R+L=J v.117

[Alia of the knife]

Question. Ned and Cat having separate bedrooms. Odd or does the author recognize the importance of a good nights sleep?

Actually it was a custom of the times, and rather scandelous that even a married noble couple share a bedroom with the exception of the smallfolk who might have only two rooms to exist in.

And yes, there is something to be said about "doing your thing" and then going to separate corners, and if you have pets on top of that, forget about a good nights sleep.

BQ might as well sleep on the floor because she would have a "baar" sleeping at the foot of her bed. :D

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.petsincondos.org%2Fcatmap.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.petsincondos.org%2Ffun.htm&h=311&w=450&tbnid=cH2n20d-4YdwXM%3A&zoom=1&docid=pERidvAggim1OM&ei=Rs-BVN2tC8amNpPVgcAF&tbm=isch&client=firefox-a&ved=0CD0QMygVMBU&iact=rc&uact=3&dur=1121&page=2&start=21&ndsp=27

[Ser Leftwich]

I answered that in post 303 of this thread.

Fanfic of Wylla being at Winterfell and Catelyn getting pissed off is not reasonable. Catelyn having met Wylla does not hold water. If Catelyn had, why would she then later ask Ned about Ashara Dayne? She only would have done that if she knew that Wylla was not the mother of Jon.

[RumHam]

Basically, the Wildlings are more forward thinking in many ways and don't see marriage in the same rigid terms that those in the seven kingdoms do. But they still have their own ritual. And that counts as a form of marriage.

To them, but nobody in the Seven Kingdoms would recognize such a marriage as lawful.

[Alia of the knife]

Sorry to have ignored your question, sj4iy. Posts were flying fast and heavy, and looking back I see I missed a page.

Having read you posts, I'm sure you and I would disagree somewhat on what qualifies as a legitimate objection. We might also disagree on what constitutes evidence for or against a particular claim.

So without getting into long lists of examples, I'll just tell you two things I think:

(1) The greatest challenge for RLJ theory is the fact that we have no direct evidence whatsoever that Rhaegar and Lyanna ever had sex.

(2) In general, I'd suggest that any issue or question that dogs the RLJ thread consistently over time likely represents a legitimate objection which should be acknowledged in some way by the theory.

I can certainly respect your position, Alia of the knife - and didn't mean to ignore your post, either. :) I appreciate reading a bit more on how you think the relationship might have played out.

I do think that if having a "well thought out" argument is a prereq to finding welcome in these threads, then many newcomers will not feel invited in - and will find other places to work their own ideas out. Maybe they'll come back around, once they feel more confident. Or maybe they'll have written off these threads by then. But the community loses out on an opportunity for dialogue and new insight through questioning.

Well I know that my position on this is not necessarily popular, but its not like Martin is going to show up with a million dollar check for the Fantasy Sweepstakes if I'm right, so if I'm wrong I'm at peace with that. :P

Its just not that serious to me, and thats not to say that I don't appreciate the effort that goes into these debates, but is it about being right, or hopefully is it about people connecting on some level, even if it sometimes gets heated?

I think most people are here because they like the connection, and that is a good and okay thing so long as the tone is respectful.

Anyway, it would probably be more appropriate in another thread to freely and objectively discuss R+L free of bias for or against either character. As I said before, I just think sometimes the most simple answer is the right answer regarding their relationship. :dunno:

[BearQueen87]

Actually it was a custom of the times, and rather scandelous that even a married noble couple share a bedroom with the exception of the smallfolk who might have only two rooms to exist in.

And yes, there is something to be said about "doing your thing" and then going to separate corners, and if you have pets on top of that, forget about a good nights sleep.

