A+J=T v. 2

[UnmaskedLurker]

It lets Tyrion off the hook for murdering his father, and then he can completely move on with no repercussions. I don't think Tyrion gives a damn who his father is, so long as it isn't Tywin. Tyrion's identity crisis is knowing that he is much too similar to his father, and with that gone, Tyrion can go on, say "fuck evil stepdad", and not answer for any of it. Seriously, it just turns Tywin into Lady Tremaine, Cersei into an evil step-sister, and nothing more. It only takes away from everything we know about both characters. Both Tywin and Tyrion if they knew of it when they were alive would be relieved to hear of it, and that can't happen.

The theory is bullshit of the highest order and I'd say it singlehandedly ruins the series if it is true. At least Cersei and Jaime being Aerys children clarifies some things (and Jaime unlike Tyrion would be greatly affected from a personal standpoint if he were Aerys son), but Tyrion being Aerys child merely spits in the face of the whole tale. As Genna said "Tyrion is Tywin's son". Both Tyrion and Tywin knew it, and that made them hate the other all the more for it.

Well I don't see it this way, and I suspect GRRM does not see it this way. Tyrion is NOT let off the hook for killing Tywin just because after the fact it turns out Tywin was not Tyrion's biological father. Maybe in Westeros Tyrion is no longer a kill slayer (although Tywin is still a cousin as Joanna and Tywin were first cousins), but Tyrion is still a cold-blooded murderer. And under modern sensibilities (which is what should count for purposes of evaluating the literary significance of the revelation), Tyrion has identical culpability for killing the man he believed to be his father. In no sense is Tyrion absolved because in fact, Aerys is the bio-dad.

Tywin is not alive--so he never got to find out the truth--but I am not sure he would be relieved at all -- it would mean he was raising someone else's child as his own and that his wife either was raped or cheated on him (neither great alternatives). As for Tyrion, I am not sure being the bastard son of the Mad King (losing his claim to CR) is really an improvement.

This revelation might ruin the series for you and some others, but it certainly would not ruin it for me or, I believe, for the vast majority of readers who just want to follow the story wherever GRRM takes it and just want an interesting story -- most people are not caught up in analyzing the subtext of the relationship between two fictional characters in a fantasy series.

But what I really want to ask you is what you would have preferred GRRM to do. Assume, for purposes of this mental exercise, that GRRM has a few goals he wants to achieve regarding Tryion. Assume that he wants Tyrion to be one of the three heads of the dragon (i.e., one of the three saviors of the world) -- and assume that this means that Tyrion must be a hidden Targ (based on the "rules" of the prophesy that GRRM has set up). Maybe you don't like these assumptions, but for purposes here, just accept them and try to go with my line of questioning. So eventually, GRRM needs to reveal that Aerys is the biological father of Tyrion as a big twist to surprise the readers and explain how Tyrion can be a head of the dragon. With that as given background, how do you handle the relationship between Tywin and Tyrion? How do you write the story that is equally interesting to the readers (you must admit that the interchange between the two was entertaining) but avoids a situation where the story would become "ruined" by your definition? I am not being sarcastic -- I really want to know what you have GRRM do differently given these parameters.

[Weirdo]

It lets Tyrion off the hook for murdering his father, and then he can completely move on with no repercussions. I don't think Tyrion gives a damn who his father is, so long as it isn't Tywin. Tyrion's identity crisis is knowing that he is much too similar to his father, and with that gone, Tyrion can go on, say "fuck evil stepdad", and not answer for any of it. Seriously, it just turns Tywin into Lady Tremaine, Cersei into an evil step-sister, and nothing more. It only takes away from everything we know about both characters. Both Tywin and Tyrion if they knew of it when they were alive would be relieved to hear of it, and that can't happen.

The theory is bullshit of the highest order and I'd say it singlehandedly ruins the series if it is true. At least Cersei and Jaime being Aerys children clarifies some things (and Jaime unlike Tyrion would be greatly affected from a personal standpoint if he were Aerys son), but Tyrion being Aerys child merely spits in the face of the whole tale. As Genna said "Tyrion is Tywin's son". Both Tyrion and Tywin knew it, and that made them hate the other all the more for it.

You're making GRRM out to be quite a moralist. He's not, IMHO. This isn't Narnia, and Tyrion doesn't have to be punished in contrapasso for his sins.

