Rhaegar Targaryen hate?

[Raving Stark the Mad]

I agree he didn't anticipate the depth of the mess he'd create.

I think he was a political moron, though.

So was Ned Stark, though your comparison of him to Rhaegar depends on what you hold in higher esteem; Love or Honor. (One could argue, as I know someone probably could, that Love without Honor isn't really Love).

[Raving Stark the Mad]

Wrong group dude, I find Romeo and Juliet complete idiots who followed what lied between their pants before all else. You can see Romeo had no fucking idea what love was because he claimed to be in love with one chick moments before declaring love for Juliet.

Outstanding! I've found someone who ALWAYS DOES THE SMART THING! Congratulations, ser. You must be a hit at parties.

[Mal Malenkirk]

If you subscribe to the idea that Lyanna was party to the elopement/kidnapping/wildanimalsex, then she must share blame for the event and I don't see the scorn being heaped on her.

Well, Lyanna was 14-15. Also, if she received the same Stark female political education displayed by Sansa and Arya, it's quite possible she had no clue about how dangerous politically this elopement was. I don't know for sure about Rickard, but Ned obviously saw no value in politically educating his daughters (and it bit him in the ass) so it's possible his own father was the same.

Age and education makes it more likely Lyanna was politically ignorant whereas Rhaegar was more of a political moron, since he should have known better.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

All in all, I'm not saying that Rhaegar was an asshat. I just think he was a fool, politically speaking. I just can't see any way to justify leaving his mad father in charge to deal with Rhaegar's mess. Nor can I see a way to view the decision to marry Lyanna Stark without it being incredibly foolish or cruel/unfair to his first wife and kids.

This is basically my view as well.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

Well, Lyanna was 14-15. Also, if she received the same Stark female political education displayed by Sansa and Arya, it's quite possible she had no clue of how dangerous politically this elopement was.

Age and education makes it more likely she was politically ignorant whereas Rhaegar was more of a political moron, since he should have known better.

I don't know what "political education" is. Were they reading Plato's "Republic" to young lordlings? Locke or Hobbes?

I don't think you need to be "politically smart". You just need to not be a fool, period. I tend to believe that Lyanna must have known, if she had a choice, that running away with Rhaegar was not going to end well. It's possible love clouded her judgement. Could she, or did she, forseee events as they played out? No. But I don't think she was stupid either. She seems to me to be more Arya then Sansa, and forgive me for saying, but Sansa has always been the romantic fool.

[Wmarshal]

Outstanding! I've found someone who ALWAYS DOES THE SMART THING! Congratulations, ser. You must be a hit at parties.

Oh no good ser, I am the greatest idiot and coward you would ever meet, but you don't need to be Julius Ceasar to see horny idiots doing for what lies in there pants.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

Oh no good ser, I am the greatest idiot and coward you would ever meet, but you don't need to be Julius Ceasar to see horny idiots doing for what lies in there pants.

Bah. Who doesn't want to be a little bit of a fool? Would we have any fun otherwise?

I like to think of my penis as Gandalf. I even have him a little pointy hat. He sometimes tells me: “I am looking for someone to share in an adventure that I am arranging, and it's very difficult to find anyone.”

I stand forth proud and ready. "I am your man, ser! Point me in the right direction!". And off I go. Never were Trolls, Dragons, Orcs, and spiders as dangerous as some of the places I have been and the women I have known.

[Theon {HUNGRY WOLF} Stark]

Rhaegar was no Tywin but he was no Ned Stark either. Meaning Rhaegar wouldn't slaughter whole families, WHILE ON THE OTHER HAND NED WOULD NEVER RUN AWAY WITH A GIRL WHO IS BETHROTED TO ANOTHER LORD PARAMOUNT.

[Light a wight tonight]

Seduced and ran off with the 15 year old fiancee of the head of a major House, and him a married man and all? Not what I'd call admirable.

[James Arryn]

What's the series called, again?

[Mal Malenkirk]

I don't know what "political education" is. Were they reading Plato's "Republic" to young lordlings? Locke or Hobbes?

I don't think you need to be "politically smart". You just need to not be a fool, period. I tend to believe that Lyanna must have known, if she had a choice, that running away with Rhaegar was not going to end well. It's possible love clouded her judgement. Could she, or did she, forseee events as they played out? No. But I don't think she was stupid either. She seems to me to be more Arya then Sansa, and forgive me for saying, but Sansa has always been the romantic fool.

By political education, I mean explaining to your kid how power works in their environment, how it flows, what leeway you have and what are the breaking points, who are the main actors and what is known about them, and more importantly how your family stands in that web.

Ned explained fuck all to Sansa so left her very vulnerable when he brought her at court. If Lyanna had the same lack of education, her thinking might not have gone much farther than 'Father will be furious' and never delved into 'This will put my family at odds with a deranged king'.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

OT: I love when teenagers say stuff like, "our love is so romantic, like Romeo and Juliet"...

...come on, have you even read the book?

[Barty]

He was a dumb idiot. In what universe is running away with the daughter of a lord paramount(who is promised to another lord paramount) a good idea?