BQ might as well sleep on the floor because she would have a "baar" sleeping at the foot of her bed. :D

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.petsincondos.org%2Fcatmap.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.petsincondos.org%2Ffun.htm&h=311&w=450&tbnid=cH2n20d-4YdwXM%3A&zoom=1&docid=pERidvAggim1OM&ei=Rs-BVN2tC8amNpPVgcAF&tbm=isch&client=firefox-a&ved=0CD0QMygVMBU&iact=rc&uact=3&dur=1121&page=2&start=21&ndsp=27

BQ will gladly sleep on the floor for her "baaaaaar"

[MtnLion]

I seem to remember discussing this with you before, but again, there is plenty of reason for Rhaegar and Elia to try to get Aegon out of King's Landing and out of the control of the the Mad King's paranoid whims. Aerys has already used Elia herself as a hostage to Dorne's compliance. He uses the children as hostages after Rhaegar's death. There is ample evidence about a split between Aerys and Rhaegar. There is testimony that the man who was Rhaegar's most trusted companion was Ser Arthur Dayne. So, reasons to smuggle Aegon out aren't even really a question. Why he would choose Ser Arthur, Hightower, and Whent to hide his child or children really isn't a hard thing to understand. These are some of the few men he trusts. The question is can Rhaegar and/or Elia get it done, and do they really trust Varys to help them do so. In short, is this part of Young Griff's story even partly true. My guess is only partly. I see no reason for them to trust Varys. I see every reason for them to try to do so without his knowledge. It may well be they try and don't succeed, and Varys uses the plot as the inspiration of one of his own using a child other than the real Aegon. Or it could be that the real Aegon is smuggled out to Ser Arthur's safe keeping, and when Varys discovers it he uses the fact to help him set his own plots in motion. The point is to look at the evidence Young Griff's story presents and to shift it for things that make sense within the context of the story as Martin has laid it out.

Totally messed up quoting, but let's see if I can fix it. I will only respond to one paragraph, and was inclined to brush all of this away with a dismissal, because it is another topic introduced with a total lack of evidence. No evidence to submit, no evidence to disregard.

Elia was held hostage when King Aerys gracelessly told Prince Lewyn that he held her hostage, near the time Rhaegar and Prince Lewyn were leaving for the Trident, yes? So, after this Rhaegar decides to smuggle Aegon out to the tower? Not sensible. After Rhaegar’s death, who in King’s Landing knows where the tower is? Who knows that it is a tower? Who knows that it is in Dorne? Who knows that Rhaegar stayed there? What, no glib answers?

There was some friction, egged on by Varys, between Rhaegar and Aerys, but you are completely blowing things out of proportion. You don’t give your strength to your enemy, so Rhaegar was not Aerys’ enemy.

Come again about reasons for Rhaegar to smuggle Aegon out to his love nest, because Rhaegar’s trusted friend is Arthur Dayne. That makes little to no sense. But, maybe you are suggesting that when Rhaegar returned to King’s Landing that he sent Aegon back with Dayne? Why didn’t Aerys summon Dayne and question him about Rhaegar’s whereabouts when he entered the city? Oh, is it because the white cloak didn’t stand out, and Varys’ little birds were taking a snooze?

Rhaegar trusted Jaime to take care of his family. Jaime’s dream tells us that truth. Jaime just didn’t think his father would have the children killed. ETA: Jaime believes that Aegon is dead. Ned believes that Aegon is dead. Barristan believes that Aegon is dead. Robert believes that Aegon is dead. Even Maester Aemon believes that Aegon is dead. No telling what Tywin believes.

[Kingmonkey]

I think it is now impossible to "disprove" R+L=J by legitimate and convincing means. There is simply too much evidence in the books and in the SSMs that make it the only viable option.

There are still many facets of R+L=J which are still up in the air, though.

1. Jon's legitimacy or lack of.

2. The future implications of R+L=J on the story.

3. Finding the true foreshadowing in the story.

Nicely said. Not quite the only viable option, but certainly by far the best supported option. I think it's pretty clear by now that it's extremely unlikely anything is going to come up that will shift that without new material appearing.

There's a lot more besides that's up in the air:

What exactly triggered the fight at the ToJ?

