R+L=J v.117

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

My point was that in that passage, yes Arya is described as Cat's daughter, she's just not described as Ned's. Just his blood. Ergo, you could say that she's not Ned's, like you guys say that Jon isn't Ned's because he's only his blood, not his son.

Arya is described as Catelyns trueborn daughter, which means that Arya is the product of Cayelyn and her lawful husband, which is Ned.

[markg171]

While re-reading Dance, I've come across a rather relevant line regarding kingship succession:

"When he is dead, there will be a choosing and the knives will come out. That was the way of it in Braavos. In Westoros, a dead king was followed by his eldest son" - The Blind Girl

So the World Book had it right. Viserys was Aerys' heir and later king. Not any child of Rhaegar's.

[The Red Widow of Coldmoat]

While re-reading Dance, I've come across a rather relevant line regarding kingship succession:

"When he is dead, there will be a choosing and the knives will come out. That was the way of it in Braavos. In Westoros, a dead king was followed by his eldest son" - The Blind Girl

So the World Book had it right. Viserys was Aerys' heir and later king. Not any child of Rhaegar's.

That doesn't say what you say that it does at all. Viserys was not Aerys's eldest son.

[finger]

No, asoiaf is about exact science, genetics and what it says in the books, there's nothing about dramatic ironies, wordplay/patterns, hints, clues, and foreshadowing, ESPECIALLY something called 'The Central Mystery' of the series, pppffffttttt that's absurd!

No, because of what characters say in the book.

Elder brother to Brienne:

“When I died in the Battle of the Trident. I fought for Prince Rhaegar, though he never knew my name. I could not tell you why, save that the lord I served served a lord who served a The battle was a bloody thing. The singers would have us believe it was all Rhaegar and Robert struggling in the stream for a woman both of them claimed to love, but I assure you, other men were fighting too, and I was one.

Rhaegar crown and stole Lyanna, wildling style, yup, I believe that.

Dany to Selmy:

“But that was the tourney when he crowned Lyanna Stark as queen of love and beauty!” said Dany. “Princess Elia was there, his wife, and yet my brother gave the crown to the Stark girl, and later stole her away from her betrothed. How could he do that? Did the Dornish woman treat him so ill?”

JonCon:

That was for the best. In Jon Connington’s experience, men would fight for things they felt were theirs, even things they’d gained by theft.

Like Father like son (Jon didn't realized he stole Ygritte):

And when the Thief was in the Moonmaid, that was a propitious time for a man to steal a woman, Ygritte insisted. “Like the night you stole me. The Thief was bright that night.”

“I never meant to steal you,” he said. “I never knew you were a girl until my knife was at your throat.”

Jon realizing that you must steal to love:

I would need to steal her (Val) if I wanted her love...

Jon stole Val confirmed (by a certain raven and Val herself) when he send her north, he didn't even realized it:

“He may not heed your words, but he will hear them.” Val kissed him lightly on the cheek. “You have my thanks, Lord Snow. For the half-blind horse, the salt cod, the free air. For hope.”

Their breath mingled, a white mist in the air

...

“Thief,” Jon said, as the bird flapped up to the lintel above the door to devour its prize.

“Thief,” the raven agreed.

...

“Lord Crow is welcome to steal into my bed any night he dares. Once he’s been gelded, keeping those vows will come much easier for him.”

:agree:

Jon is the silent killer. He'll steal wifes without noticing.

IMO, he had stolen Val when Stannis attacked. He was in Mance's tent and he saved Val and Mance's son at swordpoint through fighting people.

I'm sure you've noticed that a wildling woman is stolen when and only she considers it so. Ygritte decided that Jon had stolen her and she made it true. I thing Val has decided too.

Lyanna is thought to have some wildling blood... no need to tell the rest, right?

[markg171]

That doesn't say what you say that it does at all. Viserys was not Aerys's eldest son.

Rhaegar was dead. Viserys is Aerys' eldest son.

