What did Brandon think?

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Don't forget Lord Lyonel Baratheon against Ser Duncan the Tall of the KG in the place of Crown Prince Duncan the Small. It's basically the very same situation and still living memory.

That's what Brandon (and Rickard) can reasonably expect to happen.

From someone of Aegon V's format, yes. Also, old friendship between the Laughing Storm and Egg (and his LC) could assure the former that whatever went down, up to and including killing, would happened in a reasonably honorable fashion, not treacherous murder Aerys-style (or Tywin-style, or Frey-style...).

Moreover, Lord Lyonel didn't go full Brandon. He called his banners, stayed in the middle of his power base, and showed his middle finger to the Iron Throne from there. The rest, including arranging the duel, was accomplished via diplomacy, I assume. And that's what Rhaegar could reasonably expect to happen.

[ShadowCat Rivers]

Threatening the crown prince with death - "come out and die" - is high treason at any time. It's particularly stupid when the ruling monarch isn't considered sane. It's possible that Brandon was oblivious to Aerys' appearance at behaviour at Harrenhal, but I doubt that even if he didn't notice him first hand that it wasn't talked about.

I'd say that Rhaegar (and Lyanna, if she went willingly) didn't expect Brandon to be that rash, rather than not being aware that Aerys would execute anyone that walked into the court yelling as Brandon did.

Again,

a.) how is a challenge to single combat equated to a threat with death and b.) where is it stated that said challenge is high treason.

(but I agree it is a stupid course of action when you deal with batshit Aerys)

As for the second: Lyanna, if she went willingly, should expect exactly that if had the slightest idea about her brother (and I suppose that she did). After all, this is not too different from what she did at Harrenhal. As for Rhaegar, if he did think at all before kidnapping/elopping with Lyanna, then he should have taken the possibility into consideration. Furthermore,

Moreover, Lord Lyonel didn't go full Brandon. He called his banners, stayed in the middle of his power base, and showed his middle finger to the Iron Throne from there. The rest, including arranging the duel, was accomplished via diplomacy, I assume. And that's what Rhaegar could reasonably expect to happen.

While I believe that ^this is what the Starks should have done, this is high treason, unlike what Brandon actually did, that is addressing his king to see to the matter, even if it's done in an unpropper manner.

If Rhaegar expected open rebellion, as you propose, then the kidnapping/seduction takes a whole different meaning - one may even propose that it was a deliberately provocative move in order to destabilize the realm and overthrow his father.

(Though it would be stupid, IMO, and I don't think this was Rhaegar's motive but you get the idea - if *real* treason was the expected outcome, then Rhaegar's actions become a hell more obscure.)

[Mal Malenkirk]

The entire kingdom took Rickard's death sitting down so far as we know.

No, there was a rebellion.

The news of Rickard's execution and the news of further demands for Ned and Robert's head would have reached everyone simultaneously, so I don't see why we should assume that this news played no role and the rebellion was just about defending Eddard and Robert.

Different people have different breaking point, it's hard to gauge what it was for whom.

Personally, I bet Robert's breaking point was right from the start and he would have immediately done something just as stupid as Brandon if he hadn't been with Jon when he learned the news and that it's Jon who restrained him and asked him to wait for Rickard to talk to Aerys, like a responsible father figure would toward a (ex) Ward. It's just a guess but it fits the character. When Rickard died, he was good to go even without the threat on his life as additional motivation, IMO. Whatever one might think about the quality of his love for Lyanna, the quality of his hatred for Rhaegar can't be doubted. His memories and actions are not those of someone who purposefully seeked out Rhaegar on the battlefield at the Trident out of self preservation... He really wanted him dead.

If Eddard is anything like his son Robb, he would likely have raised his banners on the ground his brother and especially his father were senselessly executed. It's dinsingenuous to argue he fought only to protect his life, he would have received the news of his father death and the news of his ordered arrest at the same time, IMO, and the first news would likely have been enough to get him to rebel, just like it was enough justification for Robb.

