R+L=J v.120

[markg171]

And, the Kingsguard at the tower label Robert usurper. Robert, himself, knows that fifteen years later there are those who call him usurper. The war is not over if anyone still resists, and there seems to be some open resistance, at least at Dragonstone. It was the storm that sank the fleet at Dragonstone that doomed Viserys to being the beggar king.

But you said that Robert called himself king. My point was that no, the entire realm called him king. Robert's kingship was thoroughly established.

You can call someone a usurper if you want, but the realm had declared that they had a new king at this point. The KG trying to put someone on the throne would be the usurpers by now, not Robert.

[Rrachel]

Welcome to the thread, Rrachel! R+L=J does make a lot of sense, doesn't it? It's definitely more than just a "crackpot" theory - a category that many fan ideas fall into these days (sometimes intentionally). You're right that the RLJ solution doesn't necessarily imply anything in particular about Jon's inheritance rights or political claims. If it's correct, then it very well could have implications in terms of prophetic fulfillment or magic... Martin's on record for saying that he intends the role and amount of magic to increase in each book, so perhaps that's something to keep an eye on moving forward.

On the other hand, while RLJ makes a certain amount of sense... there are also significant limits to our ability to verify the theory. Martin provides just enough information for the attentive reader to infer that Jon might be the son of Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen... yet he never provides enough to be certain. And there's no direct evidence provided whatsoever. So those of us who want to know more about Lyanna and Rhaegar's relationship -- how it might have played out, how it might fit into the rest of the larger story... are inevitably left to use our own imaginations to fill in the gaps. If you ask me, it's a brilliant piece of writing (or non-writing) by Martin - by leaving that gap in his text, he pushes his audience beyond reading and invites us to become co-participants in the telling of his story. Depending on what you find plausible or attractive in a story, you may find yourself drawn to different versions of the theory discussed in these threads.

What I find most intriguing, however... is that Martin continues to preserve the gap in his story. Five books in, and in spite of continuous fan theories and questions on the topic... Martin is still withholding Lyanna's story, and provides no direct evidence at all that Rhaegar and Lyanna were lovers. So for as much sense as R+L=J seems to make, we still must wonder: what is Martin protecting, that might turn this entire theory on its head? What other solutions might we find, if we accept RLJ for the elegant, but limited, answer that it is... and continue to examine other options?

I must say that I am constantly impressed by Martin's talent for puzzle-building and mystery-writing. And in my view, the question of Jon's parentage is one place where that talent continues to shine! :)

Glad to have you in the conversation!

Indeed! I agree with what you say, and this is one of the things I love about ASOIAF, the way GRRM has of telling the stories and how he writes them with enough gaps to make fans wonder, but enough infomation to create interpretations... this makes the universe seem much more belivable and addictive at the same time. It's also lovely to see how a forum can be so alive thanks to the theories and share of information between fans.. is a thing I can only say happens in a very few selective saga of books.

I'm just curious, in case of R+L=J being truth, if this will ever be shown on the books and in which case, if it would have any sort of implication on the story... since things so far seem complicated, specially with the way things ended for Jon on the last book

[markg171]

Are you being willfully thick?

Up to news of Aerys' death, Aerys is protected, they have orders to do what they're doing from either Aerys, or a person whose authority under them stems from Aerys.

After news of Aerys' death. AEGON IS FUCKING DEAD. Rhaenys is DEAD. So, it would make sense that they go to the person the throne should belong to, as they are Targaryen KG. That would be Viserys. But they don't. They stay at the ToJ, either 1)Guarding a dead crown prince's sex doll, 2) just sticking with the prior king's last orders because they have nothing better to do (except protect Viserys, because clearly dead king's orders override protection), 3) Guarding the new heir.

You're discussing everything after the fact, while ignoring the fact that the people most deserving of protection, actually never got any while they were alive.

Hell, thanks for bringing it up that Viserys and Rhaella were left unprotected as well. So that leaves Viserys, Rhaella, Dany, Aegon, Rhaenys, and Elia, all people who were left unprotected by the KG. Yet the KG chose to protect a pregnant Lyanna over any of them?

Now I know you're going to try and say "Well Hightower, Dayne, and Whent thought they were protected, they had Darry, Barristan, Lewyn, and Jaime" But that's a poor argument because they knew that Rhaegar had just been summoned by Aerys to go deal with Robert so he'd be taking KG with him, probably a fair amount since this was to be the battle to end Robert's Rebellion. So 3 KG chose to guard 1 pregnant women, who's child would be at the end of the line of succession, over guarding more important people, including the still living king, and Rhaegar's still living children who were ahead of any child of Lyanna's?