Ran's "Jon at Starfall" hypothesis.

Was it really a kidnapping?

Who were the "they" who found Ned after Lyanna died?

What was Ashara's involvement?

Why are the Daynes apparently pro-Stark?

What are the literary and mythic precedents to the story?

What promises did Ned make, and which were kept and which broken?

Why did Ned take only 7 men to the ToJ?

Who told Ned where to find it?

What exactly was Rhaegar trying to achieve?

Why was Arthur sad?

What was Ned's itinerary after the ToJ?

Why has Howland Reed not left the neck since the rebellion?

Enough to keep this thread interesting until WoW if people don't let it get bogged down.

[Ygrain]

I can only say what I said before: the Aegon-in-the-tower scenario basically thrives off the bits of Jon-is-the-king scenario because both interpret the ToJ scene as the KG guarding a king. Other than that, the text provides nothing to the accord that Aegon was ever smuggled from KL, regardless of by whom or how. Mere "it would have been logical for Rhaegar to want his PTWP safe" is not enough, I'm afraid as there is many a logical hypothetical scenario which simply never happened. All we have as a fact is that Aegon's body was maimed beyond recognition. We know that Varys is certainly able to smuggle someone from the Red Keep but that doesn't mean that he did, we know that Rhaegar was trying to appease Aerys' paranoia and not drive him even deeper into it, we know that Elia was in the nursery with Aegon and fought for his life. Compared to all the R+L hints which basically build it as the mystery, there is very little to base the speculations about Aegon on, which, IMHO, supports that he is not who he claims to be.

[finger]

Let's clear up this misconception:

Ned was ALWAYS an honorable man, per Robert's own description of him.

Ned didn't earn his REPUTATION for honor until:

1. He became Lord of Winterfell and fought in Robert's Rebellion.

2. He protested the deaths of the Targaryen children.

3. He returned Dawn to Starfall.

4. He brought his 'bastard' home and raised him as his son.

It's sort of silly to say that a man can't be honorable unless the entire world knows about it when the man was only a second son of a Lord and barely noticed until his family was killed.

A war offers many chances to show how honourable a man is.

He must have earned his reputation after the first couple of battles, or before.

Then confirmed it with al you say.

[The Twinslayer]

If stealing a woman is the only ritual for joining two people that the Wildlings have, then it is marriage...just in a different form.

You are making the mistake of thinking the Wildlings care about titles like "marriage" or "bastard". They clearly don't. Tormund simply says the word "bastard" to prove a point- that bastards are not inferior to trueborn children.

But what does Mance call his woman? His wife. What does Mance say to Jon? "What was the name of that Wildling wife of yours?" So if you are going to nitpick at the semantics, there are other "semantics" that disprove your point, as well.

Basically, the Wildlings are more forward thinking in many ways and don't see marriage in the same rigid terms that those in the seven kingdoms do. But they still have their own ritual. And that counts as a form of marriage.

The wildlings worship the Old Gods. They know how to stand in front of a tree and get married, and that is different from stealing or bedding. And they understand bastardy.

Take Craster: "A bastard, is it?" Craster looked Jon up and down. "Man wants to bed a woman, seems like he ought to take her to wife. That's what I do."

Compare that to Tormund, who says that Jon stole Ygritte and that has nothing to do with wedding.

Or compare it to Bael. If Bael meant to marry his Stark mistress, why did he leave her behind as soon as the baby was born?

[Ser Creighton]

Actually it was a custom of the times, and rather scandelous that even a married noble couple share a bedroom with the exception of the smallfolk who might have only two rooms to exist in.

And yes, there is something to be said about "doing your thing" and then going to separate corners, and if you have pets on top of that, forget about a good nights sleep.

