R+L=J v.117

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I agree with most of what you said except the bolded part. There are not "many" references to a "bloody bed." There is exactly one, by Mirri Maz Duur, and she may be referring to child birth narrowly or to the entire flowering-sex-childbirth process.

Damphair talks about women in their beds of blood and pain. Cersei talks about a woman's life being mostly one of blood and mess. Brienne and Cat talk about a woman's pain--not precisely the same thing, I know but I'm putting it out there since it was brought up earlier.

Tarly also said "birthing bed".

What it seems very obvious is that birth in Westeros happens on a bed.

[sj4iy]

Oh boy, the thread is going to a weird place again isn't it?

It's difficult to avoid when people start trying to come up with alternatives to "how Lyanna died". You know it has jumped the shark when someone seriously suggests that she and Rhaegar never had sex.

[markg171]

Roose and Walder Frey both talk about their bastard children as their children. Also, it's not like people in this series sit around and list all their children to pass the time. But at that moment--when Ned is actively thinking about his children--he doesn't just not list Jon...he waits until the topic (in his head) has moved on and then mentions Jon. It's not that he's not forgetting Jon, he is placing Jon in a latter category...as someone who is not his child.

He thinks about "his children" and lists them--Robb, Sansa, Arya, Bran, Rickon...and then it goes on for a bit and then he thinks about 'and what if it were Jon" in other words: this person is not my child like the other 5. Someone who is not my son but still my blood.

Damphair talks about women in their beds of blood and pain. Cersei talks about a woman's life being mostly one of blood and mess. Brienne and Cat talk about a woman's pain--not precisely the same thing, I know but I'm putting it out there since it was brought up earlier.

If it came to that, the life of some child I did not know, against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do? Even more so, what would Catelyn do, if it were Jon’s life, against the children of her body? He did not know. He prayed he never would.

I have no idea how you guys have ever come to this conclusion. He's saying Jon is not Catelyn's child. Which he's not. He's never saying that Jon isn't his. In fact, the fact that he immediately contrasts Jon with his and Catelyn's children says that clearly Jon is his alone. Catelyn is used to separate the two.

There's nothing here saying Jon is not Ned's child. That's simply your reading of it. That doesn't make it true.

[The Twinslayer]

Does anyone in the series ever list one of their bastards when they list their children?

Funny you should ask. Ned does not generally think of bastards as being among a man's children. They are an afterthought, as we see in his last conversation with Robert.

"I will give Lyanna your love, Ned. Take care of my children for me."

The words twisted in Ned's belly like a knife. For a moment he was at a loss. He could not bring himself to lie.

At this moment, Ned is thinking that Robert has no children. Just as Sansa thinks that Jon is not her "brother."

But then, the afterthought:

Then he remembered the bastards...

. One of whom he knew from birth (Mya) and one of whom he had seen more recently than he had seen Joffrey, Tommen or Myrcella (Barra).

I don't find it odd that Ned distinguishes between his true born children and the boy who is either his bastard or his adopted son.

[markg171]

Robert believes Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna because in his mind, Lyanna would be incapable of have actually decided to go with him by her own account. And I doubt he believes that Rhaegar would have kidnapped Lyanna to talk to her. In many mythologies, when a man kidnaps a woman, it's because he sexually wants her. He is just assuming the obvious. Robert himself doesn't relate children to sex, if you analyse him well. Unlike other men, he never returns to his women to check if he left any child. Also, it is possible to be raped (even many times) and not getting pregnant.

Technically, they are not the same. Arthur and Whent were not there to witness that.

And the door is not as open as you might thing. The first question would be "why?". Rhaegar has died probably months ago, why just kill Lyanna now that Ned is there? Or did they hurt her and let her bleed until she died? Doubt it. Also, Lyanna was still alive when Ned found her, and Ned remembers Arthur as an honourable man. He wouldn't think that of him if he had tried to kill Lyanna or let her there to die, and I doubt Lyanna would also omit that part when she tried to make some explaining to Ned (she asked to return to Winterfell but she forgot to tell him that the KG tried to kill her?)

There's nothing that says she couldn't have gotten injured and the KG sent someone to patch her up. When Robert gets gored by the boar, he gets bandaged up but still bleeds through and bloodies everything before dying. Lyanna had a fever and a lot of blood. We've seen that before to indicate wounds that have gone bad.

[BearQueen87]

I have no idea how you guys have ever come to this conclusion. He's saying Jon is not Catelyn's child. Which he's not. He's never saying that Jon isn't his. In fact, the fact that he immediately contrasts Jon with his and Catelyn's children says that clearly Jon is his alone. Catelyn is used to separate the two.

There's nothing here saying Jon is not Ned's child. That's simply your reading of it. That doesn't make it true.

So why doesn't Ned--the right honorable, loves Jon no matter what, raised him as his son even if he's not--Ned Stark NOT include Jon in that list of his children--which Jon would be, Cat or no. Jon is part of the Cat subset but not in the list of his children. George is deliberately drawing your attention to that. George is clever and smart and he does this A LOT: something so innocuous until you stop and think about it.