[The Red Widow of Coldmoat]

Rhaegar was dead. Viserys is Aerys' eldest son.

Eldest living son, maybe, but Viserys was never Aerys's eldest son. The quote you provided demonstrates nothing.

Besides, if you're going to refer to the World Book, it's clearly stated that Aerys I, who was Daeron's eldest living son after what happened at Ashford, never expected to be king. This was because Baelor Breakspear had two sons of his own, who died around the same time as Daeron. Aerys was clearly not Daeron's heir between Baelor's death and when the Great Spring Sickness hit.

Furthermore, dead prince Rhaegel's son Aelor was Aerys's heir before Prince Maekar, another of Aerys's brothers.

It is quite clear that in the standard succession, a dead elder son's children come before a younger son. If Viserys were actually heir while Aegon lived, it was because he was specifically designated as such. The quote you provided shows absolutely nothing and your interpretation is clearly contradicted by the facts that we are provided.

[finger]

I can only say what I said before: the Aegon-in-the-tower scenario basically thrives off the bits of Jon-is-the-king scenario because both interpret the ToJ scene as the KG guarding a king. Other than that, the text provides nothing to the accord that Aegon was ever smuggled from KL, regardless of by whom or how. Mere "it would have been logical for Rhaegar to want his PTWP safe" is not enough, I'm afraid as there is many a logical hypothetical scenario which simply never happened. All we have as a fact is that Aegon's body was maimed beyond recognition. We know that Varys is certainly able to smuggle someone from the Red Keep but that doesn't mean that he did, we know that Rhaegar was trying to appease Aerys' paranoia and not drive him even deeper into it, we know that Elia was in the nursery with Aegon and fought for his life. Compared to all the R+L hints which basically build it as the mystery, there is very little to base the speculations about Aegon on, which, IMHO, supports that he is not who he claims to be.

We all interpret the clues that GRRM findz fit to give us.

In fact, I don't remember it's stated thant Lyanna died at ToJ, and most are giving it for certain.

Or that there was anyone in the tower while they fought. We only have dream memories.

But we all must think he's not cheating us, since we keep reading the stuff. The characters must then act with logic.

Presenting a disfigurate corpse when you want to congratiate with Robert is not like shrewd Tywin. It has to be a fake.

If Varys pretends to have raised Aegon, it is because he knows Aegon has been smuggled. (BTW, did Tywin know Aegon?)

Three KGs with a pregnant by-wife in the middle of the decisive battle is mere nonsense. Are they midwives?

The LC of the KG acting as a courier is simply foolhardy. And so on... I've told the whole set many times before.

In sum, there must be something very important to divert 3 KG to that remote location. Since they guard the royals and we know where everybody else was, the only option left is Aegon.

It comes out of simple logic.

[finger]

How the ever loving f*** are you forgetting about Rhaegar Targaryen, the heir to the throne (and fully capable of ordering KG, apparently).

The Jon is (potentially) King because of the presence of the kingsguard does not state that the KG never followed orders, or that guarding royalty was their reason for being at the ToJ in the first place. It states that the KG remained at the ToJ after learning about the deaths of Aerys, Rhaegar, and Aegon, and the flight of Viserys.

The argument is that the KG at that point should have sent at least one of their members to guard the new king, rather on continuing to blindly follow the orders of someone who was now dead. But they didn't. That leaves a few possibilities IMO.

1. Jon is born, when they find the news, and is by all rights the heir to Aerys' throne. No need for protect v obey.

2. Jon is not born when they hear the news, and they wait to see the gender of the child, since a boy would mean there is no need to choose between protect and obey.

3. Jon is not born when they hear the news, and they decide to send one to protect what might be the king. At this point, orders are still obeyed collectively, and the king, regardless of the outcome of the birth, will have KG protection.

4. Drop what they're doing and go protect their king, realizing dead uncle's orders have no impact on the protection status of the rightful king (Viserys).