And really, as OP points out above, being Aerys's son doesn't lift the weight of the world off his shoulders and make him into some golden child. Tywin was hated by many, but respected and feared by most. He was a formidable man, and a lot of the respect Tyrion got all of his life came from that association. A connection to Aerys, a violent, paranoid and STUPID narcissist, won't get him anywhere with anyone, except Dany and the tightest Targaryen loyalists. It taints him, and binds him to the Targ crusade.

edit: said Tyrion when I meant Tywin. Again.

[Lord_Tyrell]

Two crossbow bolts had already ruined that relationship!

Seriously, though, why cry for their relationship? They hated each other. Will Tyrion hate Tywin any less, or himself any less, as a bastard of Aerys? Tywin is dead, but Tyrion probably has two more books with us, and this opens up his story a great deal. Pulling the rug out from under a character creates story. It doesn't ruin anything.

As for being insulting, I have no idea what you mean by that?

But it lets Tyrion off of those two crossbow bolts (which note was only one in the books).

And I cry for their relationship because both characters are completely defined by their relationship. It's like asking if Cinderella's step mother suddenly becomes her actual mother, but in the loving way, if their relationship changes. Sorry, but it completely changes the context of the entire story. It is bullshit. And if you can't see why it's entirely insulting, then you don't understand basic story structure.

Seriously, what do you think will be Tyrion's mindset when he finds out Tywin isn't his father? "Go fuck yourself, and thank god I was never related to you! You deserved what I did to you!" Do you really think that is a good character arc for Tyrion killing the person who most defined their life? He should be questioning himself til the end, as Tywin did. It is simply stupid and insulting to say otherwise.

[Lord_Tyrell]

You're making GRRM out to be quite a moralist. He's not, IMHO. This isn't Narnia, and Tyrion doesn't have to be punished in contrapasso for his sins.

And really, as OP points out above, being Aerys's son doesn't lift the weight of the world off his shoulders and make him into some golden child. Tywin was hated by many, but respected and feared by most. He was a formidable man, and a lot of the respect Tyrion got all of his life came from that association. A connection to Aerys, a violent, paranoid and STUPID narcissist, won't get him anywhere with anyone, except Dany and the tightest Targaryen loyalists. It taints him, and binds him to the Targ crusade.

edit: said Tyrion when I meant Tywin. Again.

It completely lifts the weight off of Tyrion's shoulders. Do you really think if Tyrion knows Tywin wasn't his father that it would greatly change his opinion on killing his father? Sorry, but it is bullshit and you are entirely wrong if you think it's a good thing. This isn't up for debate.

[Lord_Tyrell]

Well I don't see it this way, and I suspect GRRM does not see it this way. Tyrion is NOT let off the hook for killing Tywin just because after the fact it turns out Tywin was not Tyrion's biological father. Maybe in Westeros Tyrion is no longer a kill slayer (although Tywin is still a cousin as Joanna and Tywin were first cousins), but Tyrion is still a cold-blooded murderer. And under modern sensibilities (which is what should count for purposes of evaluating the literary significance of the revelation), Tyrion has identical culpability for killing the man he believed to be his father. In no sense is Tyrion absolved because in fact, Aerys is the bio-dad.

Tywin is not alive--so he never got to find out the truth--but I am not sure he would be relieved at all -- it would mean he was raising someone else's child as his own and that his wife either was raped or cheated on him (neither great alternatives). As for Tyrion, I am not sure being the bastard son of the Mad King (losing his claim to CR) is really an improvement.

This revelation might ruin the series for you and some others, but it certainly would not ruin it for me or, I believe, for the vast majority of readers who just want to follow the story wherever GRRM takes it and just want an interesting story -- most people are not caught up in analyzing the subtext of the relationship between two fictional characters in a fantasy series.

But what I really want to ask you is what you would have preferred GRRM to do. Assume, for purposes of this mental exercise, that GRRM has a few goals he wants to achieve regarding Tryion. Assume that he wants Tyrion to be one of the three heads of the dragon (i.e., one of the three saviors of the world) -- and assume that this means that Tyrion must be a hidden Targ (based on the "rules" of the prophesy that GRRM has set up). Maybe you don't like these assumptions, but for purposes here, just accept them and try to go with my line of questioning. So eventually, GRRM needs to reveal that Aerys is the biological father of Tyrion as a big twist to surprise the readers and explain how Tyrion can be a head of the dragon. With that as given background, how do you handle the relationship between Tywin and Tyrion? How do you write the story that is equally interesting to the readers (you must admit that the interchange between the two was entertaining) but avoids a situation where the story would become "ruined" by your definition? I am not being sarcastic -- I really want to know what you have GRRM do differently given these parameters.

