Tywin, not such a bad guy afterall?

[John Doe]

Yeah I'd guess the point of that is not to be hated by the wrong people. I am pretty sure some of the stuff Machiavelli suggests in that little book of his would make at least some both fear and hate the Prince. As long as the hating doesn't count I don't see how it matters. Those who you injure might hate you but the rest will fear you, and Tywin has been doing a pretty good job of annihilating everyone who he injures gravely.

"So a prince must not worry if he incurs reproach for his cruelty so long as he keeps his subjects united and loyal".

If one actually reads the part where Machiavelli speaks of love vs. hate and pretty much condones of Cesario Borgia's actions, you can see that Tywin would fit that model pretty well too. Murdering a couple to appease the majority would sit well with Machiavelli, I'd reckon :P

Machiavelli mentions two examples for a Prince to become hated, one is killing people for no good reason, and the other even more important one is seizing their property. So I am not sure who here has reading comprehension problems, the whole part about fear vs. love is like two pages out of a tiny tiny booklet.

Agreed. I think there is a passage where Machiavelli says that an enemy should be defeated in a manner that doesn't give him the possibility to strike back, and Tywin pretty much always did that when he had to.

[David Selig]

Who hates the Lannisters apart from the dornish?

The guy who murdered Tywin, for one. Even though he is a Lannister himself, Great job, Daddy.

[Humble Maester]

The guy who murdered Tywin, for one. Even though he is a Lannister himself, Great job, Daddy.

Well I am first to admit, as I already have multiple times, that Tywin really screwed up the Tysha case. Though I think part of it is Tyrion being an idiot too. If he had done as Tywin asked and not brought a whore to court and just acted as master of coin he might had been a lot better off. But he had his daddy issues and now he is raping around Essos for it.

To be fair the fact that Tywin made his son first the temporary Hand and later Master of Coin meant that he did value that son a lot, even considering his outright whoring and being a dwarfing.

[marsyao]

Regardless of what I read in ASOIAF I'm still pissed at Tywin for Tysha. That was all kinds of effed up.

Tywin would have wonder why would you care that lowborn nobody so much? And remind me her name again?

[marsyao]

Some fans defend Tywin unleashing the Mountain on the Riverlands for utilitarian reasons, but tell me something:

What did send the Mountain to rape people collaborated in having Tyrion released? In what way the story of Tyrion's release would have been different if Tywin had not unleashed his monsters? The only answer is that it accomplished nothing and influenced nothing.

It is hard to explain to people live in the modern society about the mindset of a Medieval Lord, what Tywin did was a punishment for taking his son prisoner, of course smallfolks of River land had nothing to do with Tyrion's abduction, but their Lord's daughter did it, so they ought to be pnunished because of guilty of association, and because Tywin needed to make a strong statement, so tough luck! Yes, it would not help Tyrion's release, but it would not put Tyrion in danger either, come on! No Lords would do harm to Tyrion because of suffering of some nameless, meaningless and count for nothing smallfolks.

And what would happen if Robert hadn't died? Then Tywin would at best be in serious trouble with the Warden of the North AND Hand of the King AND The king's best friend AND father of the future queen AND uncle by marriage of the LP of the Vale and brother in law of his mother and regent AND who also happened to be an extremely popular figure among the lords of the Vale AND Son-in-Law of the LP of the Riverlands, who would ALSO be mad at him as well. At worse he would be beheaded (and all that ignoring the incest).

Why he should be the one worried? Starks were in the wrong, first they took Tyrion for some ridiculous accusation (Tywin did not know what happened to Bran) second Ned not only was the one start the hostility, he also had the guts to abused to his power as King's hand and try to punish Tywin and his bannermen, how could someone who belonged to one side of a war use the royal power against his enemy in that war? Hence Tywin had a very good case here.

[C.T. Phipps]

Machiavelli mentions two examples for a Prince to become hated, one is killing people for no good reason, and the other even more important one is seizing their property. So I am not sure who here has reading comprehension problems, the whole part about fear vs. love is like two pages out of a tiny tiny booklet.

The thing regarding the property issue is one I always liked because it's a discussion of, "How do I get people to not hate me for generations." In this respect, Machiavelli said the surest way to create a generational feud is not to kill someone's parents. Which, while awful, isn't something that will automatically mean they'll hunt you and your family but to steal their property and leave them seething at this loss. Which you see in Westeros all the time as people talk about losing Coldmoat or the Riverlands or whatever CENTURIES later.

Who hates the Lannisters apart from the dornish? The scattered Starks who don't rule the North anymore? The scattered Targs who don't rule the seven kingdoms anymore? The dornish, who are too far away from the Westerlands to matter much?

Amongst other things, he ends up getting Tyrion to hate him.

But the Dornes, Starks, and Targs are pretty much EXACTLY what Machiavelli means when he's talking about being wary of taking people's property away. Because people who appear impoverished and broken by taking away their wealth are usually at their most dangerous. Historically, when you kick out Duke X and his son Prince Y from territory, they don't have their armies or lands anymore. So they go to relatives or allies for help taking them back. Feudalism pretty much guarantees everyone is going to have a cousin, brother, or in-law with an army.

And THEN **** gets ****ed up royal.

The Starks, Targs, and Dornes have plenty of allies and two have very little to lose.

[John Doe]

But the Dornes, Starks, and Targs are pretty much EXACTLY what Machiavelli means when he's talking about being wary of taking people's property away. Because people who appear impoverished and broken by taking away their wealth are usually at their most dangerous. Historically, when you kick out Duke X and his son Prince Y from territory, they don't have their armies or lands anymore. So they go to relatives or allies for help taking them back. Feudalism pretty much guarantees everyone is going to have a cousin, brother, or in-law with an army.

