R+L=J v.120

[sj4iy]

As I recall this comes from the app, though I don't have it, and can't find anything with a bit of quick searching. However I did find references to the app stating that Hightower stayed at the ToJ on Rhaegar's orders. Anyone with the app able to confirm or deny that?

"But eventually his father sent Ser Gerold Hightower to recall Rhaegar to his duties, thought Rhaegar ordered Ser Gerold, Ser Arthur, and Ser Oswell to keep guard over Lyanna in the South."

[J. Stargaryen]

What's the point of that when they could simply have stayed and still accomplished the same thing? It seriously makes no sense.

And again, there's nothing in the text suggesting that they did. Which is why I disagree with it. If they started out in one place and ended up in one place with no indication that they left said place, then logic follows that they were at said place the entire time.

I disliked the way you wrote that I was implying that I was better at inferring than others when that was not at all the point of my post. I actually said the exact opposite- that I dislike inferring too much because that leads one down the path of jumping to conclusions. I edited it because I would rather stay civil.

What in the text suggests that Hightower was holding Lyanna hostage? You do realize you're inferring that, right? And that's totally fine, btw. I guess I'm just confused by how this discussion has gone from that point to you claiming you try not to infer too much.

This series requires a certain amount of inference, because GRRM doesn't usually spoon feed us the answers, so we have to reason things out. Which was the point I was trying to make when you thought I was being flippant.

As I recall this comes from the app, though I don't have it, and can't find anything with a bit of quick searching. However I did find references to the app stating that Hightower stayed at the ToJ on Rhaegar's orders. Anyone with the app able to confirm or deny that?

I'll take a look in a bit. I'm trying to post here during commercials and intermissions of the hockey game.

[BearQueen87]

"But eventually his father sent Ser Gerold Hightower to recall Rhaegar to his duties, thought Rhaegar ordered Ser Gerold, Ser Arthur, and Ser Oswell to keep guard over Lyanna in the South."

Is that what the universe of Planetos thinks happened (read: GRRM doesn't want to tell us so he keeps it in-universe)

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

As I recall this comes from the app, though I don't have it, and can't find anything with a bit of quick searching. However I did find references to the app stating that Hightower stayed at the ToJ on Rhaegar's orders. Anyone with the app able to confirm or deny that?

Interestingly, last I checked there was no entry for Hightower in the App.

ETA: Rhaegar's entry does state that Hightower, Dayne and Whent all stayed at the tower on the prince's orders. Confirmed.

[sj4iy]

What in the text suggests that Hightower was holding Lyanna hostage? You do realize you're inferring that, right? And that's totally fine, btw. I guess I'm just confused by how this discussion has gone from that point to you claiming you try not to infer too much.

This series requires a certain amount of inference, because GRRM doesn't usually spoon feed us the answers, so we have to reason things out. Which was the point I was trying to make when you thought I was being flippant.

I was just explaining the "Hightower taking Lyanna as a hostage" theory. I don't necessarily believe it is more likely than Rhaegar simply ordering him to stay, nor can I take credit for it. I just don't know if it makes complete sense that Hightower would be sent to recall Rhaegar and then not have orders to bring him back. But it's really neither here nor there...in the end, Hightower stayed. And he likely went from obeying orders (whether they were Aerys' orders or Rhaegar's orders) while the Targaryens were still alive to protecting the king after the other heirs had fallen.

I'll take a look in a bit. I'm trying to post here during commercials and intermissions of the hockey game.

Don't worry, I quoted the app already. Which game are you watching, out of curiosity?

[sj4iy]

Is that what the universe of Planetos thinks happened (read: GRRM doesn't want to tell us so he keeps it in-universe)

That's what I assume. The app usually goes with the standard story and doesn't give out spoilers.

Interestingly, last I checked there was no entry for Hightower in the App.

It's under Rhaegar's section.

[J. Stargaryen]

I was just explaining the "Hightower taking Lyanna as a hostage" theory. I don't necessarily believe it is more likely than Rhaegar simply ordering him to stay, nor can I take credit for it. I just don't know if it makes complete sense that Hightower would be sent to recall Rhaegar and then not have orders to bring him back. But it's really neither here nor there...in the end, Hightower stayed. And he likely went from obeying orders (whether they were Aerys' orders or Rhaegar's orders) while the Targaryens were still alive to protecting the king after the other heirs had fallen.

Don't worry, I quoted the app already. Which game are you watching, out of curiosity?

Bruins-Wild.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

That's what I assume. The app usually goes with the standard story and doesn't give out spoilers.

It's under Rhaegar's section.

Yeah. My impression is that the app basically integrates whatever basic information is available from the books and the HBO series. I generally do not consider the app to be a reliable source - for that reason (combining stories from book and screen), and because it makes no clear discriminations on the basis of POV limitations, unreliable narrators, etc.

It's a handy reference, for sure; but if we want to know what really happened in the story, or we want to analyze, weigh, consider possible interpretations, outcomes, or scenarios... then we should go to Martin's actual text. The app is no replacement for the text, and it's unlikely to be reliable as a narrative gap-filler in the end. (IMHO.)

[sj4iy]

Yeah. My impression is that the app basically integrates whatever basic information is available from the books and the HBO series. I generally do not consider the app to be a reliable source - for that reason (combining stories from book and screen), and because it makes no clear discriminations on the basis of POV limitations, unreliable narrators, etc.

It's a handy reference, for sure; but if we want to know what really happened in the story, or we want to analyze, weigh, consider possible interpretations, outcomes, or scenarios... then we should go to Martin's actual text. The app is no replacement for the text, and it's unlikely to be reliable as a narrative gap-filler in the end. (IMHO.)