As for Jon Arryn, I feel he wouldn't have let Eddard and Robert go to war alone either way so if they had declared war on the ground of Rickard's execution alone, he'd have followed suit.

And Hoster would have negotiated the same way. And the Martells and the Tyrells would have provided the same half assed effort. And Tywin would have sat on the side line the same way.

If one assumes that the other LPs were willing to let the summary and unfair execution of one of their peer slide, why would you assume they were moved by the subsequent demands for the head of his heir and the least of their peer? Robert and Eddard were just too pretty to die? Rickard, sure, but Eddard and Robert, noooo!!! What's the difference?

I think the rubicon was crossed with Rickard's execution alone. The fact that this news was sandwhiched with demands for additional, lesser heads, was just more of the same.

[Mal Malenkirk]

Moreover, Lord Lyonel didn't go full Brandon. He called his banners, stayed in the middle of his power base, and showed his middle finger to the Iron Throne from there.

Yeah, that is a lot worse than what Brandon did. (Smarter too)

Most kings would prefer to have someone angrily challenge their son to personal combat than see a major vassal raise his banner in defiance.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

While I believe that ^this is what the Starks should have done, this is high treason, unlike what Brandon actually did, that is addressing his king to see to the matter, even if it's done in an unpropper manner.

If Rhaegar expected open rebellion, as you propose, then the kidnapping/seduction takes a whole different meaning - one may even propose that it was a deliberately provocative move in order to destabilize the realm and overthrow his father.

(Though it would be stupid, IMO, and I don't think this was Rhaegar's motive but you get the idea - if *real* treason was the expected outcome, then Rhaegar's actions become a hell more obscure.)

See, there's a very fine line "unproper manner" and outright treason, and it's the boss who decides what constitutes treason anyway. See the confrontation between Greatjon Umber and Robb Stark. Lord Umber unsheathing the sword was likely just an exaggerated, theatrical gesture - but Robb could have his head, literally, for that.

Was Rhaegar actually anticipating a rebellion? Dunno. I'm betting the one thing they were banking on was Rickard, not Brandon, making the decision. And Rickard looks rather like a diplomatic solution kind of guy to me.

[Mal Malenkirk]

Was Rhaegar actually anticipating a rebellion? Dunno. I'm betting the one thing they were banking on was Rickard, not Brandon, making the decision. And Rickard looks rather like a diplomatic solution kind of guy to me.

How about Aerys? Did Rhaegar bank on Aerys being involved? And being a diplomatic kind of guy?

If Rhaegar banked on a diplomatic solution, he should have sent an emissary to Rickard right from the start, so that the dialogue starts on his terms. If he just gambled that his mad paranoid father, who was in the dark about his intentions and by this point hostile to him, would discuss calmly with Rickard and that no hothead would intervene, then Rhaegar wins the stupidity championship of the rebellion despite facing Brandon's stiff competition.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

How about Aerys? Did Rhaegar bank on Aerys being involved? And being a diplomatic kind of guy?

If Rhaegar banked on a diplomatic solution, he should have sent an emissary to Rickard right from the start, so that the dialogue starts on his terms.

And we're coming back to the original point. You're claiming that he didn't. I, on the other hand, believe that a message was passed and the Starks knew exactly what went down. Unfortunately, Brandon was closer and unfortunately, Brandon against advise decided to act without waiting for his father.

[Ygrain]

Again,

a.) how is a challenge to single combat equated to a threat with death and b.) where is it stated that said challenge is high treason.

(but I agree it is a stupid course of action when you deal with batshit Aerys)

As for the second: Lyanna, if she went willingly, should expect exactly that if had the slightest idea about her brother (and I suppose that she did). After all, this is not too different from what she did at Harrenhal. As for Rhaegar, if he did think at all before kidnapping/elopping with Lyanna, then he should have taken the possibility into consideration. Furthermore,

While I believe that ^this is what the Starks should have done, this is high treason, unlike what Brandon actually did, that is addressing his king to see to the matter, even if it's done in an unpropper manner.