I don't give a shit about the legality of Tyrion killing Tywin. Tyrion killing his own father is something he needs to live with, and its something you're not granting him. If Tywin is not Tyrion's father, then he's really completely off his own moral hook. He just killed a bad man, and that's all Tyrion will rationalize it. Tyrion thinks/knows now that he's completely defined by his father, and he is right. Put Tywin in Tyrion's situation or Tyrion in Tywin's situation, and they each turn out like the other. Tyrion IS Tywin's son. Neither of them want this to be the case, but it is so.

And you're wrong. Tywin would certainly be relieved Tyrion isn't his, even for the sole purpose of strangling him.

And I say you're wrong for not ruining it for the vast majority of readers. Something tells me while you and your supporters would like this simply stupid and insulting plot twist, most people would know it's the wrong move and destroys Tyrion's and Tywin's characters. Seriously, what the fuck does this gain? Tyrion riding a dragon? How is it confirmed you MUST be a Targaryen to ride dragons? Tyrion riding a dragon and not having Targaryen blood ruins nothing for the story. Tyrion not being Tywin's son ruins just about everything for Tyrion's story and makes it a complete waste of time.

And as for your hypothetical scenario, just make Tyrion one of the three heads anyway without the Targaryen blood. I don't give a fuck if he's a Targaryen, but I do care if Tywin is his father. Both characters are defined by this relationship, and you'd have to be a fool to not see this relationship. If I have to choose between Tyrion's and Tywin's relationship and Tyrion riding a dragon, it's an incredibly easy choice for me: Tyrion and Tywin being related. Sorry, but Tyrion riding a dragon is merely a perk. Tyrion being related to Tywin completely defines his character, while Tyrion riding a dragon is merely a wish of you and the character. You are foolish to state otherwise.

Granted, I think Tyrion will ride a dragon and be the son of Tywin, but if I had to choose for one or the other to happen, anyone who knows anything about the character and plot progression will choose him being Tywin's son.

[Weirdo]

But it lets Tyrion off of those two crossbow bolts (which note was only one in the books).

And I cry for their relationship because both characters are completely defined by their relationship. It's like asking if Cinderella's step mother suddenly becomes her actual mother, but in the loving way, if their relationship changes. Sorry, but it completely changes the context of the entire story. It is bullshit. And if you can't see why it's entirely insulting, then you don't understand basic story structure.

Seriously, what do you think will be Tyrion's mindset when he finds out Tywin isn't his father? "Go fuck yourself, and thank god I was never related to you! You deserved what I did to you!" Do you really think that is a good character arc for Tyrion killing the person who most defined their life? He should be questioning himself til the end, as Tywin did. It is simply stupid and insulting to say otherwise.

Still not sure what you mean when you say 'insulting', but I do notice that you use a lot of insulting language in your arguments.

[Weirdo]

...

And I say you're wrong for not ruining it for the vast majority of readers. Something tells me while you and your supporters would like this simply stupid and insulting plot twist, most people would know it's the wrong move and destroys Tyrion's and Tywin's characters. Seriously, what the fuck does this gain? Tyrion riding a dragon? How is it confirmed you MUST be a Targaryen to ride dragons? Tyrion riding a dragon and not having Targaryen blood ruins nothing for the story. Tyrion not being Tywin's son ruins just about everything for Tyrion's story and makes it a complete waste of time.

And as for your hypothetical scenario, just make Tyrion one of the three heads anyway without the Targaryen blood. I don't give a fuck if he's a Targaryen, but I do care if Tywin is his father. Both characters are defined by this relationship, and you'd have to be a fool to not see this relationship. If I have to choose between Tyrion's and Tywin's relationship and Tyrion riding a dragon, it's an incredibly easy choice for me: Tyrion and Tywin being related. Sorry, but Tyrion riding a dragon is merely a perk. Tyrion being related to Tywin completely defines his character, while Tyrion riding a dragon is merely a wish of you and the character. You are foolish to state otherwise.

Granted, I think Tyrion will ride a dragon and be the son of Tywin, but if I had to choose for one or the other to happen, anyone who knows anything about the character and plot progression will choose him being Tywin's son.

As to the bolded: we are just going to need to disagree on that, I guess.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

It does not let Tyrion off the hook for killing Tywin, all it does is maybe make him laugh like hell at the irony of it all.