In other words, the reason the KG are at the TOJ transitions from protecting Rhaegar, to following Rhaegar's orders, to protecting Jon. It is never exclusively about protecting the heir for the entire time they are away.

The point is that you, and most, only focus on the fight scene, and refuse to think on what happened before.

Since Rhaegar went away till Ned came in, 3 KGs seem to have been iddling about ToJ. WHY?

Did Rhaegar give this apparently stupid command? And if so, was Rhaegar stupid or had he a good reason? WHAT?

These are the relevant questions. How honed their swords were, and the sort, is just inmaterial.

[finger]

Jaime's weirwood dream shows us that Jaime swore an oath to protect Rhaegar's children (plural)

^{Five had been his brothers. Oswell Whent and Jon Darry. Lewyn Martell, a prince of Dorne. The White Bull, Gerold Hightower. Ser Arthur Dayne, Sword of the Morning. And beside them, crowned in mist and grief with his long hair streaming behind him, rode Rhaegar Targaryen, Prince of Dragonstone and rightful heir to the Iron Throne.}

^{“You don’t frighten me,” he called, turning as they split to either side of him. He did not know which way to face. “I will fight you one by one or all together. But who is there for the wench to duel? She gets cross when you leave her out.”}

^{“I swore an oath to keep him safe,” she said to Rhaegar’s shade. “I swore a holy oath.”}

^{“We all swore oaths,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, so sadly.}

^{The shades dismounted from their ghostly horses. When they drew their longswords, it made not a sound. “He was going to burn the city,” Jaime said. “To leave Robert only ashes.” “He was your king,” said Darry.}

^{“You swore to keep him safe,” said Whent.}

^{“And the children, them as well,” said Prince Lewyn.}

^{Prince Rhaegar burned with a cold light, now white, now red, now dark. “I left my wife and children in your hands.”}

^{“I never thought he’d hurt them.” Jaime’s sword was burning less brightly now. “I was with the king...}

^{“Killing the king,” said Ser Arthur.}

^{“Cutting his throat,” said Prince Lewyn.}

^{“The king you had sworn to die for,” said the White Bull.}

“I left my wife and children in your hands.” in Kings Landing where Jaime was.

It's Jaime's dream. That scene never happened.

I think is too obvious, but I could elaborate.

[finger]

Ah well this goes back to what I laid out last night. The problem with the tower is the assumption that Rhaegar was resident there with his bit on the side for months on end rather than doing the sensible thing and stopping at the Dayne place further down the road at Starfall. Not only is it just a small watchtower but contrary to popular belief it isn't even a remote hideaway but a watchtower in the Prince's Pass which we're told is not only one of the two roads into Dorne, but its the broadest and easiest one, and if, as they [who?] told Ned, Rhaegar referred to it as the tower of joy [lower case throughout] then its far more likely to have been because once he was past it he was home free and safely into Dorne.

As to what the Kings Guard were up to their behaviour isn't strange at all if you get away from the notion that they were resident there and that instead they were journeying north up the Pass when they ran into Ned and his party coming south down the Pass into Dorne.

All we know is they were together in some hidden place.

I agree it's not stated that the tower was inhabited when Ned arrived. In fact, the story might work better if they were by their own, preparing an ambush.

And their behavoiur was strange before that, while they remained in Dorne for months apparently doing nothing. The first logical thig they did was entering into the fight.

[finger]

As to Aegon, no I really don't buy that one at all and it would only work if Jon is Aegon, which is impossible given the age difference and the fact that he's clearly a Stark and therefore if not Ned's son then Lyanna's. If Aegon does live it can only be because he was smuggled out of King's Landing at the last minute and taken directly across the Narrow Sea in order to deny him to the Martells.

It's implied by Hightower going to fetch Rhaegar, but staying there.

"You've found me. Now, sit down here and watch the open skies of Dorne"

[finger]

You know, we've had a few threads of "Aegon at ToJ" a few months ago (I think it was just before the summer holiday). We discussed it in those threads (there were multiple versions of that one as well, I seem to recall), and here (no idea which version).

