R+L =J v. 115

[Ygrain]

What i'm saying is you guys will explain and believe to ya blue in the face all the detail talking about R+L=(J) Despite J looking nothing like ®. When I say use that same method with YG, you don't. You dismiss his story as false outright and explain what he is with absolutely no proof, That is my overall confusion.

Jon looks nothing like Rhaegar but has taken after Lyanna. He has his mother's looks in everything, not just the colouring - not just brown hair and grey eyes but also the long solemn face which seems to be a Stark family likeness. YG has the right colouring but there is no mention of him having Rhaegar's face.

[finger]

Aurane Waters looks like Rhaegar.. Yet Aurane isn't a Targaryen :)

Aegon's looks say nothing about him being an imposter, but they also say nothing about him being Rhaegar's son... Aegon had the right looks, but there are more out there with those looks.

Rhaegar was Valyrian looking, as are multiple people, both in Westeros (like the Velaryons), and in Essos (Lys, for example...).

I agree with the rest, but I'd note that GRRM sows the doubt.

Is not AW of an age with Viserys? Then, Cersei sees in him a younger Rhaegar. The Arbor's wine might have something to do, but... There's a mystery about AW on purpose.

I'm not telling that he's Viserys, because it's not straightforward, but there are hints to suspect he might be. I just doubt.

[finger]

Jon looks nothing like Rhaegar but has taken after Lyanna. He has his mother's looks in everything, not just the colouring - not just brown hair and grey eyes but also the long solemn face which seems to be a Stark family likeness. YG has the right colouring but there is no mention of him having Rhaegar's face.

Otoh, Varys had been hired by Aerys, and then he kept his place in Robert's council.

It doesn't abide well with snatching Aegon.

[addicted to snow]

I think the validity of R+L marriage (or its existence) will not matter in the end. The series is going that way. Any position Jon gained so far was because of his valor and skills (and some luck), not because of his birth.

Or Trickery

[Mithras]

Or Trickery

It is not Jon's fault that the NW was divided between three candidates who had no common ground to reach an understanding. Considering the Wot5K and the upcoming Dance of Dragons, same thing will happen. Jon's rivals will slay each other in meaningless civil wars while Jon stays clean of this mess and tries to save the Realm. After the Realm is saved, there will be new contenders who are not able to come to the common ground again. Jon will again emerge as the compromise candidate.

[Meneldilme]

/delurk

What i'm saying is you guys will explain and believe to ya blue in the face all the detail talking about R+L=(J) Despite J looking nothing like ®. When I say use that same method with YG, you don't. You dismiss his story as false outright and explain what he is with absolutely no proof, That is my overall confusion.

For YG to be Aegon he must have silver hair and purple eyes as Aegon was known to have those features. So the fact that YG does have those features tells us exactly nothing about whether or not he is the real deal.

=> YG's appearance does not preclude him from being Rhaegar's son (specifically Aegon).

The presence of Targaryens that do not have the Valyrian colouring, especially Rhaenys, shows that one does not have to have Valyrian colouring to be a Targaryen.

=> Jon's appearance does not preclude him from being Rhaegar's son.

Same conclusion. The reasons people don't accept YG as Aegon and do accept Jon as Rhaegar's son have nothing to do with their appearance.

/relurk

[Alia of the knife]

I agree with the rest, but I'd note that GRRM sows the doubt.

Is not AW of an age with Viserys? Then, Cersei sees in him a younger Rhaegar. The Arbor's wine might have something to do, but... There's a mystery about AW on purpose.

I'm not telling that he's Viserys, because it's not straightforward, but there are hints to suspect he might be. I just doubt.

Then who was the other "Viserys?" :shocked:

We know AW is ten years Cerseis junior.

[Alia of the knife]

The full legend of Bael the Bard, (which did not origninate from anything positive, but with an insult when Lord Stark called him a coward).

"The lord of the North at this time, Lord Brandon Stark, once called Bael a coward. To take revenge of this affront and prove his courage, Bael climbed the Wall, took the kingsroad and entered Winterfell under the guise of a singer named Sygerrik of Skagos, which means "deceiver" in the old language of Skagos. There, he sang until midnight for the lord.