[UnmaskedLurker]

I don't give a shit about the legality of Tyrion killing Tywin. Tyrion killing his own father is something he needs to live with, and its something you're not granting him. If Tywin is not Tyrion's father, then he's really completely off his own moral hook. He just killed a bad man, and that's all Tyrion will rationalize it. Tyrion thinks/knows now that he's completely defined by his father, and he is right. Put Tywin in Tyrion's situation or Tyrion in Tywin's situation, and they each turn out like the other. Tyrion IS Tywin's son. Neither of them want this to be the case, but it is so.

And you're wrong. Tywin would certainly be relieved Tyrion isn't his, even for the sole purpose of strangling him.

And I say you're wrong for not ruining it for the vast majority of readers. Something tells me while you and your supporters would like this simply stupid and insulting plot twist, most people would know it's the wrong move and destroys Tyrion's and Tywin's characters. Seriously, what the fuck does this gain? Tyrion riding a dragon? How is it confirmed you MUST be a Targaryen to ride dragons? Tyrion riding a dragon and not having Targaryen blood ruins nothing for the story. Tyrion not being Tywin's son ruins just about everything for Tyrion's story and makes it a complete waste of time.

And as for your hypothetical scenario, just make Tyrion one of the three heads anyway without the Targaryen blood. I don't give a fuck if he's a Targaryen, but I do care if Tywin is his father. Both characters are defined by this relationship, and you'd have to be a fool to not see this relationship. If I have to choose between Tyrion's and Tywin's relationship and Tyrion riding a dragon, it's an incredibly easy choice for me: Tyrion and Tywin being related. Sorry, but Tyrion riding a dragon is merely a perk. Tyrion being related to Tywin completely defines his character, while Tyrion riding a dragon is merely a wish of you and the character. You are foolish to state otherwise.

Granted, I think Tyrion will ride a dragon and be the son of Tywin, but if I had to choose for one or the other to happen, anyone who knows anything about the character and plot progression will choose him being Tywin's son.

I get your point (although I disagree), but you really did not answer my questions. Assume that at the beginning, for a reason that will become clear later on, it is impossible to make Tyrion the biological son of Tywin and have the story unwind the way the story is designed to unwind. Just take that as a given -- Tyrion cannot be the biological son of Tywin and have the endgame of the story work as intended. So you are GRRM and you are writing the relationship between Tywin and Tyrion -- knowing that the readers will eventually find out that Tyrion is really the son of Aerys -- how do you alter the interplay between the two characters to avoid "ruining" the relationship post reveal? Or are you essentially acknowledging that such a task is impossible -- that the fundamental nature of these characters are such that anything short of them being biological father and son would result in literary malpractice? Are you saying that there is no alternative satisfying way of constructing the relationship between Tywin and Tyrion that allows for them to be anything other than father/son biologically? And are you saying that maintaining this biological relationship is so core to developing the essence of Tyrion's character that any version of the story that does not include this story element is trash?

I suspect that you would answer "yes" to those questions. If so, that is fine -- you are certainly entitled to that point of view (although I think you greatly exaggerate how many of the "average" readers (most of whom have never visited this board) would agree with you). I just think you put way too much emphasis on the importance of that relationship. Yes, it is important in how it shaped the man that Tyrion has become. But now that Tywin is dead, IMHO, it does not really matter very much from the point of view of Tyrion's character development. What matters is how the revelation will affect Tyrion and what it will enable him to do (not just ride a dragon -- but be one of the "heads of the dragon" which is a much more select calling than just riding a dragon which many Targs in history have done).

[Ser Creighton]

I am sorry but the argument that Tywin being Tyrions dad defines who he is total BS. You define who you are, your parents may have influence in your life and a lot of it but you define who you are. Tyrions life is not about Tywin, it's about Tyrion. People are making excuses to argue nonesense. His relationship with Tywin defines him? Tywin is dead, andhis relationship with him will not change. It's does not change his experiences with Tywin, it's not like Tywin suddenly stopped being a dick to him and didn't have his wife gang raped.

Oh Tywin was not my bad so I guess that means he didn't raise me and none of my experiences with him count? It literally changes nothing, what is he suddenly going to be like well he wasn't my dad so I guess it is ok that he had my first wife Tysha gang raped? Like this somehow makes it ok for Tywin to have abused the shit out of Tyrion?

Well Ned Stark raised Jon so I guess the books will be totally ruined if Rhaegar and Lyanna are his parents and he will be the worst character ever and I will burn the books etc...

R+L+J is ok but if it's Tyrion it's bad? Jesus people double standard much?

[RumHam]

As to these new clues... The World Book kept the option open, but did not strengthen it. All it did was that timeline-wise, it is possible.

