Tywin, not such a bad guy afterall?

[teemo]

So, leaving off from the last thread, sort of, did reading TWOIAF change your view of Tywin? There are several events about him that are controversial, some say his decision making is just and efficient, others say cruel and needless. Here are some major topics of Tywin:

1) The extermination of House Tarbeck and Reyne. We discovered the Reyne's were sealed in their mines and drowned to death even after offering up terms, but they had made a mockery of his family with their behavior. Was this is an efficient way to quickly end an otherwise bloody battle with rebels, or just a unreasonable show of force that was inhumane?

2) The sack of King's Landing

3) The Red Wedding (although not in TWOAIF but still a big strategic move in his lifetime)

Other notable events: the event with Tysha and Tyrion, what he did to his father's mistress, the way he treats Tyrion. On the other hand, Tywin brought honor and respect back to his house after his father had essentially humiliated it with his foolish and indecisive behavior. Were Tywin's actions smart and necessary or brutal and sociopathic?

[Humble Maester]

Personally the only thing I can't really agree with what Tywin did was the whole Tysha issue, which could had been handled in much better ways (as came up in a topic that touched that subject).
Otherwise, I guess I am just more impressed at what kind of a Machiavellian devil Tywin is. Really deserved his reputation, in good and in bad.

[C.T. Phipps]

I think Tywin started fairly reasonable and got worse as the years went on.

I can't get up in arms about the Rains of Castamere, though.

It was a brilliant unorthodox strategy and the Reynes brought it upon themselves.

What did the Reynes THINK would happen if they lost the war?

Oh right, they thought they'd win.

Never go to war unless you're prepared to lose your lives.

[The Wolves]

He's a monster always have been many of his victims did not deserve their fates.

Elia and her children didn't deserve Gregor or Amory I don't care that Robert had proclaimed himself king that was needless evil brutality and I don't understand how anyone could justify the murder of babies for a throne.

Tywin is a very evil person.

[Lion of the West]

He's a monster always have been many of his victims did not deserve their fates.

Elia and her children didn't deserve Gregor or Amory I don't care that Robert had proclaimed himself king that was needless evil brutality and I don't understand how anyone could justify the murder of babies for a throne.

Tywin is a very evil person.

The same way that the Starks have justified, say the Rape of the Sisters, human sacrifices of their own extermination of rival Houses in the North?

Tywin is a human, I can still assure you, and he is not evil but highly adapted to feudal politics.

[The Wolves]

The same way that the Starks have justified, say the Rape of the Sisters, human sacrifices of their own extermination of rival Houses in the North?

Tywin is a human, I can still assure you, and he is not evil but highly adapted to feudal politics.

What does the Starks have to do with Tywin unleashing a 7ft plus tall monster on a fragile innocent woman and her baby? I'm talking about one man and the destruction he's dealt out to innocent people.

I don't defend the ancient Starks never have, and okay so what Tywin is human, humans can be evil and monsters. Assure all you want nothing will ever change my opinion that Tywin is evi.

[C.T. Phipps]

What does the Starks have to do with Tywin unleashing a 7ft plus tall monster on a fragile innocent woman and her baby? I'm talking about one man and the destruction he's dealt out to innocent people.

Tywin's misogyny is horrific and using the Mountain is pointless save that he has this weird idea that terrorism and cruelty make things better than worse. Still, you could understand Tywin killing the Targaryen heirs.

Horrific as that is.

Understand, even if not condone.

The thing is, of course, Tywin seems blind to people reacting badly to these things which is a sign of mental illness I think. He doesn't get Oberyn and his family will hold everlasting hatred for the deaths of their family because he thinks of his family as tools.

[Tiggy4Real]

Tywin is a horrible man. I would have atleast given the Reynes one tunnel to get out of ... Then cut off the head of any of the family members. Also, that seems like a waste of a good castle. Most of it was underground? I would waited fiver years then reopened the tunnels and done some renovating. There's also the possibility of their still being gold in those mines

[The hairy bear]

some say his decision making is (...) efficient, others say cruel and needless.

Those two are not mutually exclusive. And Tywin is both: he's very effective, and do not care about anything or anyone who stands (willingly or not) between him and his goals. On that, In think we all can agree.