BQ might as well sleep on the floor because she would have a "baar" sleeping at the foot of her bed. :D

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.petsincondos.org%2Fcatmap.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.petsincondos.org%2Ffun.htm&h=311&w=450&tbnid=cH2n20d-4YdwXM%3A&zoom=1&docid=pERidvAggim1OM&ei=Rs-BVN2tC8amNpPVgcAF&tbm=isch&client=firefox-a&ved=0CD0QMygVMBU&iact=rc&uact=3&dur=1121&page=2&start=21&ndsp=27

Yeah I know that, and that idea was somewhat shared by 50's sitcoms, but is the idea consistent in the books? I know there was mention of room temperature. Cat needed it warm and Ned liked it cool. Cool is better it makes it easier to control blanket consistency. Like Rhaella had a separate room but that was a highly strained relationship. I think Tyrion and Sansa shared a room. I am actually trying to think of a good relationship in the books that gave some insight into Westrosi married life. Poole and Ram shared a room but I hardly can call that healthy. I am trying to think of healthy relationships in the series between men and women. It's just a curiosity. Like Rhaegar and Lyanna were mutually self destructive... I think. Elia and Rhaegar seemed to have a good relationship but also it ended in a giant kingdom wide hot mess. Lysa and anyone. Jon and Yiggy was based on a lie, so much dysfunction. Thank god they didn't have social media, can you imagine those tweets?

BQ and Baar? Please tell me that's a reference to a cat or dog, and not Mormont, cause that guy has issues. That scene in the whore house with the young girl from Lys? Obsessive and disturbing. Kidnapping Tyrion to try and get in her god graces, his entire obsession with young women in general. Dude get over your ex wife, it's been forever. Will she take me back, will she take me back. Oh pity party time. I love you so much but also, I am totally lying to you and a double agent and informant. He's a little scary realy. So I am sure it's not a reference to Pedo, obsessive, stalker, slaver, Mormont cause that would be bad and unhealthy for BQ.

BQ will gladly sleep on the floor for her "baaaaaar"

Oh BQ no, no, your better than that. You matter, you're a person, Mormont just thinks he's people. He's not, you can't save him. He's bad for you, do you need an intervention?

Oh and Alia, I know you have read the world book and probably looked of the AA stuff. Now here is something from and old R+L=J thread.

R+L+J 96, Posts 309 and 312 cause some people exist to be ahead of the curve. Meant to post his a few weeks ago but forgot. Bottom of 309 when I get into the Elric stuff.

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/115546-rlj-v96/page-16

It also contains a legendary post a bit later in which Arya ends up with Drogon and is the sword of the morning, and Jon cut off his penis. Arya also ended up being the catalyst or direct cause of the death of Sound (Sansa/Hound) I guess you could go with Sand as well, but killing Sound, sounds better? I think. I killed Sand? Yeah no ring to it. Just imagine a few months ago the thread was fun.

[finger]

How does this explain the KG being at the tower? If Aegon had truly been moved through there at least *one* of the KG would have gone with him. Why stay? If it was to slow down pursuit (even though no one knew of Aegon) then they could have sent at least one KG with Aegon. In reality all 3 would have gone with him.

Not if you're planning a deceit.

Put yourself in the scene. The war is lost, Targaryens' last supporters have yielded, and the last chance for Aegon is to run away. Shall a HG flee with him? Never, would you carry a sign reading "Aegon is here"? The KGs die with their secret and Aegon rests dead to the world.

[Ser Creighton]

I can only say what I said before: the Aegon-in-the-tower scenario basically thrives off the bits of Jon-is-the-king scenario because both interpret the ToJ scene as the KG guarding a king. Other than that, the text provides nothing to the accord that Aegon was ever smuggled from KL, regardless of by whom or how. Mere "it would have been logical for Rhaegar to want his PTWP safe" is not enough, I'm afraid as there is many a logical hypothetical scenario which simply never happened. All we have as a fact is that Aegon's body was maimed beyond recognition. We know that Varys is certainly able to smuggle someone from the Red Keep but that doesn't mean that he did, we know that Rhaegar was trying to appease Aerys' paranoia and not drive him even deeper into it, we know that Elia was in the nursery with Aegon and fought for his life. Compared to all the R+L hints which basically build it as the mystery, there is very little to base the speculations about Aegon on, which, IMHO, supports that he is not who he claims to be.