Impressed by his skills as a singer, Lord Stark asked him what he wanted as a reward, and Bael only asked for the most beautiful flower blooming in Winterfell's gardens. As the blue winter roses were just blooming, Brandon Stark accepted to offer him one. But the following morning, the single, virgin daughter of the lord had disappeared, and in her bed was the blue winter rose.

Lord Brandon sent the members of the Night's Watch looking for them beyond the Wall, but they never found neither Bael nor the girl. The Stark line was on the verge of extinction, when one day the girl was back in her room, holding in her hand an infant: they had actually never left Winterfell, staying hidden in the crypts. Bael's bastard with the daughter of the Lord Stark became the new Lord Stark.

When thirty years later Bael was King-Beyond-the-Wall and led the wildlings' army south, he had to fight his own son at the Frozen Ford. There, incapable of killing his own blood, he let himself be killed by Lord Stark. His son brought back Bael's head to Winterfell, and his mother who had loved the bard, seeing the trophy, killed herself from the top of a tower. The son was eventually slain by the Boltens."

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I agree with the rest, but I'd note that GRRM sows the doubt.

Is not AW of an age with Viserys? Then, Cersei sees in him a younger Rhaegar. The Arbor's wine might have something to do, but... There's a mystery about AW on purpose.

I'm not telling that he's Viserys, because it's not straightforward, but there are hints to suspect he might be. I just doubt.

Aurane was born in 277 or 278 AC (he was 22 years old in 300 AC). Viserys was born in 276 AC, and a known face by the time he fled Dragonstone.

No he doesn't, Cercei say he remind her of Rhaegar

Look like and Remind kinda different.

He looks enough like Rhaegar to remind Cersei of Rhaegar..

But on the topic of looks and bastards, consider the following. During A Game of Thrones, when Ned has decided to go to KL, he is very reluctant to take Jon to KL.. In fact, he doesn't want to do so, and had planned to leave Jon at Winterfell.. He had decided this within minutes of deciding he would go south.

Catelyn refuses to keep Jon around, and the matter of taking Jon to KL arises.. What is the reason Ned gives to not do that?

There will be no place for him at court. A boy with a bastard’s name... you know what they will say of him. He will be shunned.

Really? Bastards at court are shunned? That is the reason that Ned gives...

Brynden Rivers would disagree.. All the bastard-born knights who have served in the KG will disagree.. Aurane Waters will disagree.. Robert Baratheon will even disagree, as he had wanted to take his baseborn bastard daughter to KL.. to keep around his own son, the heir to the throne, after all..

So no, bastards at court won't be shunned. They might have a less easier time at court, but if the King accepts you at court, the others will do to.

So why would Ned not want to bring Jon to court? People compare his looks to Ned and Arya.. Logical, as they've seen Jon next to them, and can easily see the comparison.. But the same occurs with Robb and Catelyn.. he looks like a Tully, until that one moment where Catelyn notes that she could see something of Ned in his face (IIRC, she even notes that it's the first time?)..

At Winterfell, there won't be anyone who would suspect that Jon wasn't Neds, and who would try to find anything other than Ned in Jons face... At court, there will be people who will be more sceptic.. People who have never met Jon, who will look at him a first time with more interest.. People who knew Rhaegar, and who knew him well... Bringing Jon to court would mean that Varys and Pycelle, and perhaps others too familiar with Rhaegar's face, would see the boy, and the chances that they would be able to see not only Stark features (which are obviously most obvious), but also perhaps something that could remind them of Rhaegar, would be too big to take, wouldn't it?

[sj4iy]

What i'm saying is you guys will explain and believe to ya blue in the face all the detail talking about R+L=(J) Despite J looking nothing like ®. When I say use that same method with YG, you don't. You dismiss his story as false outright and explain what he is with absolutely no proof, That is my overall confusion.

I haven't dismissed Aegon's claim with 'absolutely no proof'.

Tyrion doubts his story. That's quite a lot of proof right there.