So why did Lyanna get 3 KG, Rhaegar 3 KG, and Aerys 1 KG, while Viserys, Rhaella, Dany, Aegon, Rhaenys, and Elia got none? The people that should be being protected were not. That only makes sense if someone gave them orders to do otherwise.

[JonSnow4President]

You're discussing everything after the fact, while ignoring the fact that the people most deserving of protection, actually never got any while they were alive.

Hell, thanks for bringing it up that Viserys and Rhaella were left unprotected as well. So that leaves Viserys, Rhaella, Dany, Aegon, Rhaenys, and Elia, all people who were left unprotected by the KG. Yet the KG chose to protect a pregnant Lyanna over any of them?

Now I know you're going to try and say "Well Hightower, Dayne, and Whent thought they were protected, they had Darry, Barristan, Lewyn, and Jaime" But that's a poor argument because they knew that Rhaegar had just been summoned by Aerys to go deal with Robert so he'd be taking KG with him, probably a fair amount since this was to be the battle to end Robert's Rebellion. So 3 KG chose to guard 1 pregnant women, who's child would be at the end of the line of succession, over guarding more important people, including the still living king?

So why did Lyanna get 3 KG, Rhaegar 3 KG, and Aerys 1 KG, while Viserys, Rhaella, Dany, Aegon, Rhaenys, and Elia got none? The people that should be being protected were not. That only makes sense if someone gave them orders to do otherwise.

The King HAS to be protected (I suppose this could be circumvented by a king's order). His family does not, UNLESS he extends that protection to them. He extended it to Rhaeger (or we had 2 KG breaking the rules the entire time), but apparently not to the others. I'm not saying they have to stay to protect Lyanna/Jon because they are royal family. They don't if that's the situation.

Prior to the news of Aerys' death, they're there because a person with authority stemming to the king orders them to. My explanation is that, after they learned of the death of a king, they have a duty to make sure the king is protected, especially since they (apparently) know the other 4 KG are dead. AT THAT POINT, they need to ensure protection of the heir, Viserys, and not before, as protection for Viserys only stems from any order from Aerys. Instead, they continue to allow Viserys to be without KG protection. To me, there are only two (broader) explanations. 1). Viserys is not king/ heir pending coronation, or 2) They hold a dead crown prince's orders, which stemmed from the authority of a dead king, above the protection of the new heir to the dynasty they swore themselves to. Two makes no fucking sense, so I posit that Viserys is not king. The only way this happens is if a son of Rhaegar is in the TOJ.

[Ser Leftwich]

No one has ever said that Dayne, Whent, and Hightower were happy about being left to guard Lyanna. Only that they were there and there is a vow involved.

From what we have of Dayne's character, he was probably not very happy to be ordered by his best friend to stay behind and guard someone, but he did as he was told.

[The Twinslayer]

#TeamNeitherIt'sJustNotThatSimple represent!

I think this is a really key point. Whatever happens, the 3KG are in uncharted territory. There is no clear guidelines in the case of the throne being usurped, and it would be pretty delusional to think that the line of succession was unarguable given Targaryen history. The KG do not get to make up their own orders, but in this case, they would have been forced to either way.

The idea that there was one simple, unambiguous guiding principle they would have followed all the way through is really rather silly. I suspect they were winging it, and probably only acted in concert because they were all Kingsguards and ultimately Hightower was the only available authority rather than because they were in full agreement on the right path to take.

Good point. That is why the Tower of the Hand essay that appears in the reference guide on the first page of this thread says that the Kingsguard are there because Lyanna had Rhaegar's child and they are there to protect "that portion of the royal blood." Not that they are there to protect a new king.

Legitimate or not, with the Targaryen family reduced to Rhaella, Viserys and Jon, Jon has a claim. The strength of that claim is open to debate -- but not by the kingsguard. They should protect him and get him to the rest of the family and let them figure out who the new head of House Targaryen will be.

[sj4iy]

We know that he always travels with his sworn shields. That is given. It makes sense that he would during a fucking war.

It would make sense that during a fucking war his sworn shields would be fighting beside him.

Yet they weren't.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

It would make sense that during a fucking war his sworn shields would be fighting beside him.

Yet they weren't.

Rhaegar? He had three KG with him at the trident.