Well you know everyone associates the Blue Rose at the wall Dany saw as Aegon. I am sure of this right? I mean it's not like her chapters provide any insight into this matter. I still maintain Jon' mother is a cabbage, clearly Aegon is the truth not a lie, I mean he is a major POV. Ok well he is an after thought in some Tyrion chapters and and is a secondary character in JonCon' POV and he is a super major POV. Ok a minor POV, but also easily manipulated by Tyrion. Ok but Varys talked about him, and well I mean that makes Aegon intresting. Ok it's really Varys who is interesting. Ok Aegon had to be at the Tower, though Varys does not recall this. But he was in Dorne but the Martells clearly didn't care about him or want him. Cause Oberyn never obsessed about this. They must of thought, Varys and Illyrio that seems like a good idea.

Now when I say cabbage I really mean Wylla, because that was Neds nickname for her. I will skip on the reasons why. Now of course you know it was just an accident that Ned ran into Wylla at Starfall.

Ned: OMG Cabbage what are you doing here?

Wylla: I totally work here what are you doing here?

Ned: I just killed Arthur, so bringing his sword back to Ashara, not the head of house Dayne but her.

Wylla: Why her?

Ned: Though I would rub a little salt in the wound. You know tell her I am married now and she won't be getting the old Ned Stark northern exposure anymore. You know what I talking about right Cabbage? Right?

Wylla: It's not that big Ned.

Ned: What you said I was the best ever that it was huge.

Wylla: You're fair with a sword Ned but Ice isn't as big as you think it is.

Ned: Sour grapes Cabbage? Doesn't matter I am totally married now.

Wylla: Oh no, not that.

Ashara: Oh really, but you said you loved me?

Ned: Awkward. Yeah no, I totally meant it at the time.

Wylla/Ashara: At the time?

Wylla: You know I got a surprise for you.

Ned: Really I love surprises.

Wylla: Meet Jon your bastard son.

Ned: Oooooooooooooooh snap. Ok well I am like a totally rich lord and could easily set you up for the rest of your life. But give me Jon, because Cat is so going to love this.

Wylla: I don't think that's a good idea.

Ned: No she will totally love our bastard child, this will be great.

Ashara: You really are a bit of an idiot.

Ned: Hmmm come lets talk over here by the edge of the pale sword.

"Splash"

Wylla: OMG what happened

Ned: Gasp she slipped. Oh my dear sweet Alice.

Wylla: Ashara.

Ned: Whatever, give me the baby Cabbage.

Head of house Dayne: That Ned Stark is a great man lets name our first born son after him.

Makes perfect sense right, sure you just have to substitute comedy for logic, and make several unexplainable leaps, and apply supposition instead of facts. Totally works.

[teej6]

I can only say what I said before: the Aegon-in-the-tower scenario basically thrives off the bits of Jon-is-the-king scenario because both interpret the ToJ scene as the KG guarding a king. Other than that, the text provides nothing to the accord that Aegon was ever smuggled from KL, regardless of by whom or how. Mere "it would have been logical for Rhaegar to want his PTWP safe" is not enough, I'm afraid as there is many a logical hypothetical scenario which simply never happened. All we have as a fact is that Aegon's body was maimed beyond recognition. We know that Varys is certainly able to smuggle someone from the Red Keep but that doesn't mean that he did, we know that Rhaegar was trying to appease Aerys' paranoia and not drive him even deeper into it, we know that Elia was in the nursery with Aegon and fought for his life. Compared to all the R+L hints which basically build it as the mystery, there is very little to base the speculations about Aegon on, which, IMHO, supports that he is not who he claims to be.