And I doubt it, too, because it doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Elia is supposedly either:

A. Agreeing to saving ONE of her children and not the other

or

B. Not recognizing her own son

Both ring of bullshit to me. I don't care what a person looks like, as long as their origin story makes sense. Aegon's doesn't.

[markg171]

No, but there's no reason why Rhaegar couldn't have got one made easily enough if he'd wanted to. If he didn't and it was the crown provided, then we have to wonder why it just happened to be a crown of blue winter roses.

Whether you accept the idea of BWRs being personally relevant to Lyanna prior to Harrenhal or not, there's no question that BWRs are grown at Winterfell and that there was a pre-existing association between them and daughters of Winterfell. If Rhaegar didn't chose the flower specifically for Lyanna, it would be a peculiar coincidence.

I don't think Rhaegar, or anybody in the Seven Kingdoms, could just easily get enough blue roses to form a crown whenever they wanted.

The Stark of Winterfell in Bael's story is so impressed with Bael's singing that he offers him any reward of his choosing. When Bael asks for a flower, he sends him a blue rose, which is described as being the most precious and rare flower of all. They're extremely rare, and therefore extremely costly. No one would just be able to buy enough to form a crown on the off chance that they might manage to win a jousting tourney against the greatest knights and lords of the realm.

Also, as far as we know, these roses only grow in Winterfell. Rhaegar would therefore have to go to Winterfell to get some, and he's never mentioned having ever been further north than the Ruby Ford where he died, which is only slightly north of Harrenhal. Rhaegar never ventured north so he never would have been able to get blue winter roses. You would think if he had ever been to Winterfell, someone would have also mentioned it. The crown prince visiting Winterfell would have been a huge deal.

As to why Lord Whent would have provided a crown of blue winter roses, the answer is simple: Lord Whent's tourney was the greatest of all, with the largest prizes. It stands to reason that he would have also spared no expense on the crown of love and beauty then, and as already noted, blue winter roses are the rarest flowers in Westoros. He would have therefore used them if he wanted to make a crown as extravagant as the rest of his tourney was.

[markg171]

Think so?

Nooooooooo! My bear so fair knows he's number one in my heart. :)

He got stabbed dozens of times, and the only people with him were the ones who stabbed him so he's not getting sent to a maester. I don't even think there are maesters even present seeing as Aemon's dead. So how exactly is he supposed to be alive?

And by alive I mean alive alive. Not living on in Ghost as wargs can do when their human body does. If he's Ghost he's no longer Jon Snow. Varamyr acknowledges this. That's also assuming Jon knows how to willingly warg Ghost. As far as I know, he's never shown that ability and has simply been able to see through his eyes while he dreams. He's never been able to control him or willingly go into his body so I highly doubt he's going to somehow gain this ability while he's dying. And again, even if he does manage to live on through Ghost, he's no longer Jon Snow.

[GrammarYatzy]

He got stabbed dozens of times, and the only people with him were the ones who stabbed him so he's not getting sent to a maester. I don't even think there are maesters even present seeing as Aemon's dead. So how exactly is he supposed to be alive?

And by alive I mean alive alive. Not living on in Ghost as wargs can do when their human body does. If he's Ghost he's no longer Jon Snow. Varamyr acknowledges this. That's also assuming Jon knows how to willingly warg Ghost. As far as I know, he's never shown that ability and has simply been able to see through his eyes while he dreams. He's never been able to control him or willingly go into his body so I highly doubt he's going to somehow gain this ability while he's dying. And again, even if he does manage to live on through Ghost, he's no longer Jon Snow.

You don't seem him as just getting rez'd by Melisandre?

[markg171]

And if it had been Arthur or Whent....do we really think that HIGHTOWER would fight beside them after abandoning their vows? Or would he have killed them as oathbreakers. And post World Book...do we really think Rhaegar would just be chillin' at the TOJ as Arthur or Whent engaged in an affair with Lyanna? No.

LOL. I'm a huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge Dany fan, but I spend probably 85% of my time on this board here in RLJ defending Jon = TPTWP/Balance Child. I think Dany has a crucial role to play in all this and is one of the heroes of the story but I acknowledge that Jon is the guy who will do "the thing" that puts the world right.

