Social Justice Warriors, Unite, again!

[Gears of the Beast]

This thread isn't about Islam. Someone posted a link about Erdogan and you linked that to Muslims in general. Taking an individual's statement to mean 'why are you surprised Muslims are sexist' is quite a leap, and one you seem to have made. Hence my comment about all Muslims above.

Republicans=members of a political party. By choice, as adults. Confined to the USA only.

Muslims=followers of a religion. By birth, in most cases, as infants. Present all over the world.

If you can't see the difference, good luck. It isn't my job to explain it to you.

And that's why I said in the context of what I said, because (as crazy as it sounds) my point does not rely on Muslims and Republicans being the exact same thing.

[Crixus]

Then what does it rely on? Do you understand there are many sects of Islam, and many different types of Muslims, ranging from those 'in name only'* like me, to those who follow all the rituals, to a VAST majority between? For example, my husband drinks but won't have pork. That's just a tiny example, with millions like it.

For you to link Erdogan with 'Muslims' as if they're one and the same, and for you not to understand something as basic as the concept that Muslims are not one huge monolithic entity, is either bigoted or lazy.

And much as it repulses me, the same holds true for Republicans: they aren't all clones of one another.

*in name only, just like millions of people around the world. Before you start riding the patronizing pony down the road of 'poor oppressed Muslim can't leave Islam!'.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Religion and Culture are pretty intertwined. Is it possible to seperate religion and culture?

[Crixus]

Well, yes. Example: Pakistan's culture is very similar to/heavily influenced by India, for obvious reasons. This ranges from food to dress to wedding rituals and everything in between. And it's brilliant.

However, lately an effort has sprung up to make Pakistan more 'Muslim' rather than 'South Asian' . These cretins (I reserve the right to brand them as such) have abandoned traditional spellings in favour of Arabic (read Muslim, because KSA is the most pious place in the world). Hence, Ramzan becomes 'Ramadan', and a host of other such words.

Thankfully, most people find this ludicrous and don't comply.

It's interesting to note that extremist Muslims identify with KSA, rather than their own country of origin. Plays into the whole 'Islamic caliphate' notion ISIS is propagating,

I would also like to point out that such ideas have not been embraced here, apart from a few fringes. So there's hope?

[OnionAhaiReborn]

Religion and Culture are pretty intertwined. Is it possible to seperate religion and culture?

I sure hope so, or else I'm completely uncultured. :lol:

[Gears of the Beast]

Then what does it rely on? Do you understand there are many sects of Islam, and many different types of Muslims, ranging from those 'in name only'* like me, to those who follow all the rituals, to a VAST majority between? For example, my husband drinks but won't have pork. That's just a tiny example, with millions like it.

For you to link Erdogan with 'Muslims' as if they're one and the same, and for you not to understand something as basic as the concept that Muslims are not one huge monolithic entity, is either bigoted or lazy.

And much as it repulses me, the same holds true for Republicans: they aren't all clones of one another.

*in name only, just like millions of people around the world. Before you start riding the patronizing pony down the road of 'poor oppressed Muslim can't leave Islam!'.

I'm happy to discuss Islam in further detail in the religion thread. I have no idea what this thread is about, but evidently it's not about ripping on Islam.

Religion and Culture are pretty intertwined. Is it possible to seperate religion and culture?

I find it quite easy to distinguish between religion and culture.

[Crixus]

You have no idea what this is about, yet you jumped in with your Islam stuff? OK.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

OAR,

I sure hope so, or else I'm completely uncultured. :lol:

Do you eat Thanksgiving dinner? Give gifts and decorate for Christmas? While those may be secular holidays to you and your family their origins are religious. That's what I mean my "intertwined". Not that everything is religious but that religion is pretty pervasive in most cultures.

GotB,

And the same question to you. You may have "secularized" those holidays but you cannot deny their religious origins, or can you?

[Solmyr]

http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9376232/free-speech-is-so-last-century-todays-students-want-the-right-to-be-comfortable/

This reminds me of a thread we had a few years ago, where it boiled down to the conclusion that when political correctness conquers over freedom of speech, freedom of thought itself becomes in jeopardy. I also had an interesting debate about this with several friends of mine recently, wherein I challenged them to tell me if there is anything they would feel embarrassed or ashamed of discussing. I then changed the question to whether they'd feel the same way just pondering it in their own minds. The debate that unfolded was quite interesting.

[Gears of the Beast]

Do you eat Thanksgiving dinner? Give gifts and decorate for Christmas? While those may be secular holidays to you and your family their origins are religious. That's what I mean my "intertwined". Not that everything is religious but that religion is pretty pervasive in most cultures.