If Rhaegar expected open rebellion, as you propose, then the kidnapping/seduction takes a whole different meaning - one may even propose that it was a deliberately provocative move in order to destabilize the realm and overthrow his father.

(Though it would be stupid, IMO, and I don't think this was Rhaegar's motive but you get the idea - if *real* treason was the expected outcome, then Rhaegar's actions become a hell more obscure.)

a) Is that a serious question? People can and do get killed in a duel, we have seen this time and again

b) Trying to get a Crown Prince indulge in an activity that can get him killed by your hand sounds much like treason to me and it is a universal line of thinking of any monarch, sane or not

If Lyanna should have expected Brandon to come after her, then I'd much like to hear your explanation why Brandon went to KL when Rhaegar's residence was Dragonstone and he was not on good terms with his father. Because Brandon going to KL and challenging a person who was not there, did not have a permanent residence there and not being on good terms with his family there is something that could NOT be reasonably expected.

[Mal Malenkirk]

And we're coming back to the original point. You're claiming that he didn't. I, on the other hand, believe that a message was passed and the Starks knew exactly what went down. Unfortunately, Brandon was closer and unfortunately, Brandon against advise decided to act without waiting for his father.

What indication do we have that a message was sent? I see none.

And seriously, what good would a message do? You need to use an emissary with the power to negotiate in your name and the ability to reach you back with terms. A message... why not a post-it on the fridge?

[Mal Malenkirk]

If Lyanna should have expected Brandon to come after her, then I'd much like to hear your explanation why Brandon went to KL when Rhaegar's residence was Dragonstone and he was not on good terms with his father. Because Brandon going to KL and challenging a person who was not there, did not have a permanent residence there and not being on good terms with his family there is something that could NOT be reasonably expected.

We know that Rhaegar set out in the Riverland with a party of 6 and that after meeting Lyanna, most of those then went on to King's Landing. It's likely Brandon was following them, erroneously believeing Rhaegar was part of that party.

As an aside; isn't it bizarre, if you are escorting a lady, to send most of your men back to King's Landing and undertake a long journey on the road with little protection?

I am asking because if it turns out that Rhaegar purposefully used a decoy to send pursuit toward King's Landing, than yes, he could reasonably expect that an awkward confrontation between his father and whoever followed was a potential risk.

[Ygrain]

I am asking because if it turns out that Rhaegar purposefully used a decoy to send pursuit toward King's Landing, than yes, he could reasonably expect that an awkward confrontation between his father and whoever followed was a potential risk.

And the next reasonable line of thought is that when the person arrives, he will bother asking if Rhaegar and Lyanna are indeed there, which somehow seems to be missing from Brandon's reasoning.

[Ser Cold Fingers]

And the next reasonable line of thought is that when the person arrives, he will bother asking if Rhaegar and Lyanna are indeed there, which somehow seems to be missing from Brandon's reasoning.

Heat of the Moment? "wolf blood" impairing his judgement?

[A spoon of knife and fork]

I think you have a good point OP. I especially like your argument about appealing to the throne being a better option if in fact rape was suspected. Particularly in this case, because we know that Aerys was suspicious of his son (and for good reason given Rhaegar was planning to depose him).

Likely, if Aerys could find a legal excuse to get Rhaegar sent to the wall, he'd have jumped at it. However knowing that Lyanna did go willingly, Brandon would have known that legal recourse was impossible. So, he called for Rhaegars head instead. This was indeed stupid, anyway, but not quite AS stupid as it would have been had Brandon believed Rhaegar really had raped Lyanna.

[Ygrain]

Heat of the Moment? "wolf blood" impairing his judgement?

I might believe that if he hadn't ridden for days to reach KL and hadn't had entourage with him who could - and should - have poured a bucket of cold water on his head.

[Ser Cold Fingers]

I might believe that if he hadn't ridden for days to reach KL and hadn't had entourage with him who could - and should - have poured a bucket of cold water on his head.