As to the Kingsguard members being at the Tower of Joy, when Eddard and his company arrive, they're outside the Tower of Joy. If you're trying to protect something inside, the easiest way to do so from an attacking force would have been to be in the tower as well. Eddard had 6 men with him. The Kingsguard could have easily defeated them from the within the safety of the Tower, if their goal was to protect Lyanna. Jaime remarks while having his army camp fortified that it was something even Dayne would have approved of: that it was orderly and strong and well protected. Dayne therefore doesn't sound like the kind of man who would then abandon the defensive advantage that the Tower's walls granted them and instead wait outside to meet Eddard and his group. I can't imagine Gerold doing this either.

If however their goal was to guard Lyanna as a prisoner, and therefore make sure that she does not escape, then being outside the tower makes more sense than being within it. She can't get out if you're guarding the only entrance or exit. This would then explain why they were outside the Tower instead of hidden within the walls. Stannis does the same thing with Val. He confines her to a tower and posts guards outside the tower, not within.

Through Eddard's remarks we get the sense that it's been a long time since the war was over, yet no one had come to the Tower. So there's no possible way that the KG could have known to wait outside for Eddard and his group or whoever would show up (or if anybody ever would). They must already have been outside and the only reason to do so instead of being within the safety of the walls is if you're trying to stop whoever's inside from leaving.

[markg171]

You know since I have been on this forum, I have been doing probably the most advocating that Young Griff is truly Aegon, son of Rhaegar without fail.

That is why I am super duper confused as to how ppl honest to god in this topic say in breath that Jon Snow is the Son of Rhaegar despite looking absolutely nothing like the man using the explanation that Targs in the past didn't have the traditional features of mainstream, but in the same breath say that Aegon is not the Son of Rhaegar Despite looking every bit like the man using quotes taking out of context.

Somebody please help me understand this double whammy problem.

While completely ignoring the fact that during one of Ned's POVs while thinking about Jon, Ned says that Jon looks exactly like how he did when he was longer. I've noticed that people completely ignore this, but are always quick to point to the fact that it's said that Arya looks like Lyanna and Jon is the only one who looks like her as they both have the Stark features of long faces, while all the other children have Tully features, so therefore that's evidence that Jon is Lyanna's son.

Jon looks identical to Ned, but only bears a familial resemblance to Lyanna, yet everyone seems to ignore this.

[sj4iy]

He got stabbed dozens of times, and the only people with him were the ones who stabbed him so he's not getting sent to a maester. I don't even think there are maesters even present seeing as Aemon's dead. So how exactly is he supposed to be alive?

You're hilarious. And wrong. Very, very wrong.

Jon was stabbed between 1-3 times that we know of. The text is very ambiguous about it, and the only dagger that we KNOW went in was Marsh's. Whittlestick's dagger missed. The third assailant 'took him in the back', whatever that means. It could mean he was stabbed...it could mean that it was a glancing blow. Or it could mean something else. We don't even know about the 4th dagger because Jon didn't even feel it.

So your claim of "dozens and dozens" of stab wounds if full of it. 1-3 times. Very survivable, depending on the location and the severity...which we don't know about yet.

Also, he wasn't "ONLY" surrounded by foes. There was a large crowd attracted by the screams of Ser Patrek, made up of NW, Queen's Men and Wildlings. As far as we know, he was only attacked by a small group of 4 men...while being surrounded by people who supported him. When Jon was stabbed, someone screamed, so it's very, very likely that his attack was witnessed and stopped at some point soon (or immediately) after he collapsed. So your claim of him being surrounded ONLY by attackers is also BS.

And by alive I mean alive alive. Not living on in Ghost as wargs can do when their human body does. If he's Ghost he's no longer Jon Snow. Varamyr acknowledges this. That's also assuming Jon knows how to willingly warg Ghost. As far as I know, he's never shown that ability and has simply been able to see through his eyes while he dreams. He's never been able to control him or willingly go into his body so I highly doubt he's going to somehow gain this ability while he's dying. And again, even if he does manage to live on through Ghost, he's no longer Jon Snow.

