R+L=J v.120

[MtnLion]

My idea is that Ned found Lyanna the same way Bran found the 3 eyed raven. Somehow Howland found Ned and told him where to go.

'Tis much simpler than that. Ned chose five warriors to seek his sister with him. Howland Reed had a debt to pay to the Knight of the Laughing Tree, and insisted upon joining. What do we make of the squire Ethan Glover, who has spent about a year in the Black Cells, probably unable to stand without assistance going with them? Ethan Glover has some special information for Ned.

[markg171]

The key thing in the whole jon snows mother saga is the words of the kingsguard at the tower of joy . ned stark constantly throws suggestiveness when commenting on issues regarding the war , aerys , viserys and rhaegar but hightower being a sacred follower of his vows states they will not flee . I feel I need to mention the succession laws of the targaryens . the first born inherits all lands and the first born son of the first born will inherit the throne after that . if something was to happen to the first born then the second born would not inherit unless the first born died without any living heirs (phew) . Rhaegar is the first born and viserys is the second born so the heir to the iron throne is aegon , rhaegars first born son . we all know what happened to him ( or do we ?) but lets just say gregor did what he did . succession laws demand that the next in line is viserys as rhaegar has no known legitimate heirs . so if the theory isn't correct were led to believe that a living legend like the white bull gerod hightower who is well known to follow the rules to the letter takes a different course of action and chooses to stay and protect rhaegars love interest , not very kingsguardish is it ? okay we can say aerys wanted her held captive and it seems likely as when they are at the tower of joy rhaegar is not king and so he cannot ultimately order them otherwise when the king has given them orders , even Arthur dayne his best buddy who is regarded amongst the best there ever was would find it hard breaking his vows. but when rhaegar dies and then his mad old dad soon after him . gerod hightower is then obligated to get his ass to dragonstone and protect viserys . if the theory is correct and we assume jon is still a bastard then again the 3 kingsguard are breaking there vows , as again there rightful duty is to honour there vows and protect the king viserys but instead for unknown reasons choose to stay and guard the dead princes bastard. unless rhaegar or aerys has given them special commands which must have happened prior to the sacking of kings landing for aerys and before the trident for rhaegar then it is clear as day to me that jon snow is the legitimate heir and infact rhaegar must have wed lyanna . why would ned stark after all these years hold rhaegar who apparently stole his sister in high regard ? why would he think honourably of hightower and the sword of the morning when they forsake there own vows to prevent him saving his sister and even kill 5 of his men and nearly kill the nedster aswell when they had more serious things to deal with personally I would think they suck balls .

Except until Jon is born, Viserys is heir. Yet the KG were not with him, even though he is the heir.

[sj4iy]

Truly, it is not unsupported speculation, unless you suggest something that is unsupported.

Supported: Rhaegar always travels with his sworn shields.

Unsupported: Rhaegar would travel alone during a war, through enemy territory.

Rhaegar had an escort when he left the tower, and that escort was his sworn shields, we know as Whent and Dayne. I don't buy into any theory that Aerys held Lyanna hostage by proxy of Hightower. Show me any suggestion be found that Aerys knew about Lyanna.

Incorrect. They did not go with him to Summerhall...he went there by himself. We know they went with him to get Lyanna. We know they weren't with him at the Trident when he died. We know they were found with Lyanna. The logical conclusion to draw from this information is that they stayed with her while Rhaegar left. I don't find any logic in assuming they came with him to KL and then left to go back, leaving Hightower alone to guard Lyanna.

And Aerys knew about Lyanna because it wasn't exactly a secret in Westeros. He's crazy, not stupid. He would have known why Brandon was there calling for Rhaegar's head. I mean, I don't think it was a coincidence that he kills 2 Starks and then calls for Ned's head (who is her brother) and Robert's head (who is her fiancé). Why call for Robert's head when he has nothing to do with the Starks unless it was directly related to Lyanna?

[sagaz]

Glover was a hostage in KL, I don't think he knew that much... If Glover knew something, were because it was vox populi... if that were the case some other people also knew...and it appears that Ned was the only one looking.

If some people knew, and the location was known, I bet Robert would have like to go to Lyanna too.

[J. Stargaryen]

Just because he did it before doesn't mean he did it this time. We know they went with him to get Lyanna. We know they weren't with him at the Trident when he died. We know they were found with Lyanna. The logical conclusion to draw from this information is that they stayed with her while Rhaegar left. I don't find any logic in assuming they came with him to KL and then left to go back, leaving Hightower alone to guard Lyanna.