[BearQueen87]

[snip]

Your AVATAR....OMG. Best one yet!

In other news....still doing TOJ, eh?

[MtnLion]

It would make sense that during a fucking war his sworn shields would be fighting beside him.

Yet they weren't.

No, you don't have anything to base your assumption on. Rhaegar always travels with his sworn shields is given. The only thing that we can say is that Hightower must have found Rhaegar at the tower, and that Ned found Whent, Dayne, and Hightower at the tower after the war. We also know that Whent and Dayne did not ride from King's Landing with Rhaegar to the Trident. However, it is most likely that Rhaegar would have sent Whent and Dayne back to the tower to keep them away from Aerys while he talked with him.

Therefore the evidence supports that Rhaegar rode from the tower with Whent and Dayne, when he answered his father's summons. Since Rhaegar always travels with his sworn shields.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Your AVATAR....OMG. Best one yet!

In other news....still doing TOJ, eh?

Yay, merry GRRMsmas, @JonCon's Red Beard!

And welcome to R+L=J, @Rrachel!

[Dorian Martell]

Hodor Hodor!

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Indeed! I agree with what you say, and this is one of the things I love about ASOIAF, the way GRRM has of telling the stories and how he writes them with enough gaps to make fans wonder, but enough infomation to create interpretations... this makes the universe seem much more belivable and addictive at the same time. It's also lovely to see how a forum can be so alive thanks to the theories and share of information between fans.. is a thing I can only say happens in a very few selective saga of books.

Definitely agree. It's hard to imagine this kind of community developing around many other books. It certainly helps that the story is still unfinished, and there is still great ambiguity and uncertainty about exactly where Martin intends to take it.

I'm just curious, in case of R+L=J being truth, if this will ever be shown on the books and in which case, if it would have any sort of implication on the story... since things so far seem complicated, specially with the way things ended for Jon on the last book.

I think you'll find that most all of us here in the RLJ threads believe that the identity of Jon's parents will be revealed in the books. And with good reason - because GRRM himself has said that Jon will find out! (Though I don't have a link handy, someone else may be able to point you to the specific GRRM quote.)

So if Rhaegar and Lyanna really are Jon's parents, it definitely would have to impact the story in some way. And of course, it remains possible that there is another solution to the mystery of Jon's heritage... and a different solution could impact the story very differently.

Any ideas on how an "R+L" reveal would affect Jon and those around him North of the Neck? Do you think it would matter to folks at Winterfell or at the Wall? (Not all of us around here agree on how to answer these questions. A lot of what we discuss around here is very speculative, after all!)

.

[sj4iy]

No, you don't have anything to base your assumption on. Rhaegar always travels with his sworn shields is given. The only thing that we can say is that Hightower must have found Rhaegar at the tower, and that Ned found Whent, Dayne, and Hightower at the tower after the war. We also know that Whent and Dayne did not ride from King's Landing with Rhaegar to the Trident. However, it is most likely that Rhaegar would have sent Whent and Dayne back to the tower to keep them away from Aerys while he talked with him.

Therefore the evidence supports that Rhaegar rode from the tower with Whent and Dayne, when he answered his father's summons. Since Rhaegar always travels with his sworn shields.

This is a god of the gaps argument and I dislike filling gaps with unsupported speculation.

We know that Rhaegar absconded with Lyanna with Dayne and Whent.

We know that Rhaegar rode out, fought and died at the Trident without Dayne or Whent.

We know that Dayne and Whent were found with Lyanna at the TOJ by Ned.

The sensible and most likely explanation is that Rhaegar came back to KL alone, and that Dayne and Whent stayed where they were. Neither Jaime nor Barristan ever mention that Dayne or Whent returned with Rhaegar, and you would think that they would have if that had occurred.

So no, you have nothing to support this theory.

[ser_duncans_heir]