So the point of discussion is whether you believe that his goals merited the extreme measures that he used. In my opinion, the answer is no. Thus, I utterly despise him.

[springchild]

Reading about Tywin in TWOIAF definitely gave me a better understanding of him and what he did to the Reynes and Tarbecks. I still believe it was a bit over-the-top to completely annihilate these families, but I can understand his thinking. That said, he is a very vicious person who in the end got his "poetic justice"... No way can I absolve him of so many needless tyrannical acts done by his own hands or by others under his command. So yes he's EVIL...but there's good in everyone, even Tywin lannister.

[Lion of the West]

What does the Starks have to do with Tywin unleashing a 7ft plus tall monster on a fragile innocent woman and her baby? I'm talking about one man and the destruction he's dealt out to innocent people.

I don't defend the ancient Starks never have, and okay so what Tywin is human, humans can be evil and monsters. Assure all you want nothing will ever change my opinion that Tywin is evi.

It has to do with understanding what is normal and in which social and cultural context that Tywin lives and has moulded him. No person exists as an island and thus Tywin is very much part of the product of the same Westerosi culture that produced people like Arthur Dayne or Jon Arryn. What I am trying to say is that his actions should be understood within the nature of his world, not primarily within ours.

Ok, that's good. Maybe it has changed but I remember people going after Tywin for things the Starks has done themselves.

You can think that Tywin is evil if you want to, but he remains a human. That was the point I wanted to make and is why I reject applications of "monster" or "animal" to persons that people dislike.

And in regards to Tywin being evil we won't reach common ground but I'm fine with my view and that you have yours.

[C.T. Phipps]

Tywin is a horrible man. I would have atleast given the Reynes one tunnel to get out of ... Then cut off the head of any of the family members. Also, that seems like a waste of a good castle. Most of it was underground? I would waited fiver years then reopened the tunnels and done some renovating. There's also the possibility of their still being gold in those mines

Possibly, but I mark this as one of Tywin's least actions.

As nasty a person as Tywin is, the Reynes were both stupid and evil.

They're the Freys of the Westerlands.

[MissMatchedEyes]

Regardless of what I read in ASOIAF I'm still pissed at Tywin for Tysha. That was all kinds of effed up.

[John Doe]

He's a monster always have been many of his victims did not deserve their fates.

Elia and her children didn't deserve Gregor or Amory I don't care that Robert had proclaimed himself king that was needless evil brutality and I don't understand how anyone could justify the murder of babies for a throne.

Tywin is a very evil person.

Like Ned Stark this evil monster. He wanted to go to war for his honor and was willing to sell his own daughter for an alliance.

A really bad person.

[John Doe]

Tywin's misogyny is horrific and using the Mountain is pointless save that he has this weird idea that terrorism and cruelty make things better than worse. Still, you could understand Tywin killing the Targaryen heirs.

Horrific as that is.

The thing is, of course, Tywin seems blind to people reacting badly to these things which is a sign of mental illness I think. He doesn't get Oberyn and his family will hold everlasting hatred for the deaths of their family because he thinks of his family as tools.

1. It was not pointless terrorism in a strategical sense, he wanted Edmure to split his forces and provoce him to start the war.

2. I doubt that. He could have admitted that he was the one who ordered the death of Elia had he thought that they would not want vengeance afterwards.

[David Selig]

Hey, guys, I heard Pol Pot wasn't that bad either.

The same way that the Starks have justified, say the Rape of the Sisters, human sacrifices of their own extermination of rival Houses in the North?

Like Ned Stark this evil monster. He wanted to go to war for his honor and was willing to sell his own daughter for an alliance.

A really bad person.

Didn't they teach in kindergarten that "But he did it too" is not a good excuse?

[Knight Of Winter]

I don't get these Tywin wasn't bad, he was just product of his environment defences I read here. Every single character in the series is product of his/her environment, yet vast majority of them are not vile assholes like Tywin. If your personal view is that you'll happily kill, rape, steal from and torture countless people to advance your personal cause, then, dear Tywin, there's something wrong with your view.