And come on...to turn this on you...there is nothing here saying Jon IS Ned's child. That's simply your reading of it. That doesn't make it true.

[The Twinslayer]

Damphair talks about women in their beds of blood and pain. Cersei talks about a woman's life being mostly one of blood and mess. Brienne and Cat talk about a woman's pain--not precisely the same thing, I know but I'm putting it out there since it was brought up earlier.

Damphair talks about birthing children in beds of "blood and pain." I think that refers to labour and delivery but it might mean more.

Cersei talks about pain, blood and mess in reference to everything from flowering to childbirth. She is responding to Sansa's saying she knew about flowering but did not think it would be so messy.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

There's nothing that says she couldn't have gotten injured and the KG sent someone to patch her up. When Robert gets gored by the boar, he gets bandaged up but still bleeds through and bloodies everything before dying. Lyanna had a fever and a lot of blood. We've seen that before to indicate wounds that have gone bad.

How did she got injured?

Really, why looking for the impossible when we already have the hints RIGHT UNDER OUR NOSES?

She spent almost one year with a man that moved her into tears and who said her name before he died. Such man also named the place they were living his "tower of joy". Rhaegar didn't intend it in this way, but this is a clear euphemism from GRRM that means they HAD SEX there: there is joy, and there is a tower. Tower is a symbol of something phallic, masculine. And Lyanna was found with and given by Rhaegar, a crown of flowers. A crown. A crown is a circle, something round, like the moon, often representing women and motherhood. This crown was put on HER LAP by Rhaegar's lance. Lyanna's CROWN was hanging from Rhaegar's LANCE. Please, don't make me draw it.

[Ser Creighton]

Flying Alien Water Buffalos.Because, why then not say something like "uhmm... maybe Lyanna was... hemophiliac!"? I mean, why not. That would be the SHOCKING PLOT TWIST that no one expects to happen, which is what many believe ASOIAF is about.Girl disappeared for months with a man. Girl is found in a bloody bed, protected by the man's bodyguards. Brother returns home with a baby after he had to kill the bodyguards first.Ah... Girl had bad coagulation, that has to be!

Well first it's very clear what ASOIAF is about

A Arya

S Stark

O Operation

I Ice

A And

F Faceless men.

And now that you're here, you can set it right! Make us all serious, Ser!

Ummm ok no pressure. Serious? Serious? Seriously? Let us all take a moment to look at Martins use of the letter I, it appears over and over again in the series. Why? What does it mean? It occurs no less than 28,000 times in the books. That is a rough estimate, it sometimes has a dot and sometimes doesn't as if trying to disguise itself as an l. Now while I/i is a cousin to L/l one must wonder at the deceit. Perhaps a code for the alien legless buffalo to time their inevitable invasion. Like morse code which also contains dashes and dots.

When they get here there will apparently be bloody penises, looks a bit like an if you think about it. Minus the blood and the lower case I or i appears to be shooting something out of it. Which may have led to the bed of blood. So the Alien legless Buffalo are using vertical morse to plot against Westeros, the code seems to indicate that they abducted Lyanna and Rhaegar, then used a lower case to shoot Lyanna, to create a either a weapon to destroy the others, or man. This weapon is symbolic of a sword, which is often symbolic of a penis as well. So South Park was right it's all about penises killing people and legless alien buffalo.

Well I am glad that is figured out, got worried for a second. Cracked that code, that's two people I am totally on fire. Well three if you count the title. It is clearly about Arya who has a sword, given to her by Jon which means, Arya is Lyanna baby via legless alien buffalo abduction. The oily black stones are clearly fossilized ALB dung that man has polished up a bit.

[BearQueen87]

There's nothing that says she couldn't have gotten injured and the KG sent someone to patch her up. When Robert gets gored by the boar, he gets bandaged up but still bleeds through and bloodies everything before dying. Lyanna had a fever and a lot of blood. We've seen that before to indicate wounds that have gone bad.

OR she just gave birth and dying of puerperal fever...look it up.

You're now trying to create some sort of conspiracy by which Lyanna is somehow injured while alone with 3 KG in a remote tower in Dorne but the 3KG send for help to patch Lyanna up and..what? Just sit on their haunches?

Tell me. How did they send for someone. Ravens don't come and go from the abandoned TOJ--there is no maester there and ravens work like homing pigeons. They must return home to roost.

[markg171]

So why doesn't Ned--the right honorable, loves Jon no matter what, raised him as his son even if he's not--Ned Stark NOT include Jon in that list of his children--which Jon would be, Cat or no. Jon is part of the Cat subset but not in the list of his children. George is deliberately drawing your attention to that. George is clever and smart and he does this A LOT: something so innocuous until you stop and think about it.

And come on...to turn this on you...there is nothing here saying Jon IS Ned's child. That's simply your reading of it. That doesn't make it true.

THAT'S EXACTLY MY POINT. You or me can read whatever we want out of a passage. It doesn't mean it's anything other than what we THINK.

[BearQueen87]

How did she got injured?

Really, why looking for the impossible when we already have the hints RIGHT UNDER OUR NOSES?