I think it did more than that. I don't know how you can read the following and not get what's being suggested:

Rhaella, was not as happy; though she turned a blind eye to most of the king’s infidelities, the queen did not approve of his “turning my ladies into his whores.” (Joanna Lannister was not the first lady to be dismissed abruptly from Her Grace’s service, nor was she the last).

Then he discounts the rumor that Aerys took Joanna's virginity, but why even bring it up? It could be that he's sorta passive-aggressively insulting Tywin, by reporting that one rumor and denying it, while elsewhere in the same section heavily implying that she had slept with Aerys.

It has been reliably reported, however, that King Aerys took unwonted liberties with Lady Joanna’s person during her bedding ceremony, to Tywin’s displeasure. Not long thereafter, Queen Rhaella dismissed Joanna Lannister from her service. No reason for this was ever given, but Lady Joanna departed at once for Casterly Rock and seldom visited King’s Landing thereafter.

It could all be misdirection of course, but it's still there. While it doesn't directly point to the two of them sleeping together during the anniversary tournament, the idea that they'd had sex before makes it seem a lot more likely that they might have on that occasion.

[Mithras]

I think it did more than that. I don't know how you can read the following and not get what's being suggested:

Then he discounts the rumor that Aerys took Joanna's virginity, but why even bring it up? It could be that he's sorta passive-aggressively insulting Tywin, by reporting that one rumor and denying it, while elsewhere in the same section heavily implying that she had slept with Aerys.

It could all be misdirection of course, but it's still there. While it doesn't directly point to the two of them sleeping together during the anniversary tournament, the idea that they'd had sex before makes it seem a lot more likely that they might have on that occasion.

All of those happened long before the conception of Tyrion. That is why it is all misdirection.

[RumHam]

All of those happened long before the conception of Tyrion. That is why it is all misdirection.

While it doesn't directly point to the two of them sleeping together during the anniversary tournament, the idea that they'd had sex before makes it seem a lot more likely that they might have on that occasion.

It takes us from "Aerys felt her up on her wedding night" to "it seems they likely had a past sexual relationship."

[Suzanna Stormborn]

It takes us from "Aerys felt her up on her wedding night" to "it seems they likely had a past sexual relationship."

There is a massive amount of evidence for AJT in WOIAF. The 10 year anniversary party happened in the year before TYrion was born, Tywin and Joanna were there, there was an incident, and Tywin handed in his resignation the next day.

Now we also know that Tywin had been treated like shit by Aerys 100 times previous, openly talked about him, openly said he was scheming behind the Kings back. made fun of him to others at court, never listened to his advice, treated him like he was a joke. But none of that made Tywin resign, now this is tywin, the man who committed the killing of the entire Reynes family, marched his step-mother on a walk of shame for making the family look bad, had Tysha gang raped in front of Tyrion for making the family look bad. But with Aerys he never seemed to mind being made to look bad until the 10 year anniv party, now why could that be? Twyin was not one for insults, ever from anyone. But he just let Aerys treat him like this all those years without saying word or resigning, ok that is very big of you Tywin. But then he just up and quits and the 10 year anniversary party, and Tyrion is born roughly 9 months later (i know we dont have exact dates, but that is how WOIAF makes it sound). So after years of taking Aerys' shit, what happened at the party that made TYwin resign? one inane comment about Joanna's breasts? really? that does not add up.

So someone tell me what did Aerys do that was so bad at the party to make Tywin resign, because we know that Tywin had already put up with years of Aerys being a psycho towards Tywin, so something really really bad and serious happened to make him resign. What was it if it was not sex with Joanna?

There are no other options, this is the only explanation that made sense. Also Aerys had 3 deformed babies with Rhaella and TYwin and Joanna had perfectly healthy twins, so who does Tyrion seem more like? Tywin's kid or Aerys's kid? which one had previous malformed children?

This all adds up, unless you are ignoring it on purpose.

ETA: If this was any other coupling there would be no discussion, this is only up for discussion because posters dont like the idea of it, that does not mean it is not real.

[Mithras]

There is a massive amount of evidence for AJT in WOIAF. The 10 year anniversary party happened in the year before TYrion was born, Tywin and Joanna were there, there was an incident, and Tywin handed in his resignation the next day.