True...I actually took your question as rhetorical at this point in the story but tried to answer it anyways.

It was a dumb move, not thought out at all, and doesn't make much sense storywise.

When did we learn that Brandon died in KL? Was it early in AGoT? I often wondered if GRRM wrote the KL part early, realized the slight issue with it but said to himself "too late to change it now".

[Mal Malenkirk]

I might believe that if he hadn't ridden for days to reach KL and hadn't had entourage with him who could - and should - have poured a bucket of cold water on his head.

I don't follow;

You won't believe he could have believed Rhaegar was there and that his entourage could have failed to restrain him so what do you believe? Why did he shout (foolishly, agreed) for Rhaegar?

Did he purposefully martyr himself to undermine the Targaryens?

Likely, if Aerys could find a legal excuse to get Rhaegar sent to the wall, he'd have jumped at it. However knowing that Lyanna did go willingly, Brandon would have known that legal recourse was impossible. So, he called for Rhaegars head instead. This was indeed stupid, anyway, but not quite AS stupid as it would have been had Brandon believed Rhaegar really had raped Lyanna.

Rape in medieval term is pretty much 'Penetration of a woman without consent of the husband or father'. It would make little enough difference to a 'legal' strategy, should one be pursued.

I don't know how hard it can be to accept that 'wolf blood' Brandon was simply hot headed enough to shout a clumsily worded challenge to the crown Prince.

[DarkSister1001]

I might believe that if he hadn't ridden for days to reach KL and hadn't had entourage with him who could - and should - have poured a bucket of cold water on his head.

I respectfully disagree. Stubborn and hot headed can go a LONG way before rationale coming into play. His peeps also may have had a hard time saying no to the heir of WF.

Look at Robert. He was all for assassinating Dany. IIRC they first discussed it on the Kings Road and then again in KL. It was a hot tempered reaction and his slow trip to KL didn't sway him. Even after Ned argued with him twice about it and resigned. Only when he was on his deathbed did he change his mind but by then it was too late and the wheels were in motion.

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

What indication do we have that a message was sent? I see none.

Sigh. I explained my point in the original post of this thread. Not that hard to find.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

True...I actually took your question as rhetorical at this point in the story but tried to answer it anyways.

It was a dumb move, not thought out at all, and doesn't make much sense storywise.

When did we learn that Brandon died in KL? Was it early in AGoT? I often wondered if GRRM wrote the KL part early, realized the slight issue with it but said to himself "too late to change it now".

We find out in aGoT but Jaime says the whole story to Cat in Clash.

In aGoT, Cat says that Brandon actually left somewhere else and promised to return. It was never said where. Kinda odd that she just mentioned that.

[GoldHandTheGood]

I don't think a lot of forethought or logic entered into his decision making, but if you wish to believe that he had other motives, consider this:

A ) Some poncy older man lusts after your 16 year old sister, flirting shamelessly with her at a festival, despite his wife being right there. Then later, he swoops down on her and abducts her in order to rape her.

B ) Some poncy older man lusts after your 16 year old sister, flirting shamelessly with her at a festival, despite his wife being right there. Then later, she is somehow convinced to somehow allow this charming creep to live out his mid-life crisis by acting as her "sugar daddy".

The result is the same both ways: Rhaegar is creeping on your innocent underage sister, and there's no way this can end well for her if you don't cut him out of her life.

As for the "but he is the Crown Prince" argument - that amount of wealth and power does nothing to alter the right or wrong of it.

Ok first, remember the context here; this world, is largely based off real world medieval society. Her being innocent and underage at 16 is altogether a modern concept. Brandon would have still been pissed if she'd been twenty eight, he's a hot-headed older brother, of course he's gonna be protective. It has very little to do with her age.

And I think people only mention the "Crown Prince" thing to explain how Brandon's actions were incredibly idiotic. You don't threaten the King's heir and expect to get off lightly, without having an army at your back. Nobody said what Rhaegar did was right; just that what Brandon did was stupid.