Jon says "Ghost". He warged him, whether he meant to or not. It seems to be second nature to all of the Starks. Bran warged Summer without realizing it. Arya warged Nymeria (and the cat) without realizing it. Jon warged Ghost without realizing it.

Your position is very, very flawed. You might want to read the text again because you have almost all of the facts wrong.

[markg171]

Lyanna liked flowers. Lyanna loved the smell of winter roses.

We can assume that this was characteristic of Lyanna pre-HH, or that it was a new characteristic she developed post-HH. It is more reasonable to assume that the way Ned remembered Lyanna would be more coloured by the years he lived with her prior to HH than the brief time he spent with her after HH.

I am making an assumption -- the more reasonable of the two possible assumptions. The only people passing any assumption off as fact are those denying the possibility of either assumption.

The tale of Bael, intended to be mythical or not, is part of the storytelling of ASOIAF. It serves a purpose in telling GRRMs story. In it there is a specific equivalence between a daughter of Winterfell and blue winter roses.

It doesn't matter if there's an in-world connection between Stark girls and blue winter roses or not; there's certainly one in GRRM's storytelling.

Like I said, "He placed a crown in her lap, isn't that enough?" I'm not sure how you got from that to assuming I didn't think placing a crown in her lap was meaningful.

Phallic imagery, let's see -- Rhaegar's lance? Placing a crown in her lap would make a lot of sense if he had the crown on the tip of his lance and lowered it into her lap. If the blue winter roses are symbolic of Jon, does that mean Rheagar was symbolically penetrating Jon? Obviously not. So either the flowers represent Jon and we can overlook that particular symbolic interpretation, or they represent Lyanna and we can overlook the symbolic reading you give as a counter example, of Rhaegar putting Lyanna in Lyanna's lap. I don't see why you have no difficulty overlooking one but have a problem with overlooking the other.

How is it not a simple question? As far as I know, there are no mentions of blue winter roses unconnected to Winterfell. I might be wrong. Thus the question.

Either the crown was made specifically for Lyanna because she's the rose of Winterfell, or that's coincidental and the crown would have been blue winter roses whoever was picked as QoLaB. If there isn't any mention of blue winter roses anywhere in the books that isn't associated with Winterfell then the parsimonious assumption is the former.

I'm of the firm belief that the crown was going to be of winter roses for whoever won it. I've been arguing that in this thread that Lord Whent specifically made the crown out of blue roses as its noted that they're the most precious and rare flower in Westoros. Harrenhal's tourney was a display of extravagance and it stands to reason that he didn't spare any expense on the crown either, if he's the one who provided it.

Some have been arguing that Rhaegar made the crown for her and presented blue roses as a specific meaning, but I've found a passage that confirms Whent provided the crown and not Rhaegar:

Robert had been jesting with Jon and old Lord Hunter as the prince circled the field after unhorsing Ser Barristan in the final tilt to claim the champion's crown. Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish Princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty's laurel in Lyanna's lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.

Rhaegar won the crown and after getting it he gives it to Lyanna. The crown was a tourney prize and therefore it was Lord Whent who had it fashioned. Had Barristan won he would have presented Ashara with a crown of winter roses.

[markg171]

You don't seem him as just getting rez'd by Melisandre?

I wouldn't necessarily call that Jon then either. Beric says that every time he was revived he forgets part of himself and no longer even knows who he is. He only knows what people have told him about himself. Catelyn also vastly changes when she's brought back.

Neither who are revived are anything like who they were so if Jon is revived then I don't think you can really say he's still Jon Snow. Plus as far as I'm aware, Melisandre has never revived anybody. She's admitted that half of her "powers" are really just illusions and deceptions so she might not be able to.

[Alia of the knife]

Whent commissioned the rare roses to emphasize his fabulousness, and it was fate that Lyanna got them, the flower most associated with the Starks, but they were not made for her.

[Ellfoy]

What's happening?! There is at least three anti R+L=J topic on first page !