Exactly. And in regards to Rhaegar wanting to keep his PTWP safe, the last interaction between Rhaegar and Jamie shows that Rhaegar was pretty confident of victory.

[JonSnow4President]

Well you know everyone associates the Blue Rose at the wall Dany saw as Aegon. I am sure of this right? I mean it's not like her chapters provide any insight into this matter. I still maintain Jon' mother is a cabbage, clearly Aegon is the truth not a lie, I mean he is a major POV. Ok well he is an after thought in some Tyrion chapters and and is a secondary character in JonCon' POV and he is a super major POV. Ok a minor POV, but also easily manipulated by Tyrion. Ok but Varys talked about him, and well I mean that makes Aegon intresting. Ok it's really Varys who is interesting. Ok Aegon had to be at the Tower, though Varys does not recall this. But he was in Dorne but the Martells clearly didn't care about him or want him. Cause Oberyn never obsessed about this. They must of thought, Varys and Illyrio that seems like a good idea.

Now when I say cabbage I really mean Wylla, because that was Neds nickname for her. I will skip on the reasons why. Now of course you know it was just an accident that Ned ran into Wylla at Starfall.

Ned: OMG Cabbage what are you doing here?

snip

Head of house Dayne: That Ned Stark is a great man lets name our first born son after him.

Makes perfect sense right, sure you just have to substitute comedy for logic, and make several unexplainable leaps, and apply supposition instead of facts. Totally works.

I believe the thread has been won.

[teej6]

Well you know everyone associates the Blue Rose at the wall Dany saw as Aegon. I am sure of this right? I mean it's not like her chapters provide any insight into this matter. I still maintain Jon' mother is a cabbage, clearly Aegon is the truth not a lie, I mean he is a major POV. Ok well he is an after thought in some Tyrion chapters and and is a secondary character in JonCon' POV and he is a super major POV. Ok a minor POV, but also easily manipulated by Tyrion. Ok but Varys talked about him, and well I mean that makes Aegon intresting. Ok it's really Varys who is interesting. Ok Aegon had to be at the Tower, though Varys does not recall this. But he was in Dorne but the Martells clearly didn't care about him or want him. Cause Oberyn never obsessed about this. They must of thought, Varys and Illyrio that seems like a good idea.

Now when I say cabbage I really mean Wylla, because that was Neds nickname for her. I will skip on the reasons why. Now of course you know it was just an accident that Ned ran into Wylla at Starfall.

Ned: OMG Cabbage what are you doing here?

Wylla: I totally work here what are you doing here?

Ned: I just killed Arthur, so bringing his sword back to Ashara, not the head of house Dayne but her.

Wylla: Why her?

Ned: Though I would rub a little salt in the wound. You know tell her I am married now and she won't be getting the old Ned Stark northern exposure anymore. You know what I talking about right Cabbage? Right?

Wylla: It's not that big Ned.

Ned: What you said I was the best ever that it was huge.

Wylla: You're fair with a sword Ned but Ice isn't as big as you think it is.

Ned: Sour grapes Cabbage? Doesn't matter I am totally married now.

Wylla: Oh no, not that.

Ashara: Oh really, but you said you loved me?

Ned: Awkward. Yeah no, I totally meant it at the time.

Wylla/Ashara: At the time?

Wylla: You know I got a surprise for you.

Ned: Really I love surprises.

Wylla: Meet Jon your bastard son.

Ned: Oooooooooooooooh snap. Ok well I am like a totally rich lord and could easily set you up for the rest of your life. But give me Jon, because Cat is so going to love this.

Wylla: I don't think that's a good idea.

Ned: No she will totally love our bastard child, this will be great.

Ashara: You really are a bit of an idiot.

Ned: Hmmm come lets talk over here by the edge of the pale sword.

"Splash"

Wylla: OMG what happened

Ned: Gasp she slipped. Oh my dear sweet Alice.

Wylla: Ashara.

Ned: Whatever, give me the baby Cabbage.

