kid to suffer like Jon did. When he was alone with his mother, he didn't say that he was in love with her, and had to marry her because of that. He claimed to marry for love in public in order to save his face a little.

Yes, he does. "I took her castle and she took my heart." Catelyn never doubts that Robb is in love, why would she? Why would you assume when he's embellishing when he talks about love, but when he talks about honor? The latter sounds better to a Westerosi with traditional values like Catelyn. And, as David Selig pointed out, the idea that he was "saving face" in front of the nobles by talking about marrying fot love makes no sense, to them that would sound awful.

[Annara Snow]

Jeyne could have married the Hornwood bastard. In turn, he could have been legitimized by Robb. A win/win for all three except for the other Westerlings who loose the Crag, but I think thatt would have been the best possibility for Robb.

Why would she need to marry a bastard? She could have not married anyone and waited for a better marriage offer to come along, just as she would if Robb had not come along. Because she was not a virgin anymore? That's not written on her forehead, she and Robb could have simply kept their mouths shut about having slept together.

[John Doe]

Who would you prefer? Don't forget she doesn' bring anything to the marriage since her family lost the Crag.

[Julia H.]

Tywin Lannister would not allow Robb to be killed if he would bend the knee.

Ned's execution was a folly by Joffrey, which could only happen because Tywin was far away in the field. That very stupid decision was most likely whispered into his ear by Littlefinger who wanted a war between the Lannisters and the Starks, This was one of the reasons that Tywin sent Tyrion to King's Landing to serve as Acting Hand of the King.

Despite the quote you quoted, I think the Starks at this point would be different for the Lannisters. Ned's death cannot be undone and Robb's war against them was quite successful for a while - the northmen even captured Jaime. Robb was chosen king. If Robb just retreats to the North at the end of the war, he might rise again. It is likely that he would at least be required to take the black (as Ned had been). Then he could die in a strange "accident" even if he were formally pardoned.

IMO, it is significant that those words were told to Joffrey - the prince who was not only cruel but also reckless and not particularly bright. I suspect that there is a second part to the advice, which Joffrey did not need to hear, and it may go something like "if you always forgive the rebels, no one will fear you". My impression is that Tywin liked to be feared. I remember he punished common soldiers (who were begging for mercy) in an especially cruel way in order to make an example of them for all the others. He might want to make an example of Robb as well, as the rebel who went too far.

Besides, the very thing that you mention - Joffrey being manipulated into that folly by Littlefinger - could be repeated (not necessarily with Joffrey and Littlefinger though). There could be people who would want Robb to die all the same (Cersei, for example?), and it really does not take much to get someone killed, as we saw in the case of Ned.

[Acnologia Targaryen]

After reading what happened with egg's kids and this same thing man i want to slap robb even more.