Now we also know that Tywin had been treated like shit by Aerys 100 times previous, openly talked about him, openly said he was scheming behind the Kings back. made fun of him to others at court, never listened to his advice, treated him like he was a joke. But none of that made Tywin resign, now this is tywin, the man who committed the killing of the entire Reynes family, marched his step-mother on a walk of shame for making the family look bad, had Tysha gang raped in front of Tyrion for making the family look bad. But with Aerys he never seemed to mind being made to look bad until the 10 year anniv party, now why could that be? Twyin was not one for insults, ever from anyone. But he just let Aerys treat him like this all those years without saying word or resigning, ok that is very big of you Tywin. But then he just up and quits and the 10 year anniversary party, and Tyrion is born roughly 9 months later (i know we dont have exact dates, but that is how WOIAF makes it sound). So after years of taking Aerys' shit, what happened at the party that made TYwin resign? one inane comment about Joanna's breasts? really? that does not add up.

So someone tell me what did Aerys do that was so bad at the party to make Tywin resign, because we know that Tywin had already put up with years of Aerys being a psycho towards Tywin, so something really really bad and serious happened to make him resign. What was it if it was not sex with Joanna?

There are no other options, this is the only explanation that made sense. Also Aerys had 3 deformed babies with Rhaella and TYwin and Joanna had perfectly healthy twins, so who does Tyrion seem more like? Tywin's kid or Aerys's kid? which one had previous malformed children?

This all adds up, unless you are ignoring it on purpose.

ETA: If this was any other coupling there would be no discussion, this is only up for discussion because posters dont like the idea of it, that does not mean it is not real.

We know what incident caused Tywin to ask his resign during the anniversary. Aerys talked shit about Joanna's breasts. If Aerys raped Joanna and Tywin learned that, he would start an armed rebellion and declare independence. Lyonel Baratheon rebelled against the crown for a far less serious offense. Tywin OTOH already composed the Rains of Castamere at that time. In fact, the resolution of that possible rebellion might be a match between Rhaegar and Cersei as Tywin always wanted. If Aerys did any foul thing like that around that time, he would agree to do a penance. That is exactly what happened after the things he did following the death of his son Jaehaerys. He regretted doing those cruel things, fasted, repented and swore to not touch any of his mistresses.

So, there is massive amount of misdirection and false flag about A+J=T in TWOIAF. In fact, logic suggests exactly the opposite. Your scenario does not add up.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

It does not let Tyrion off the hook for killing Tywin, all it does is maybe make him laugh like hell at the irony of it all.

Agreed. Tywin would still be a first cousin once removed, thus Tyrion is still a kinslayer no matter what.

We know what incident caused Tywin to ask his resign during the anniversary. Aerys talked shit about Joanna's breasts. If Aerys raped Joanna and Tywin learned that, he would start an armed rebellion and declare independence. Lyonel Baratheon rebelled against the crown for a far less serious offense. Tywin OTOH already composed the Rains of Castamere at that time. In fact, the resolution of that possible rebellion might be a match between Rhaegar and Cersei as Tywin always wanted. If Aerys did any foul thing like that around that time, he would agree to do a penance. That is exactly what happened after the things he did following the death of his son Jaehaerys. He regretted doing those cruel things, fasted, repented and swore to not touch any of his mistresses.

So, there is massive amount of misdirection and false flag about A+J=T in TWOIAF. In fact, logic suggests exactly the opposite. Your scenario does not add up.

She didn't say that Aerys raped Joanna. Seducing her again would be bad enough for Tywin. He's not going to call the king out for that, and admit to the world that his darling wife cheated on him with a former lover.

Tywin obviously believed he had some cause to think Tyrion wasn't his child, but refrained from killing him. Why? Even if Tywin really is Tyrion's father, just the possibility that he could have royal blood makes it dangerous to get rid of him. If Aerys and Joanna slept together (and I'm only saying they could have) then Aerys would know that baby Tyrion could be his son. Would Tywin risk killing a child who could be Aerys's progeny when he knows word would get back to the king about it?

Despite the evidence in favor of A+J=T, I still think Tyrion is a Lannister through and through. I think GRRM set the whole thing up to make it look like Tyrion could be a Targaryen bastard, and to get the characters in the series thinking it. No matter what, Tyrion can't win. If he wasn't a dwarf, Tywin still would have harbored doubts about his paternity and treated him unfairly because of the possibility of his actually being Aerys' son. And if people think he IS Aerys' bastard, then there's the whole madness thing to deal with as well as seemingly-confirmed bastard status.

You have to admit the burn on Aerys' rejecting Cersei for Rhaegar is much worse if Tywin's wife was good enough for the king to sleep with, but his daughter isn't good enough for the prince to marry.