Head of house Dayne: That Ned Stark is a great man lets name our first born son after him.

Makes perfect sense right, sure you just have to substitute comedy for logic, and make several unexplainable leaps, and apply supposition instead of facts. Totally works.

What a riot. Thanks Ser Creighton for the hearty laugh.

[finger]

There's no evidence at all that points to Aegon having been at the ToJ. This is simply another "I want to buy your rock" argument...ie: saying something happened that has no evidence but can't be 'disproven' because of a gap in the information. The KG were already AT the ToJ before Aegon "supposedly" left KL, so it wasn't as if they were there to protect him. By this logic, I could say that the Cookie Monster was at the ToJ.

This is a novel, there are as many evidences as the author wants to be. But he leaves us clues.

We have KG three KG behaving in the most peculiar way. To start with, they stay for months of war in a remote tower, doing what? Guarding a girl? Or was she their prisonner? That's absurd.

I know, they guarded the heir, some say. What heir? Aerys was king, and Rhaegar was the heir. And there was no baby, either, only a bump.

We know where Rhaella, Viserys or Rhaenys were. That only leaves Aegon as the only reason for the KG to be there.

Is this enough "evidence" for you, under the circumstances?

[JonSnow4President]

This is a novel, there are as many evidences as the author wants to be. But he leaves us clues.

We have KG three KG behaving in the most peculiar way. To start with, they stay for months of war in a remote tower, doing what? Guarding a girl? Or was she their prisonner? That's absurd.

I know, they guarded the heir, some say. What heir? Aerys was king, and Rhaegar was the heir. And there was no baby, either, only a bump.

We know where Rhaella, Viserys or Rhaenys were. That only leaves Aegon as the only reason for the KG to be there.

Is this enough "evidence" for you, under the circumstances?

How the ever loving f*** are you forgetting about Rhaegar Targaryen, the heir to the throne (and fully capable of ordering KG, apparently).

The Jon is (potentially) King because of the presence of the kingsguard does not state that the KG never followed orders, or that guarding royalty was their reason for being at the ToJ in the first place. It states that the KG remained at the ToJ after learning about the deaths of Aerys, Rhaegar, and Aegon, and the flight of Viserys.

The argument is that the KG at that point should have sent at least one of their members to guard the new king, rather on continuing to blindly follow the orders of someone who was now dead. But they didn't. That leaves a few possibilities IMO.

1. Jon is born, when they find the news, and is by all rights the heir to Aerys' throne. No need for protect v obey.

2. Jon is not born when they hear the news, and they wait to see the gender of the child, since a boy would mean there is no need to choose between protect and obey.

3. Jon is not born when they hear the news, and they decide to send one to protect what might be the king. At this point, orders are still obeyed collectively, and the king, regardless of the outcome of the birth, will have KG protection.

4. Drop what they're doing and go protect their king, realizing dead uncle's orders have no impact on the protection status of the rightful king (Viserys).

In other words, the reason the KG are at the TOJ transitions from protecting Rhaegar, to following Rhaegar's orders, to protecting Jon. It is never exclusively about protecting the heir for the entire time they are away.

[BearQueen87]

Well you know everyone associates the Blue Rose at the wall Dany saw as Aegon. I am sure of this right? I mean it's not like her chapters provide any insight into this matter. I still maintain Jon' mother is a cabbage, clearly Aegon is the truth not a lie, I mean he is a major POV. Ok well he is an after thought in some Tyrion chapters and and is a secondary character in JonCon' POV and he is a super major POV. Ok a minor POV, but also easily manipulated by Tyrion. Ok but Varys talked about him, and well I mean that makes Aegon intresting. Ok it's really Varys who is interesting. Ok Aegon had to be at the Tower, though Varys does not recall this. But he was in Dorne but the Martells clearly didn't care about him or want him. Cause Oberyn never obsessed about this. They must of thought, Varys and Illyrio that seems like a good idea.