Actually, the app has nothing at all about the tv show...it's strictly book canon only. But you're right in that it's not always a reliable source of information (there are mistakes in it). However, there are things in it that are not in the book but confirmed by Martin, like "Rhaegar was killed after giving Robert a serious wound. He would die with Lyanna's name on his lips."

Basically, I would not take it as an airtight source of information, but it is a good source to have.

[PrettyPig]

Re: Hightower:

I'm on my Dance reread right now, and am at "The Queensguard" chapter. Barristan is waxing nostalgic about KG duties and his failures and kings farming out their KG to family members and mistresses and whatnot, and then he says this:

"If the queen had commanded me to protect Hizdahr, I would have no choice but to obey. But Daenerys Targaryen had never established a proper Queensguard even for herself nor issued any commands in respect to her consort. The world was simpler when I had a lord commander to decide such matters, Selmy reflected."

Replace "Daenerys" with "Rhaegar" and I think we have our answer as to what Hightower did at ToJ. He made a judgment call.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Actually, the app has nothing at all about the tv show...it's strictly book canon only. But you're right in that it's not always a reliable source of information (there are mistakes in it). However, there are things in it that are not in the book but confirmed by Martin, like "Rhaegar was killed after giving Robert a serious wound. He would die with Lyanna's name on his lips."

Basically, I would not take it as an airtight source of information, but it is a good source to have.

Right. No quibbles here. The reason I suggested it might pull bits from the show is that the only source I can think of for the claim that Aerys sent LC Hightower to find Rhaegar is the HBO version of the White Book. It's certainly not anything that appears in the books as written. Maybe there's some other source for that information that I missed?

Clearly, the app prioritizes information from the books. But it also fills in gaps of information without citing its sources, and it gets revised a bit with each new update. So when I read it, I tend to squint suspiciously... :)

[Kingmonkey]

Is that what the universe of Planetos thinks happened (read: GRRM doesn't want to tell us so he keeps it in-universe)

This.

It's useful additional info, but must be treated with caution. If it does indeed state that Ozzy and Art were Rhaegar's sworn shields then that's pretty solid, because it's information that would be widely known in world. It's not going to be much use for determining exactly what happened behind closed doors though, particularly when it concerns something GRRM doesn't want to reveal yet.

[sj4iy]

Re: Hightower:

I'm on my Dance reread right now, and am at "The Queensguard" chapter. Barristan is waxing nostalgic about KG duties and his failures and kings farming out their KG to family members and mistresses and whatnot, and then he says this:

Replace "Daenerys" with "Rhaegar" and I think we have our answer as to what Hightower did at ToJ. He made a judgment call.

Dany is the Queen.

Rhaegar was not King.

[sj4iy]

Right. No quibbles here. The reason I suggested it might pull bits from the show is that the only source I can think of for the claim that Aerys sent LC Hightower to find Rhaegar is the HBO version of the White Book. It's certainly not anything that appears in the books as written. Maybe there's some other source for that information that I missed?

Clearly, the app prioritizes information from the books. But it also fills in gaps of information without citing its sources, and it gets revised a bit with each new update. So when I read it, I tend to squint suspiciously... :)

They wouldn't have taken that information from the show, though. More than likely it came from Martin himself, just like Rhaegar's last words.

[PrettyPig]

Dany is queen only in title. She is queen because she bears the name and has declared herself one. If Rhaegar was in process of ousting Aerys, who is to say he didn't do the same?

[sj4iy]

Dany is queen only in title. She is queen because she bears the name and has declared herself one. If Rhaegar was in process of ousting Aerys, who is to say he didn't do the same?

She isn't 'only queen in title' at all. She is queen of Meereen. Barristan swore his service to her.

Hightower never swore his service to Rhaegar, though. He's sworn to Aerys, and only Aerys has the ability to extend his KG protection to Rhaegar.

If Hightower obeyed Rhaegar's orders, then it was because Aerys commanded it.

[BearQueen87]

Dany is queen only in title. She is queen because she bears the name and has declared herself one. If Rhaegar was in process of ousting Aerys, who is to say he didn't do the same?

I'm assuming you mean Westeros?

[PrettyPig]

I will be really, really surprised if KG loyalty during the rebellion was quite as cut and dried than that, but whatever. My point in posting the passage was to highlight that even by-the-book Barry says there are grey areas and a LC can make a decision as to how to proceed in such cases of ambiguity.

[sj4iy]

I will be really, really surprised if KG loyalty during the rebellion was quite as cut and dried than that, but whatever. My point in posting the passage was to highlight that even by-the-book Barry says there are grey areas and a LC can make a decision as to how to proceed in such cases of ambiguity.

If you were talking about Dayne or Whent, there would be room for doubt.

But this is LC Hightower, a man who has been painted as a stickler for the rules and his vows. He is the anomaly at the ToJ...he most certainly wasn't Rhaegar's friend, and he is loyal to Aerys from everything we've seen of him.

Hightower would not take orders from Rhaegar unless Aerys had told him to do so.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

They wouldn't have taken that information from the show, though. More than likely it came from Martin himself, just like Rhaegar's last words.

I don't know. As far as I can tell, the show is the only source for that claim. And I've looked around. If you find it sourced elsewhere, I'd appreciate a reference - because I've puzzled over that a bit.

It's definitely not in the books. In the books we get nothing on Hightower between the time he warns Jaime not to judge Aerys (as the king roasts Starks in the throne room prior to the rebellion) and the encounter at the tower of joy.