Little note to Suzanna Stormborn: that wasn't Tywin's step-mother; Tytos never married the woman, so she was nothing more than a mistress who was trying to act like she had a right to the same respect as a of Lady of Casterly Rock, and to the jewels that had belonged to Tytos' wife. I don't agree with what Tywin did, but I can see where he was coming from at least.

[Weirdo]

We know what incident caused Tywin to ask his resign during the anniversary. Aerys talked shit about Joanna's breasts. If Aerys raped Joanna and Tywin learned that, he would start an armed rebellion and declare independence. Lyonel Baratheon rebelled against the crown for a far less serious offense. Tywin OTOH already composed the Rains of Castamere at that time. In fact, the resolution of that possible rebellion might be a match between Rhaegar and Cersei as Tywin always wanted. If Aerys did any foul thing like that around that time, he would agree to do a penance. That is exactly what happened after the things he did following the death of his son Jaehaerys. He regretted doing those cruel things, fasted, repented and swore to not touch any of his mistresses.

So, there is massive amount of misdirection and false flag about A+J=T in TWOIAF. In fact, logic suggests exactly the opposite. Your scenario does not add up.

I don't see Tywin starting a any rebellion he didn't think he would win, despite what Aerys did to Joanna and his love for her. If he rebels against the crown and loses everything, Joanna would not benefit, nor anyone in the Lannister family. Joanna might just end up in Aerys's clutches anyway. Tywin waited out most of Robert's Rebellion. I don't think he'd start a war with the crown over Joanna's rape, but it would seal his enmity, and come to fruition during the rebellion - wait for the right moment, then completely destroy Aerys and his legacy: that sounds like the Tywin we know.

And Joanna, knowing that he knew, might have extracted a promise from Tywin to preserve the life of the child.

There is another possibility in this scenario, and that is that Tywin caught them in the act, with Joanna a willing partner to Aerys. In this setup, Tywin would always have to doubt his parentage of Tyrion, tainting their relationship in exactly the manner we have seen. It would also have tragically destroyed his trust in Joanna during the last year of her life.

These events could have happened whether or not A+J=T, but either way they put a lot more oomph behind Tywin's actions during the rebellion.

[Mithras]

I don't see Tywin starting a any rebellion he didn't think he would win, despite what Aerys did to Joanna and his love for her. If he rebels against the crown and loses everything, Joanna would not benefit, nor anyone in the Lannister family. Joanna might just end up in Aerys's clutches anyway. Tywin waited out most of Robert's Rebellion. I don't think he'd start a war with the crown over Joanna's rape, but it would seal his enmity, and come to fruition during the rebellion - wait for the right moment, then completely destroy Aerys and his legacy: that sounds like the Tywin we know.

And Joanna, knowing that he knew, might have extracted a promise from Tywin to preserve the life of the child.

There is another possibility in this scenario, and that is that Tywin caught them in the act, with Joanna a willing partner to Aerys. In this setup, Tywin would always have to doubt his parentage of Tyrion, tainting their relationship in exactly the manner we have seen. It would also have tragically destroyed his trust in Joanna during the last year of her life.

These events could have happened whether or not A+J=T, but either way they put a lot more oomph behind Tywin's actions during the rebellion.

Then you clearly do not know the Lannisters. They are the most proud House in the Realm, maybe even a match for the Targaryens.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Despite the evidence in favor of A+J=T, I still think Tyrion is a Lannister through and through. I think GRRM set the whole thing up to make it look like Tyrion could be a Targaryen bastard, and to get the characters in the series thinking it. No matter what, Tyrion can't win. If he wasn't a dwarf, Tywin still would have harbored doubts about his paternity and treated him unfairly because of the possibility of his actually being Aerys' son. And if people think he IS Aerys' bastard, then there's the whole madness thing to deal with as well as seemingly-confirmed bastard status.

This argument makes no sense to me. No one in-story has suggested that they think Tyrion might be the son of Aerys. Almost none of the clues laid out in the OP are even known to anyone in Westeros (or Essos) -- just the readers. If you only mean that Tywin thought Tyrion might not be true-born, I still don't see the point, given that Tywin died before any suspicion by Tywin was revealed to the readers.

There is simply no point to having people suspect Tyrion is the bastard son of Aerys if Tyrion is really the true-born son of Tywin, which is what virtually everyone assumes in any case. How does that work? Through most of the book Tyrion is assumed to be the son of Tywin without any real question from anyone (except maybe Tywin, but that is unclear). Then, something happens to make people doubt this scenario and think Tyrion is really the son of Ayres. But oops, it turns out in the end everyone was right in the beginning and Tyrion really is the son of Tywin. I just don't get it. I don't see how this scenario advances the narrative or accomplishes anything for the characters in the story.