Cant he be a little more diplomatic? Cause if he cant then he was gonna be a piss poor king.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

By political education, I mean explaining to your kid how power works in their environment, how it flows, what leeway you have and what are the breaking points, who are the main actors and what is known about them, and more importantly how your family stands in that web.

Ned explained fuck all to Sansa so left her very vulnerable when he brought her at court. If Lyanna had the same lack of education, her thinking might not have gone much farther than 'Father will be furious' and never delved into 'This will put my family at odds with a deranged king'.

You don't need to understand how power works in their environment, or how it flows, and what leeway you need.

All you need to know is "don't stick your tongue in the light socket, it's bad". You don't need to know how electricity works to know that you don't french kiss outlets or run off with married crown princes. :bang:

[Theon {HUNGRY WOLF} Stark]

OT: I love when teenagers say stuff like, "our love is so romantic, like Romeo and Juliet"...

...come on, have you even read the book?

I haven't but I know enough nuggets of info to certify them {Romeo Juliet} as IDIOTS.

[Winterfell is Burning]

Wrong group dude, I find Romeo and Juliet complete idiots who followed what lied between their pants before all else. You can see Romeo had no fucking idea what love was because he claimed to be in love with one chick moments before declaring love for Juliet.

Yeah, Romeo and Juliet are supposed to be idiots, not the greatest love story of all time.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

It's possible Rhaegar was a bit of a brat. It's also possible he was in luvvvvvvv. It's possible that we're just underestimating 15 year old Lyanna Stark's hotness. I'm inclined to withold final judgement until more information is revealed, but at this point my gut tells me that Rhaegar was in love. 90% of the characters in the story have done stupid things for love. It's one of the underlying themes. I won't excuse but I won't villify. There are worse things a man can do then fall in love, or even lust, with a girl.

Being *in love*, if it was love at all and not his very own Targ Madness, would justify a, what 13 yo with no responsibilities? Not a married man father of two, one of whom was the in his mid 20s who bears the responsibility of the whole world in his soldiers.

In the absence of the full story, I'll hold off judging Rhaegar for what seems like incredibly foolish behaviour.

But, even on the evidence we have, comparing him to Joffrey is silly. Joffrey enjoyed tormenting people and animals; he shot people who were begging for bread, he sexually abused Sansa, he forced men to fight to the death, he provoked a food riot, he may have sexually abused Tommen.

Rhaegar's being (at worst) a fool is not comparable.

I said that it might be an exaggeration but I do believe that there are some similarities between the two of them.

snip

Agree with everythin. Ok almost everything.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

Being *in love*, if it was love at all and not his very own Targ Madness, would justify a, what 13 yo with no responsibilities? Not a married man father of two, one of whom was the in his mid 20s who bears the responsibility of the whole world in his soldiers.

I'm not trying to justify his actions. I'm pointing out that his motive was far from heinous, depending on your view of love. I'd sooner take Rhaegar or Ned who do stupid things with good motives, then Littlefinger or Tywin, who do smart things with less then good motives.

[Anath]

It's possible Rhaegar was a bit of a brat. It's also possible he was in luvvvvvvv. It's possible that we're just underestimating 15 year old Lyanna Stark's hotness. I'm inclined to withold final judgement until more information is revealed, but at this point my gut tells me that Rhaegar was in love. 90% of the characters in the story have done stupid things for love. It's one of the underlying themes. I won't excuse but I won't villify. There are worse things a man can do then fall in love, or even lust, with a girl.

There is no worse thing than riling up an insane, all powerful relative and leave the move that was meant to overthrow him half-finished because you just had to run away, 'cause love and lust..;. Mal Malenkirk is spot on. And his analogy with leaving the mad relative that you have painstakingly riled up to babysit your kids is true in quite a literal way. Rhaegar left his family in Aerys' power twice fully knowing that Aerys disliked his grandchildren's Dornish blood and Elia's people were into Rhaegar's confidence. He literally left them to face the consequences of his running away. That's the first time he left them. The second time, Aerys had already revealed his almost full potential for insanity and Rhaegar had no problems leaving his kids with him now either.

Love can only excuse so much. In Rhaegar's circumstances, acting on his feelings because he was in love was basically equal to child endangerment.

Oh, and Romeo and Juliet? Such drama queens, sighs a teen I know who lives for being a drama queen. Even she was fed up with their dramas and thought they were a pair of idiots.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

Love can only excuse so much. In Rhaegar's circumstances, acting on his feelings because he was in love was basically equal to child endangerment.

For some reason Rhaegar did not consider his father to be a threat to his children. At no point have I seen evidence that Aerys, in all his nuttiness, had threatened Rhaegar or Elia's children. Up to the point until Aerys went totally wacko and wanted to burn KL down, he wasn't a threat to Rhaegar's children.

Again, I'm not trying to justify or excuse. I'm only pointing out the role that motive plays in determining the value of an action. Despite all the rhetoric about "Rhaegar-lovers", the obsession seems to be among the "Rhaegar-haters" as far as I can see. I'm neither. Apparently it's one of those things where if I'm not "with them" I'm "against them".