And THEN **** gets ****ed up royal.

The Starks, Targs, and Dornes have plenty of allies and two have very little to lose.

From Tywin's perspective all Starks but Sansa are probably dead, and she was his tool. The Targ girl- the last surviving Targ- is far away somewhere in Slaver's Bay, and the Dornish are pretty isolated. Look how upset Mace Tyrell was when a small company of dornish crossed his lands without his permission, they would never allow a dornish army to march through the Reach.

I agree that maybe he traded long- term benefits for short- term, but nearly all of this only bights his family back because of factors he couldn't possibly consider: Daenerys finding dragons, Varys- ex- machina, JonCon and his GC backing Aegon who was supposedly dead (he might in fact be), and the Stark children still being alive (imagine iif they hadn't found Osha, they would probably be dead by now).

[Acnologia Targaryen]

of course he was he was dick with daddy issues a shame his grandma didn't live to see him. Still i'm shocked he didn't kill aerys sooner though jesus i'm ashamed to think they were such good friends.

[Ramsay Gimp]

The Starks, Targs, and Dornes have plenty of allies and two have very little to lose.

The Starks are not Tywin's enemies because of anything he did. Have we forgotten the entire plot of AGOT? Ned, Catelyn, Jaime and Cersei started that feud, with a lot of help from LF. Tywin was just reacting to events outside his control.

People don't like to hear that Tywin's invasion of the Riverlands was a (brutal, horrific) pre-emptive strike, or self-defense, but it was. The Starks were coming for his family no matter what, as were Robert's brothers. Ned publicly denounced Cersei and her children and tried to have them deposed. There was no going back from that

Oh, but what about the Red Wedding you say? Name me one person that hates the Lannisters because of the that massacre, who didn't already hate them before. What new enemies did he make? The Blackfish? Catelyn Stark? The Northern lords? All of them already wanted him dead, Red Wedding or no. People like to act like the Red Wedding was some big strategic mistake on Tywin's part, which is nonsense. He would have been stupid not to go through with it.

[C.T. Phipps]

The Starks are not Tywin's enemies because of anything he did. Have we forgotten the entire plot of AGOT? Ned, Catelyn, Jaime and Cersei started that feud, with a lot of help from LF. Tywin was just reacting to events outside his control.

All leaders react to events outside their control, that makes them leaders.

[Humble Maester]

All leaders react to events outside their control, that makes them leaders.

And which part of his reaction was not good? He pretty much has the riverlords neutralized. He did what he could with what he had and what he knew.

[Jojen Weed]

Who hates the Lannisters apart from the dornish? The scattered Starks who don't rule the North anymore? The scattered Targs who don't rule the seven kingdoms anymore? The dornish, who are too far away from the Westerlands to matter much?

The Riverlands, The Vale, Stannis, fAegon who just took Storm's End, the Tyrells after the imprisionment of Margaery, everyone hates the Lannisters, as of ADwD they are alone.

[John Doe]

And what of this is Tywin's fault? The Vale hates the Lannisters because of false accusations, Stannis hates everyone who doesn't support his claim and doesn't have special hatred for the Lannisters, Aegon is a Targaryen and already included in my list, the Tyrells worked well with Tywin and for all we know didn't hate him..

And again:

I agree that maybe he traded long- term benefits for short- term, but all of this only bights his family back because of factors he couldn't possibly consider: Daenerys finding dragons, Varys- ex- machina, JonCon and his GC backing Aegon who was supposedly dead (he might in fact be), and the Stark children still being alive (imagine iif they hadn't found Osha, they would probably be dead by now).

[Ramsay Gimp]

Even Tyrion in ADWD mentions that Tywin had built alliances, and Cersei was destroying them

[marsyao]

The Riverlands, The Vale, Stannis, fAegon who just took Storm's End, the Tyrells after the imprisionment of Margaery, everyone hates the Lannisters, as of ADwD they are alone.

why the vale hate Lannisters? Tywin did them nothing wrong, And Tyrells are Tywin's major ally, if he were still alive, nothing would happen to Margaery

[The Wolves]

why the vale hate Lannisters? Tywin did them nothing wrong, And Tyrells are Tywin's major ally, if he were still alive, nothing would happen to Margaery

I think the Valemen thinks that the Lannisters had something to do with Jon Arryn's death.

[Humble Maester]

I think the Valemen thinks that the Lannisters had something to do with Jon Arryn's death.

I guess the question here is whether we are talking about Tywin or someone else. We all know Lannisters had very little to do with Jon Arryn's death, and even if they did it'd hardly be Tywin who's been residing as lord of Casterly Rock.

In the end I don't really think at the start of GoT there are that many who hate Tywin. Dorne does but Dorne does seem rather irrelevant. Targaryens do but they are literally two children. Ned has some disdain for how Tywin handled the situation with Rhaegar's children but I'd hardly call it hate. Funnily enough when Catelyn and Robb are talking about Elia's children related to Robb's "rebellion" against the Iron Throne they are showing much more fear than hate, which going back the Machiavelli would actually had made Tywin's actions prudent.

Tywin pretty much just had to since the start of the WotFK till his death fix the mess his children and grandchild were creating. And considering the odds he did rather ok (though of course a lot of luck involved, if Stannis had not made sure Renly is out of the picture Tywin would in all likelihood been screwed).