The clues are just too ambiguous and never stated explicitly by any character or even speculated by any character. Accordingly, the clues do not fit the normal pattern for a red herring. When GRRM (or most any author) wants to throw out clues that are to a "false conclusion" he has a character speculate about the clues and come to the incorrect conclusion. No one has done that about Tyrion being the son of Aerys. The accumulation of evidence about AJT have been subtly dropped into the story (and WOIAF) over time in a way that few readers would even pick up on and no character would even know about for the most part.

To have the characters in-story all of a sudden come to this conclusion -- falsely -- is just pointless. You say it leaves Tyrion in a "no win" situation, but to what end? How does the introduction of questions about his paternity -- which turn out to be incorrect -- give Tyrion a no-win situation? Sure, he does not want to be the son of Tywin or Aerys -- so what? How does introducing the possibility of an alternative father who Tyrion also does not want to be his father -- but in the end turns out not to be his father -- advance the narrative. I just don't get your logic.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

Little note to Suzanna Stormborn: that wasn't Tywin's step-mother; Tytos never married the woman, so she was nothing more than a mistress who was trying to act like she had a right to the same respect as a of Lady of Casterly Rock, and to the jewels that had belonged to Tytos' wife. I don't agree with what Tywin did, but I can see where he was coming from at least.

Right right,sorry, well you knew what I meant, woman sleeping with his father at the time of his death.

My point was that Tywin does not take things lying down from anyone, except Aerys apparently. He took a massive amount of shit from Aerys through his entire time as Hand of the king to Aerys, we have all read woiaf, the things that Aerys did to Tywin and Tywin just wiped his chin and said thank you over and over and over, it made me gasp several times, I could not believe it........But then Tywin resigns over one comment about Joanna's breasts? When Aerys had clearly felt up her breasts at the bedding ceremony of Tywin and Joanna's wedding, yet that wasn't still wasn't enough to piss Tywin off and make him resign, and the thing that finally did him in after 18 years of this BS was one small comment about breasts? UM NO, I am sorry but NO NO NO. That is stupid and does not make sense, something else very very big happened that night of the 10th anniversary party. Something bigger than one stupid comment, something bigger than undermining Tywin, something bigger than feeling up his wife. Well what is the one thing that is bigger than all of that? SEX !!!!! SEX SEX SEX, it is the ONLY thing big enough to make Tywin resign, and I think everyone can understand that. He resigned the next day and they immediately left.

TYwin is no idiot, this is not something to go to war over....... go to war with the crown? How would that look? Does Tywin care about the look of things? Um yes, we all know that he cares more about the look of things than he does about anything else in the world, more than his own children even, clearly.

Which is why he resigned but did nothing else. If he wanted to go to war with Aerys he would have done it when he heard that Aerys was insulting to him in court to all the other lords openly, that is far worse than one stupid comment about breasts.

TYwin and Aerys deserved each other, then they were both killed by each other's sons for being tyrants and terrible father's. I love the poetic irony in that.

ETA: Lady Blizzardborn, you said that other characters were thinking Tyrion may be a bastard. Who did you mean I am curious?

Of course, If you ask me, there was speculation in Dorne, based on Oberyn's comments to TYrion when he came to KL. thw whole thing about how he had a tail and an evil eye and whatever else. I think there proabably was rampant specualtion among smarter ppl in Westeros, given that Aerys+ Joanna was hardly a secret if it made it into WOIAF (written by a maester). And everyone also knew that Aerys had had deformed babies previously, I really think that is what Oberyn was hinting at. He says he heard a begging brother preach about it, preach that 'Tywin had made himself greater than the king'....... People were talking for sure about the whole situation.

."I had just been born, what did you expect of me?"

"Enormity," the black-haired prince replied. "You were small, but far-famed. We were in Oldtown at your birth, and all the city talked of was the monster that had been bored to King's Hand, and what such an omen might foretell for the realm."....................Lord Tywin had made himself greater than king Aerys, I heard one begging brother preach, but only a god is meant to stand above a king. You were his curse, a punishment sent by the gods to teach him that he was no better than any other man."......."You did have one evil eye, and some black fuzz on your scalp.......You shrieked, but it was only when your brother Jaime said, 'Leave him be, you're hurting him,' then Cersei let go of you. 'It doesn't matter, ' she told us. 'Everyone says he's like to die soon."