Michael Brown shooting six

[TrueMetis]

Control of the situation was lost when Brown,

1) attacked Wilson in the SUV

2) failed to comply with Wilson's order to stop or get down

Wilson, already being struck in the face three, four times( I don't know the exact number) is expected to get back into a physical confrontation with a suspect? No, the initial assault was enough. The failure to comply was to much.

Twice, and yes. These are not serious wounds.

[karaddin]

Control of the situation was regained when Brown disengaged and retreated a substantial distance from the SUV. The photographs of the "injuries" are pretty clear they weren't major and look as likely to have come from hitting his head on the car in the altercation as from a punch. He absolutely can be expected to either get back into a physical confrontation (no longer in a surprise attack, but in circumstances he can very much control) or retreat from the confrontation and await backup rather than simply executing the person.

That's one thing I haven't seen in the coverage of this, why was he even on his own in the first place? Does this particular PD not do the operating in pairs thing which I thought was standard practice to avoid these circumstances? Or is that not as standard practice as I thought?

[Kalbear]

Control of the situation was lost when Brown,

1) attacked Wilson in the SUV

2) failed to comply with Wilson's order to stop or get down

Wilson, already being struck in the face three, four times( I don't know the exact number) is expected to get back into a physical confrontation with a suspect? No, the initial assault was enough. The failure to comply was to much.

too much? How do you weigh that? Wilson wasn't injured. He had pepper spray. He could also have run away and waited for backup. Or attacked brown in the open where his training should allow him advantages.

How do you do the calculus to say that shooting to kill is fine. Is getting punched 4 times enough?

[theprincethatwasntpromised]

Really, does it matter? Despite being trained in unarmed combat, having pepper spray and already shooting brown apparently it is a reasonable thing to shoot to kill an unarmed person.

I think I'm going to work on that angle. What evidence is there that the police officers life would be in danger at the hands of an unarmed assailant? Can you provide any evidence where a police officer losf their life against an unarmed person? Otherwise that isn't a credible threat.

And I agree brown acted unreasonably. That is also something police are supposedly trained to deal with. Noncompliance does not by itself justify lethal force. Though apparently legally it does.

Your forgetting brown went for the gun. I'm sure I could find an example of a suspect taking a cops gun and shooting him.

[Stubby]

Or is that not as standard practice as I thought?

Not in the USA as I understand it.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

Twice, and yes. These are not serious wounds.

He looks cold. Seriously. What a fucking farce.

[Wee baby Shamus]

Quoting from that

That's the part I'm talking about, a trained Officer should be able to use these techniques to subdue a teenager, even a large one. It happens in other countries and it apparently is part of the escalation of force here. Now you could argue that Wilson was genuinely spooked and skipped this step in fear, but that's him making a decision to skip a step and should be hashed out in a trial.

Yes an officer should be trained in those techniques and they are used dozens if not hundreds of times a day in America. You don't hear about it because it isn't newsworthy.

The only reason you even know about this case is the fact that the media and social media jumped the gun before the facts were known.

If the media knew that Brown had committed a robbery and knew that he choked the store owner before he died the story would have never gotten the attention it did.

[theprincethatwasntpromised]

Yeah, I'm white, middle class and for a long time believed I was and lived as a guy. The police were there to protect me for the most part, and I had no issues with them. That started to change with my experiences with US police in my year there, and I know as a trans woman that I can't be anywhere near as certain of that now and I'd be pretty terrified if I was being arrested for any reason.

If I was raised with the system stacked against me, the police blatantly not there to serve or protect me and few prospects I'd probably feel different about following the rules and trusting the police.

If you were raised with the system stacked against you, or if you were raised to believe the system is stacked against you?

[Kalbear]

Your forgetting brown went for the gun. I'm sure I could find an example of a suspect taking a cops gun and shooting him.

he did go for the gun, but that was in the car. When brown fled, there was at least 30 yards between them.

You say that in that situation Wilson should fear for his life. Why? Can you provide even one example where a policeman was knocked out and then killed or injured after that by an unarmed man? Just one?

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

That's one thing I haven't seen in the coverage of this, why was he even on his own in the first place? Does this particular PD not do the operating in pairs thing which I thought was standard practice to avoid these circumstances? Or is that not as standard practice as I thought?

Not anymore. Budget cuts and such. It's pretty rare these days (at least in California) to see two cops in the same vehicle.

[TrueMetis]

Your forgetting brown went for the gun. I'm sure I could find an example of a suspect taking a cops gun and shooting him.

Assuming this was true what the fuck was he gonna do from 20+ feet away? Use the fucking force?

[Kalbear]

Yes an officer should be trained in those techniques and they are used dozens if not hundreds of times a day in America. You don't hear about it because it isn't newsworthy.

The only reason you even know about this case is the fact that the media and social media jumped the gun before the facts were known.

not really; any unarmed person being gunned down by a police is newsworthy.

Also why didn't Wilson use those techniques? You kind of completely skipped over that.

[theprincethatwasntpromised]

he did go for the gun, but that was in the car. When brown fled, there was at least 30 yards between them.

You say that in that situation Wilson should fear for his life. Why? Can you provide even one example where a policeman was knocked out and then killed or injured after that by an unarmed man? Just one?

If he gets into another scuffle and brown gets the gun, he's dead.

[TrueMetis]

If he gets into another scuffle and brown gets the gun, he's dead.

So why aren't people shot more often then? Cops go hand to hand with suspects all the time, yet this doesn't seem to be a concern for them.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

If he gets into another scuffle and brown gets the gun, he's dead.

So the answer is no. You can't provide an example of an unarmed man killing a police officer.

[theprincethatwasntpromised]

Assuming this was true what the fuck was he gonna do from 20+ feet away? Use the fucking force?

He wasn't moving towards Wilson to shake his hand or apologize.

[Kalbear]

If he gets into another scuffle and brown gets the gun, he's dead.

shockingly police are trained to deal with that too. One simple way to deal with it is to lose the gun. Another is to stop pursuit. Mostly, Wilson is trained to subdue or stop people like brown. A charging guy isn't that hard to stop.

And it is not clear that brown went for his weapon. We still don't know that.

[karaddin]

If you were raised with the system stacked against you, or if you were raised to believe the system is stacked against you?

I'm pretty happy with my conclusion that for the majority of poor black people in America, the system is stacked against them. It's pretty stacked against poor whites as well for that matter, just not quite as badly. In my country? Absolutely stacked against the Aboriginals, the problem here is probably even worse, and they aren't even a large enough % of the population for it to get attention, so even fewer people acknowledge it as an issue.

ME - Thanks for the answer on the partner thing. I guess it's cheaper to get second hand guns and APCs from the army than hire and train decent Officers to walk a beat.

[theprincethatwasntpromised]

So the answer is no. You can't provide an example of an unarmed man killing a police officer.

The unarmed man in this situation tried to take his gun. It is safe to assume he would try again if close enough.

[Kalbear]

He wasn't moving towards Wilson to shake his hand or apologize.

so?

It doesn't matter even if brown wants to kill Wilson. He is still unarmed. He is still not a credible threat.