And Aerys knew about Lyanna because it wasn't exactly a secret in Westeros. He's crazy, not stupid. He would have known why Brandon was there calling for Rhaegar's head. I mean, I don't think it was a coincidence that he kills 2 Starks and then calls for Ned's head (who is her brother) and Robert's head (who is her fiancé). Why call for Robert's head when he has nothing to do with the Starks unless it was directly related to Lyanna?

How is that the logical conclusion? I think you're basically claiming Occam's razor, correct? That makes a certain amount of sense. But on the other hand, the best predictor for future behavior is past behavior. So, I'm not sure why one version is obviously the logical assumption, while the other is not. Personally, I think both cases are about equally strong.

[ToTheWolves]

She could have been too ill to move at that point. She did die in childbirth, after all. Traveling from the mountains of Dorne to KL in her condition would not have been advisable, and I doubt that Rhaegar would have agreed to it in the first place.

This just made me think of something. Elia was Incapable of giving rhaegar another child, or probably would have died if she had tried. Rhaegar then goes off and gets another woman pregnant AND then THAT chick dies giving birth to his child...poor rhaegar

[sagaz]

I imagine that they knew she was "in Dorne" but not exactly where.

[sj4iy]

How is that the logical conclusion? I think you're basically claiming Occam's razor, correct? That makes a certain amount of sense. But on the other hand, the best predictor for future behavior is past behavior. So, I'm not sure why one version is obviously the logical assumption, while the other is not. Personally, I think both cases are about equally strong.

I actually edited my post to point out that Rhaegar went to Summerhall without his KG.

So the claim that he never went anywhere without them is false.

“Yes. And yet Summerhall was the place the prince loved best. He would go there from time to time, with only his harp for company. Even the knights of the Kingsguard did not attend him there. He liked to sleep in the ruined hall, beneath the moon and stars, and whenever he came back he would bring a song. When you heard him play his high harp with the silver strings and sing of twilights and tears and the death of kings, you could not but feel that he was singing of himself and those he loved.”

Basically, the KG were not tied to Rhaegar in the way that is being presented here.

[J. Stargaryen]

I actually edited my post to point out that Rhaegar went to Summerhall without his KG.

So the claim that he never went anywhere without them is false.

You're right about that. But that might be the exception that proves the rule, no? Or, it could be the exception that proves that there could be other exceptions. ;)

[JonCon's Red Beard]

This just made me think of something. Elia was Incapable of giving rhaegar another child, or probably would have died if she had tried. Rhaegar then goes off and gets another woman pregnant AND then THAT chick dies giving birth to his child...poor rhaegar

Rhaegar's penis kills.

Imagine if he had had sex with Maergery...

[sj4iy]

You're right about that. But that might be the exception that proves the rule, no? Or, it could be the exception that proves that there could be other exceptions. ;)

I would suggest the latter. Of course, there's no way to prove either.

I simply go by what the text says. I try not to infer too much into it.

[ToTheWolves]

Rhaegar's penis kills.

Imagine if he had had sex with Maergery...

Double homicide/suicide

[J. Stargaryen]

I would suggest the latter. Of course, there's no way to prove either.

I simply go by what the text says. I try not to infer too much into it.

Then how did you figure out R+L=J, or any of the other mysteries? Have you mastered the art of inferring just the right amount? I get what you're saying, but that's not really a great point. Especially since it's basically what Markg has been saying since he joined the forums.

That said, can we get the quote where it states that Rhaegar was always attended by Whent and Dayne? I recall not being able to find it a little while back.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Then how did you figure out R+L=J, or any of the other mysteries? Have you mastered the art of inferring just the right amount? I get what you're saying, but that's not really a great point. Especially since it's basically what Markg has been saying since he joined the forums.

That said, can we get the quote where it states that Rhaegar was always attended by Whent and Dayne? I recall not being able to find it a little while back.

I remember something like Aerys always being in the throne room with his seven KG. So, also W and D.

[sj4iy]

Then how did you figure out R+L=J, or any of the other mysteries? Have you mastered the art of inferring just the right amount? I get what you're saying, but that's not really a great point. Especially since it's basically what Markg has been saying since he joined the forums.

That said, can we get the quote where it states that Rhaegar was always attended by Whent and Dayne? I recall not being able to find it a little while back.

There's a difference between figuring out a mystery that has a lot of evidence supporting it and inferring something happened without any evidence to support it. And I most certainly wasn't putting myself as a 'superior inferrer'. I simply stated that we have no evidence suggesting that Whent and Dayne accompanied Rhaegar back to KL. And we don't. I don't like filling gaps with speculation, was basically my point.