She spent almost one year with a man that moved her into tears and who said her name before he died. Such man also named the place they were living his "tower of joy". Rhaegar didn't intend it in this way, but this is a clear euphemism from GRRM that means they HAD SEX there: there is joy, and there is a tower. Tower is a symbol of something phallic, masculine. And Lyanna was found with and given by Rhaegar, a crown of flowers. A crown. A crown is a circle, something round, like the moon, often representing women and motherhood. This crown was put on HER LAP by Rhaegar's lance. Lyanna's CROWN was hanging from Rhaegar's LANCE. Please, don't make me draw it.

Sweet heaven...draw it out! Use Babesgar!! ;)

Well first it's very clear what ASOIAF is about

A Arya

S Stark

O Operation

I Ice

A And

F Faceless men.

Ummm ok no pressure. Serious? Serious? Seriously? Let us all take a moment to look at Martins use of the letter I, it appears over and over again in the series. Why? What does it mean? It occurs no less than 28,000 times in the books. That is a rough estimate, it sometimes has a dot and sometimes doesn't as if trying to disguise itself as an l. Now while I/i is a cousin to L/l one must wonder at the deceit. Perhaps a code for the alien legless buffalo to time their inevitable invasion. Like morse code which also contains dashes and dots.

When they get here there will apparently be bloody penises, looks a bit like an if you think about it. Minus the blood and the lower case I or i appears to be shooting something out of it. Which may have led to the bed of blood. So the Alien legless Buffalo are using vertical morse to plot against Westeros, the code seems to indicate that they abducted Lyanna and Rhaegar, then used a lower case to shoot Lyanna, to create a either a weapon to destroy the others, or man. This weapon is symbolic of a sword, which is often symbolic of a penis as well. So South Park was right it's all about penises killing people and legless alien buffalo.

Well I am glad that is figured out, got worried for a second. Cracked that code, that's two people I am totally on fire. Well three if you count the title. It is clearly about Arya who has a sword, given to her by Jon which means, Arya is Lyanna baby via legless alien buffalo abduction. The oily black stones are clearly fossilized ALB dung that man has polished up a bit.

Well I don't need to read WOW or ADOS anymore! Ser C knows what's up.

[Ser Creighton]

It's difficult to avoid when people start trying to come up with alternatives to "how Lyanna died". You know it has jumped the shark when someone seriously suggests that she and Rhaegar never had sex.

She is not dead she is with the Alien legless buffalo on the planet Rhaegar. You know if you think about it, it's not a bad name for a planet actually. They are a very smart race, they had to be they were born without legs and quickly had to invent things to get around on and they didn't have hands either so, mind powers. The children were clearly their slaves, and they taught them how to speak with animals and you know mind powers.

Because they didn't have legs they invented the Others who could make ice slides for them to get around on. So the legless alien buffalo just sort of slid around everywhere. and built great giant ice slides, like at a water park but with ice instead and bigger, much bigger.

[markg171]

Funny you should ask. Ned does not generally think of bastards as being among a man's children. They are an afterthought, as we see in his last conversation with Robert.

. At this moment, Ned is thinking that Robert has no children. Just as Sansa thinks that Jin is not her "brother."

But then the afterthought:. One of whom he knew from birth (Mya) and one of whom he had seen more recently that Joffrey, Tommen or Myrcella (Barra).

I don't find it odd that Ned distinguishes between his true born children and the boy who is either his bastard or his adopted son.

This is why, although I don't see Ned as actually leaving Jon out of his list of children, even if he did it means nothing. Your bastard isn't your child. They're just a person that you made with someone. Your child is someone you have with your wife, who carries legal rights and responsibilities in Westoros. No one thinks about their bastards as their children in the series, and your quote here shows that Ned doesn't think of them as someone's child either.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Sweet heaven...draw it out! Use Babesgar!! ;)

http://i.imgur.com/Lj3cX9Y.gif (fixed)

[Ser Creighton]

Sweet heaven...draw it out! Use Babesgar!! ;)

Well I don't need to read WOW or ADOS anymore! Ser C knows what's up.

Oh yeah I got the goods upstairs. Mom always said she though someone blew out the pilot light but I think it's working just fine.

[BearQueen87]

http://i.imgur.com/Lj3cX9Y.gif (fixed)

This is now my favorite thing.

[Ser Creighton]

http://i.imgur.com/hSUtslq.gif

It's a happy magic mushroom it appears Rhaegar was tripping balls when he gave her the flowers. Though he does not seem to know where to aim his lance, or maybe he does? He does seem to be making a face about it. Sort of that I was ooooooooooo I was naughty face.

[BearQueen87]

It's a happy magic mushroom it appears Rhaegar was tripping balls when he gave her the flowers. Though he does not seem to know where to aim his lance, or maybe he does? He does seem to be making a face about it. Sort of that I was ooooooooooo I was naughty face.

Lyanna looks a little concerned. Like, "oh sweet seven. I have to teach him everything, don't I?"

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Lyanna looks a little concerned. Like, "oh sweet seven. I have to teach him everything, don't I?"

"I thought your wife was Dornish..."