Now when I say cabbage I really mean Wylla, because that was Neds nickname for her. I will skip on the reasons why. Now of course you know it was just an accident that Ned ran into Wylla at Starfall.

Ned: OMG Cabbage what are you doing here?

Wylla: I totally work here what are you doing here?

Ned: I just killed Arthur, so bringing his sword back to Ashara, not the head of house Dayne but her.

Wylla: Why her?

Ned: Though I would rub a little salt in the wound. You know tell her I am married now and she won't be getting the old Ned Stark northern exposure anymore. You know what I talking about right Cabbage? Right?

Wylla: It's not that big Ned.

Ned: What you said I was the best ever that it was huge.

Wylla: You're fair with a sword Ned but Ice isn't as big as you think it is.

Ned: Sour grapes Cabbage? Doesn't matter I am totally married now.

Wylla: Oh no, not that.

Ashara: Oh really, but you said you loved me?

Ned: Awkward. Yeah no, I totally meant it at the time.

Wylla/Ashara: At the time?

Wylla: You know I got a surprise for you.

Ned: Really I love surprises.

Wylla: Meet Jon your bastard son.

Ned: Oooooooooooooooh snap. Ok well I am like a totally rich lord and could easily set you up for the rest of your life. But give me Jon, because Cat is so going to love this.

Wylla: I don't think that's a good idea.

Ned: No she will totally love our bastard child, this will be great.

Ashara: You really are a bit of an idiot.

Ned: Hmmm come lets talk over here by the edge of the pale sword.

"Splash"

Wylla: OMG what happened

Ned: Gasp she slipped. Oh my dear sweet Alice.

Wylla: Ashara.

Ned: Whatever, give me the baby Cabbage.

Head of house Dayne: That Ned Stark is a great man lets name our first born son after him.

Makes perfect sense right, sure you just have to substitute comedy for logic, and make several unexplainable leaps, and apply supposition instead of facts. Totally works.

Ser Creighton story time is my favorite time.

[SFDanny]

I can only say what I said before: the Aegon-in-the-tower scenario basically thrives off the bits of Jon-is-the-king scenario because both interpret the ToJ scene as the KG guarding a king. Other than that, the text provides nothing to the accord that Aegon was ever smuggled from KL, regardless of by whom or how. Mere "it would have been logical for Rhaegar to want his PTWP safe" is not enough, I'm afraid as there is many a logical hypothetical scenario which simply never happened. All we have as a fact is that Aegon's body was maimed beyond recognition. We know that Varys is certainly able to smuggle someone from the Red Keep but that doesn't mean that he did, we know that Rhaegar was trying to appease Aerys' paranoia and not drive him even deeper into it, we know that Elia was in the nursery with Aegon and fought for his life. Compared to all the R+L hints which basically build it as the mystery, there is very little to base the speculations about Aegon on, which, IMHO, supports that he is not who he claims to be.

Ygrain, thanks for the response. I respect your opinion as a long time thoughtful contributor to these threads, but on this we disagree. While it is true that the response of the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy supports both possibilities of either Jon as the King, or Aegon as the King they are protecting, it is absolutely false that there is nothing in the text about Aegon being smuggled from King's Landing. The entire Young Griff story line is based on this assumption. Young Griff tells us he was smuggled out with the help of Varys and through the use of a double that Varys provides through the bribe of Arbor Gold. The question before all of us is to shift through this evidence, these clues, and try to make some judgement on whether any of it is true. I've tried to give my view that there are significant problems with Young Griff's story - significantly around the involvement of Varys and what would be his motivation to help Rhaegar and/or Elia to smuggle Aegon out of Aerys's control. But regardless if you agree with my view on Varys's role, it just isn't true there is no evidence Aegon is still alive and was smuggled out. I think much of it is a red herring, but to dismiss it as no evidence or that there is "nothing in the text" to support this is just turning a blind eye to what is in the text. There is a lot in the text to support the idea that Young Griff is who he says he is, red herring or no.