I figured out that Jon was Lyanna's son by the time I got to the ToJ dream. I didn't really have to infer much of anything, because the abundance of evidence is right there. Ned won't talk about it, Ned thinks of Lyanna almost every other paragraph, the tourney at Harrenhall, the Targaryen children being killed and Ned disagreeing. So no, not much to infer there. Just questions to answer.

There's nothing suggesting that Dayne or Whent went with Rhaegar to KL. No suggestion of it at all, other than they were his best friends and often went with him places. But that doesn't automatically translate to "They were with him" because if they had, they surely would have been there beside him at the Trident and we surely would have had some mention of them by Jaime or Barristan...and we don't.

Of course, I'm not even sure what the point of this debate is because I don't see how it is relevant to anything at all whether they left and came back or just stayed the entire time. I mean, the end result is the same both ways. So it seems like a pointless argument to me.

[J. Stargaryen]

There's a difference between figuring out a mystery that has a lot of evidence supporting it and inferring something happened without any evidence to support it. And I most certainly wasn't putting myself as a 'superior inferrer'. I simply stated that we have no evidence suggesting that Whent and Dayne accompanied Rhaegar back to KL. And we don't. I don't like filling gaps with speculation, was basically my point.

I figured out that Jon was Lyanna's son by the time I got to the ToJ dream. I didn't really have to infer much of anything, because the abundance of evidence is right there. Ned won't talk about it, Ned thinks of Lyanna almost every other paragraph, the tourney at Harrenhall, the Targaryen children being killed and Ned disagreeing. So no, not much to infer there. Just questions to answer.

There's nothing suggesting that Dayne or Whent went with Rhaegar to KL. No suggestion of it at all, other than they were his best friends and often went with him places. But that doesn't automatically translate to "They were with him" because if they had, they surely would have been there beside him at the Trident and we surely would have had some mention of them by Jaime or Barristan...and we don't.

Of course, I'm not even sure what the point of this debate is because I don't see how it is relevant to anything at all whether they left and came back or just stayed the entire time. I mean, the end result is the same both ways. So it seems like a pointless argument to me.

I believe MtnLion's version is that they rode to (or near) KL with Rhaegar and rode back to the tower after. That way they could not be questioned by Aerys regarding Lyanna's whereabouts, etc.

Also, I saw you edited it out but I wasn't being flippant, fyi.

[JonSnow4President]

Truly, it is not unsupported speculation, unless you suggest something that is unsupported.

Supported: Rhaegar always travels with his sworn shields. (This is a quote, btw.)

Unsupported: Rhaegar would travel alone during a war, through enemy territory.

Rhaegar had an escort when he left the tower, and that escort was his sworn shields, we know as Whent and Dayne. I don't buy into any theory that Aerys held Lyanna hostage by proxy of Hightower. Show me any suggestion that Aerys knew about Lyanna.

The problem with that, is he traveled to the trident without his sworn swords, so we know that the "always" is a little loose. So, since they start at A, there's NO evidence of them going to B (either way, it's just a black hole of nothing), and end back at A, I would lean towards them always being at A. But it's really a pointless argument, because it can't be swayed on evidence either way.

Edit: NVM, s4jiy basically already said that. That's what I get for trying to catch up for a couple hours at once.

[BearQueen87]

I believe MtnLion's version is that they road to (or near) KL with Rhaegar and rode back to the tower after. That way they could not be questioned by Aerys regarding Lyanna's whereabouts, etc.

Also, I saw you edited it out but I wasn't being flippant, fyi.

i sorta thought two of the three rode with R to Storm's Landing, where there was a nice big army waiting that could spare a few men, and then the two KG went on back to the TOJ

[sj4iy]

I believe MtnLion's version is that they road to (or near) KL with Rhaegar and rode back to the tower after. That way they could not be questioned by Aerys regarding Lyanna's whereabouts, etc.

What's the point of that when they could simply have stayed and still accomplished the same thing? It seriously makes no sense.

And again, there's nothing in the text suggesting that they did. Which is why I disagree with it. If they started out in one place and ended up in one place with no indication that they left said place, then logic follows that they were at said place the entire time.

Also, I saw you edited it out but I wasn't being flippant, fyi.

I disliked the way you wrote that I was implying that I was better at inferring than others when that was not at all the point of my post. I actually said the exact opposite- that I dislike inferring too much because that leads one down the path of jumping to conclusions. I edited it because I would rather stay civil.

[Kingmonkey]

That said, can we get the quote where it states that Rhaegar was always attended by Whent and Dayne? I recall not being able to find it a little while back.

As I recall this comes from the app, though I don't have it, and can't find anything with a bit of quick searching. However I did find references to the app stating that Hightower stayed at the ToJ on Rhaegar's orders. Anyone with the app able to confirm or deny that?