GotB,

And the same question to you. You may have "secularized" those holidays but you cannot deny their religious origins, or can you?

No, I don't eat thanksgiving dinner, nor do I give gifts and decorate things for Christmas. If I did, that wouldn't indicate some kind of inability to distinguish between culture and religion, the fact that they have become intertwined as you say within society doesn't mean it's not easy to distinguish them. I'm distinctly aware of which aspects of Christmas are religious - although I will admit I have no idea wtf "thanksgiving" is about, something to do with slaughtering indigenous people? I don't think Australians really celebrate that aspect of our history...

A while ago pretty much everyone was religious thus many things in modern society have religious origins, I'm not sure what the point is.

[MinDonner]

Yeah, "making people feel embarrassed about saying stupid shit" is the great oppression of our day. :rolleyes:

[OnionAhaiReborn]

OAR,

Do you eat Thanksgiving dinner? Give gifts and decorate for Christmas? While those may be secular holidays to you and your family their origins are religious. That's what I mean my "intertwined". Not that everything is religious but that religion is pretty pervasive in most cultures.

I didn't mean to actually wade into this discussion, just to make a little joke. But: I agree that religion permeates many aspects of most, probably all, cultures. I do disagree with the idea that it's impossible to separate religion and culture. On the one hand, it's clear that there are key aspects of culture (art, literature, music, intellectual tradition, day-to-day custom) which are not religious. On the other, I think we're also able intellectually to cleave apart influences on things with some religious origin. I can look at Thanksgiving and recognize its roots in America's agrarian tradition and even place it in the national trauma of the Civil War. I can look at Christmas as currently practiced and see the influence of modern capitalism and consumer culture. I can look at both and see the influence of the seasons- Thanksgiving falling after the autumn harvest and Christmas near the winter solstice.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

GotB,

When you've created a culture with all religious aspects excised from it, let me know. After all many of the most amazing architecturial works, works of art, works of music, have religious basis or overtones. Would the world be better off without them?

Chuck "The Last Supper", the Cathedral at Chartes, Machu Puchu, Mont St. Michel, Ankor Wat, the Dome of the Rock, Beethoven's "Ode to Joy". Is the world better off without these things?

OAR,

Winter Solstice festivials and Saturnalia were religious in nature too, weren't they?

[Lord Freypie]

A while ago pretty much everyone was religious thus many things in modern society have religious origins, I'm not sure what the point is.

A while ago all abrahamic religions (and some others) were used to justify sexism and patriarchy (as well as they were used earlier to justify some other things like monarchy, slavery, feudalism, torture of "heathens", etc...).

There's no "one is more sexist and patriarcal than others", there's "one is currently more used to justify sexism and patriarchy than others".

It's a question of political culture, not religion.

[OnionAhaiReborn]

OAR,

Winter Solstice festivials and Saturnalia were religious in nature too, weren't they?

As far as I know, yes. I certainly wouldn't try to say they aren't religiously influenced- even predominately religious in nature- just that I can also look and disentwine from their origins a non-religious influence.

[Gears of the Beast]

GotB,

When you've created a culture with all religious aspects excised from it, let me know. After all many of the most amazing architecturial works, works of art, works of music, have religious basis or overtones. Would the world be better off without them?

Chuck "The Last Supper", the Cathedral at Chartes, Machu Puchu, Mont St. Michel, Ankor Wat, the Dome of the Rock, Beethoven's "Ode to Joy". Is the world better off without these things?

I don't need to do that in order to be able to distinguish between religion and culture. And to answer your dumb question, no the world isn't better off without those things.

"A while ago all abrahamic religions (and some others) were used to justify sexism and patriarchy (as well as they were used earlier to justify some other things like monarchy, slavery, feudalism, torture of "heathens", etc...).

There's no "one is more sexist and patriarcal than others", there's "one is currently more used to justify sexism and patriarchy than others"."

I agree

(the quote thing broke)

[sologdin]

scot, i got no problem as a marxist atheist in admitting that my favorite piece of music is bach's B minor mass, that it's very unlikely it would exist without the religious motivation, and that the world is better for its having come into existence.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

GotB,

Their inspiration was religious. I thought religion only brings evil, hate, and death?

Sologdin,

I've never known you to damn (pardon the irony) all religious faith and, by extension, the art it inspires.

[GotB thank you for correcting my "there" spelling]

[Gears of the Beast]

There inspiration was religious. I thought religion only brings evil, hate, and death?

No, their inspiration was religious. You keep arguing with that strawman who thinks religion only brings evil, hate and death.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

GotB,

You damn religous faith as an evil, don't you?