I even seem to recall that you were part of those discussions...

The theory was rather rebuffed, wasn´t it?

To get back at your point 4.

It is not up to the Kingsguard to choose the King. True. But that doesn't mean that it has never happened (Criston Cole is not called the "Kingmaker" without a reason).

We know that Viserys was crowned at Dragonstone, eventually, because as far as everyone knew, Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon were dead. Viserys was the last male left, and thus, the last Targaryen who could be crowned King.

You're right. This is not the first time this theory is discussed. We started long ago and still GRRM won't deliver the sixth stallment.

The theory was rather rebuffed, as you say, without much real discussion. You know, Hightower went to look for Rhaegar because Aerys commaded so, he found him without difficulty because he was very clever, Rhaegar obeyed his father command... well, just because, and he ordered Hightower to stay with the others because it was in him. All that makes sense and your theory is absurd. Business as usual.

As TWOIAF explains, there can be different ways of naming a king, depending on the circumstances. It can be straighforward, as in the battle of the Six Kings, or it can be open to opinions.

When this happens, there can be a council summoned, or someone might act, as in your example, or it can end up in war.

I say that even if Jon is Rhaegar's son and Aegon is alive, it's not that clear who'd succeed Aerys, since Rhaegar was dead.

[finger]

1) So Hightower, when tasked to find Rhaegar by Aerys, decided to smuggle out Baegon (Baby Aegon) on his own? Or on the orders of Varys? It does not seem within character for Hightower to do it because Varys ordered it, only if Aerys ordered it, which he wouldn't.

Also, what is the point of Baegon being at the ToJ? What would it add to the story? Oh, yet another infans ex machina, Howland Reed telling us, "Oh yeah, that nobody dude from nowhere who has not actually been mentioned before in the story, that is actually Rhaegar's son, Aegon."

ETA: It was not on Varys's orders (see your point 3 above) then Hightower did it on his own. No way. Hightower went and found Rhaegar came back to KL and took Aegon, but didn't tell Aerys. No way. Not credible.

I've explained it many a time, but know TWOIAF has confirmed that Aerys and Rhaegar were at odds.

Rhaegar had gone away. Aegon was his price for coming back. He wanted him out of Aerys reach if something went wrong. Aerys needed Rhaegar, Aegon was his grandson anyway, and he had Elia and Rhaennys as hostages, so he obliged. Besides, no one would know. Elia felt her son would be safer and conceded. No crack.

Read better, think more, no Varys involved anyhow. Of course Hightower obeyed Aerys, and Rhaegar, both of them.

[finger]

Indeed..

Rhaegar could have easily told Hightower, btw. It's not like Rhaegar needed to race back to KL the second Hightower appeared :)

So, IceFire and you think that Hightower was needed to see that the newborn was trueborn.

Surprising.

[Black Crow]

The simplest explanation of Hightower being in Dorne is GRRM's statement about obeying orders. If just for the sake of argument we accept [and I don't] Lyanna's bump is destined to be the rightful lawful king, he was still only a bump when Hightower tooled up. Up until this point Dayne and Whent have been more than adequate to guard both Rhaegar and Lyanna. Why then is it necessary to order Hightower to stay behind as well while Rhaegar, the actual heir to the throne, rides north into a war zone without any member of the Kings Guard to protect him?

Answer: because we know that Rhaegar intends to carry out a coup and therefore the very last thing he wants is the White Bull doing his duty by protecting his king - Aerys.

[finger]

The simplest explanation of Hightower being in Dorne is GRRM's statement about obeying orders. If just for the sake of argument we accept [and I don't] Lyanna's bump is destined to be the rightful lawful king, he was still only a bump when Hightower tooled up. Up until this point Dayne and Whent have been more than adequate to guard both Rhaegar and Lyanna. Why then is it necessary to order Hightower to stay behind as well while Rhaegar, the actual heir to the throne, rides north into a war zone without any member of the Kings Guard to protect him?