I liked reading about Tywin in TWOIAF and found his story interesting. Him seeing his house deteriorating during Tytos' time, being Aerys' Hand despite numerous humiliation - all of these helped to expand Tywin's character and humanize him a bit. But let's not pretend that he's anything other than criminal and giant jerk.

[The Wolves]

Like Ned Stark this evil monster. He wanted to go to war for his honor and was willing to sell his own daughter for an alliance.

A really bad person.

What does Ned have to do with Tywin?

[King Brandon Ice Eyes]

Like Ned Stark this evil monster. He wanted to go to war for his honor and was willing to sell his own daughter for an alliance.

A really bad person.

He wanted to go to war while the alternative was...go to war, but intead backing a illegitimate heir with sadistic tendencies, undermining the institution he is supposed to uphold in order to maintain present and future estability. Bloodshed was already happening, thanks to Tywin. Ned tried to prevent a crisis of succession with diplomacy by using his authority as a regent and Robert's words to secure the throne for Stannis. Cersei closed that door and thus provoked a prolonged conflict of continental proportions. Ned didn't go to war for his honor. That's an oversimplification. If he put his honor above all else he would not have lied to Robert. But he can not simply make light of a government system flawed as it may be by ignoring the rules accepted by the very members of society by backing a bastard and thus making himself, his family and his people enemies of the man who he knows is the rightful heir. Ned wasn't facing a binary dilemma: war X honor. War would come anyway. He could back the traitors or the real heir. The real tricky question was how to avoid bloodshed and garantee a relatively peaceful transition. The power of Stark, Baratheon, Tully and Arryn could have prevented Tywin who was already savaging the Riverlands from insisting on prolonguing the conflict. He tried, he was naive, the traitors won and caused the WoT5K, not him.

To compare Ned who believed in mercy with Tywin who has a history of murdering and maiming innocent people as fuel for his power is absurd.

Marrying a daughter for political purposes is a common practice. Doesn't mean there won't be court in which both future spouses will get to know each other so that things go smoothly. Ned cared about Sansa's happiness, there is no denying that. I don't blame Tywin for marrying off Cersei, I blame him for refusing to even listen her objection, simply stating she is his daughter and will obey him. Ned's approach is completely different. Look at how patient and kind he is to Arya despite her unconventional behavior.

[Winterfell is Burning]

Tywin's misogyny is horrific and using the Mountain is pointless save that he has this weird idea that terrorism and cruelty make things better than worse. Still, you could understand Tywin killing the Targaryen heirs.

Horrific as that is.

Understand, even if not condone.

The thing is, of course, Tywin seems blind to people reacting badly to these things which is a sign of mental illness I think. He doesn't get Oberyn and his family will hold everlasting hatred for the deaths of their family because he thinks of his family as tools.

Some fans defend Tywin unleashing the Mountain on the Riverlands for utilitarian reasons, but tell me something:

What did send the Mountain to rape people collaborated in having Tyrion released? In what way the story of Tyrion's release would have been different if Tywin had not unleashed his monsters? The only answer is that it accomplished nothing and influenced nothing.

And what would happen if Robert hadn't died? Then Tywin would at best be in serious trouble with the Warden of the North AND Hand of the King AND The king's best friend AND father of the future queen AND uncle by marriage of the LP of the Vale and brother in law of his mother and regent AND who also happened to be an extremely popular figure among the lords of the Vale AND Son-in-Law of the LP of the Riverlands, who would ALSO be mad at him as well. At worse he would be beheaded (and all that ignoring the incest).

You know, now that I write this down, I realize Ned at that point in AGOT was everything Tywin ever wanted to be: Hand of the King and best friend of the King and his daughter a future queen. And he achieved all that not by lying, or scheming or ordering mass murder and rape, but just by being a competent commander and an honorable man. And in all that his reputation is that of an extremely honorable and incorruptible man, and he's extremely popular not only in his Kingdom, but in the Vale and Riverlands as well, and not hated anywhere.

I can't imagine Tywin was at least a little jealous: Ned was the guy that proved everything he ever said to be complete BS, that you can achieve success without drowning yourself in the mud.

As for your last paragraph, I agree.