Answer: because we know that Rhaegar intends to carry out a coup and therefore the very last thing he wants is the White Bull doing his duty by protecting his king - Aerys.

I think this is the first plausible reason I've read. It may work, but still...

As far as I remember, Arthur Dayne is a great strategist and closest Rhaegar's friend, according to Jaime's and Barristan's memories. He defeated those people in the Kingwood, at least.

Why did Rhaegar left him behind as well? Wasn't he one of his partisans? Hightower followed orders. Whent and H were more than enough to guard Lyanna. So then?

[Black Crow]

...and ensure Hightower stayed put.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

I may not have expressed myself clearly. The knowledge that I stated as facts are such as are confirmed by first-hand witnesses - both Ned and Kevan remember the sight of Aegon's smashed skull...

Here's our first-hand witness account from Kevan Lannister, in his own POV. Randall Tarly says Young Griff is a fake. And from Kevan himself, we get:

"That may be. Or not." Kevan Lannister had been here, in this very hall when Tywin had laid the bodies of Prince Rhaegars children at the foot of the Iron Throne, wrapped up in crimson cloaks. The girl had been recognizably the Princess Rhaenys, but the boy... a faceless horror of bone and brain and gore, a few hanks of fair hair. None of us looked long. Tywin said that it was Prince Aegon, and we took him at his word.

.

[The guy from the Vale]

Here's your first-hand witness account from Kevan Lannister, in his own POV. Randall Tarly says Aegon is a fake. And from Kevan himself, we get:

"That may be. Or not." Kevan Lannister had been here, in this very hall when Tywin had laid the bodies of Prince Rhaegars children at the foot of the Iron Throne, wrapped up in crimson cloaks. The girl had been recognizably the Princess Rhaenys, but the boy... a faceless horror of bone and brain and gore, a few hanks of fair hair. None of us looked long. Tywin said that it was Prince Aegon, and we took him at his word.

.

Pycelle would have had to take a longer look though, and Pycelle was Aegon's physician.

Curiously enough, who is the first person Varys kills once Young Griff has landed on the shores? Oh, yeah, Pycelle.

[Ygrain]

Just a quick response before I have to go to sleep. I think it is very important to shift through the facts we are given and see what we really know, and what, on the other hand, we only assume. Your points are spot on to this point. Ned and Kevan are "first-hand witnesses" to what? They are both witnesses to Tywin laying before his new king the bodies of Elia and her children, including the child Tywin claims as Aegon, but is unrecognizable because his head is a "red ruin" from Ser Gregor Clegane's murder. We have no first hand witness of the murder other than Clegane himself. Ned and Kevan, who neither have any known contact with Aegon from his birth to the time of his supposed murder, are only reacting to the horrendous nature of the murder and the information given them. They have no way to verify that the dead child is Aegon. They only assume it is. In fact, we only have from Tywin, the assumption that his men carried out his orders and killed the right children. He may or may not know the truth but he does not witness the killing. On the other hand, we have the first hand claim by Varys, the man said to have smuggled the "real Aegon" out of King's Landing in his words to the dying Kevan Lannister that Young Griff is the real Aegon. So, if we are going only by first hand witnesses, I think you've got the facts reversed - although I must admit I don't trust Varys words any more than you seem to do. The reasons for that, however, take more "shifting." More tomorrow to both you and Mountain Lion. Oh, and you too, Twinslayer. Sorry, I didn't notice your greeting earlier and the request about the impact of the world book on certain discussions. Don't have a lot of time tomorrow but I will respond to all of you as soon as I can. Good night everyone (said in my best Tiny Tim imitation)

Again a poor phrasing on my part. By Kevan and Ned's PoVs, I didn't mean to establish that the murdered baby must necessarily have been the real Aegon but that there was indeed a murdered baby whose identity could not be established for certain as his head was smashed, hence allowing for the possibility that YG might be the real deal.