The key thing in the whole jon snows mother saga is the words of the kingsguard at the tower of joy . ned stark constantly throws suggestiveness when commenting on issues regarding the war , aerys , viserys and rhaegar but hightower being a sacred follower of his vows states they will not flee . I feel I need to mention the succession laws of the targaryens . the first born inherits all lands and the first born son of the first born will inherit the throne after that . if something was to happen to the first born then the second born would not inherit unless the first born died without any living heirs (phew) . Rhaegar is the first born and viserys is the second born so the heir to the iron throne is aegon , rhaegars first born son . we all know what happened to him ( or do we ?) but lets just say gregor did what he did . succession laws demand that the next in line is viserys as rhaegar has no known legitimate heirs . so if the theory isn't correct were led to believe that a living legend like the white bull gerod hightower who is well known to follow the rules to the letter takes a different course of action and chooses to stay and protect rhaegars love interest , not very kingsguardish is it ? okay we can say aerys wanted her held captive and it seems likely as when they are at the tower of joy rhaegar is not king and so he cannot ultimately order them otherwise when the king has given them orders , even Arthur dayne his best buddy who is regarded amongst the best there ever was would find it hard breaking his vows. but when rhaegar dies and then his mad old dad soon after him . gerod hightower is then obligated to get his ass to dragonstone and protect viserys . if the theory is correct and we assume jon is still a bastard then again the 3 kingsguard are breaking there vows , as again there rightful duty is to honour there vows and protect the king viserys but instead for unknown reasons choose to stay and guard the dead princes bastard. unless rhaegar or aerys has given them special commands which must have happened prior to the sacking of kings landing for aerys and before the trident for rhaegar then it is clear as day to me that jon snow is the legitimate heir and infact rhaegar must have wed lyanna . why would ned stark after all these years hold rhaegar who apparently stole his sister in high regard ? why would he think honourably of hightower and the sword of the morning when they forsake there own vows to prevent him saving his sister and even kill 5 of his men and nearly kill the nedster aswell when they had more serious things to deal with personally I would think they suck balls .

[Avalatis]

This is a god of the gaps argument and I dislike filling gaps with unsupported speculation.

We know that Rhaegar absconded with Lyanna with Dayne and Whent.

We know that Rhaegar rode out, fought and died at the Trident without Dayne or Whent.

We know that Dayne and Whent were found with Lyanna at the TOJ by Ned.

The sensible and most likely explanation is that Rhaegar came back to KL alone, and that Dayne and Whent stayed where they were. Neither Jaime nor Barristan ever mention that Dayne or Whent returned with Rhaegar, and you would think that they would have if that had occurred.

So no, you have nothing to support this theory.

So are you suggesting that Aerys ordered Hightower to keep Whent and Dayne at the tower to hold Lyanna hostage? And Rhaegar rode back to the Capital without an escort? Or are you suggesting there were others who traveled with Hightower that provided Rhaegar an escort back to the Capital? Perhaps the men that made up this escort were how Ned found the location (which is still unknown I believe).

[Kingmonkey]

I'm just curious, in case of R+L=J being truth, if this will ever be shown on the books and in which case, if it would have any sort of implication on the story... since things so far seem complicated, specially with the way things ended for Jon on the last book

Welcome to the thread!

GRRM has said that he will reveal Jon's parentage. It's due in the next book.

The two favourite theories for the how are Howland Reed or Bran seeing something in the weirwood visions. My money is on Checkov's Crannogman.

It'll have implications for the story, or it wouldn't be there. Some people think it means Jon will end up on the Iron Throne, or marrying Dany, or riding a dragon, or being the Prince That Was Promised, or some combination of the above. On the other hand maybe the impact will be more contrary, and cement his feelings of Starkness. Lots of options. If your name isn't George RR Martin, it's all guesswork.

[sj4iy]

So are you suggesting that Aerys ordered Hightower to keep Whent and Dayne at the tower to hold Lyanna hostage? And Rhaegar rode back to the Capital without an escort? Or are you suggesting there were others who traveled with Hightower that provided Rhaegar an escort back to the Capital? Perhaps the men that made up this escort were how Ned found the location (which is still unknown I believe).

No, I believe that Rhaegar ordered Dayne and Whent to stay with Lyanna. I don't believe Hightower would have stayed only on Rhaegar's orders, though, because it just seems unlikely that he was simply a messenger. Aerys sent the LC of the KG to fetch Rhaegar and Hightower did not return with him. I think Hightower was ordered to stay and keep Lyanna as a hostage to ensure Rhaegar's cooperation. We know that Aerys didn't exactly like or trust Rhaegar, so it doesn't make much sense that he would just hand over his army to Rhaegar without some assurance that Rhaegar would do as he was bid.

We have no evidence that Hightower nor Rhaegar had escorts of any kind, though, and I don't like speculating without some evidence pointing to the possibility. I'm not discounting the possibility, but I just don't see anything in the text that currently supports that idea.

[sagaz]

So are you suggesting that Aerys ordered Hightower to keep Whent and Dayne at the tower to hold Lyanna hostage? And Rhaegar rode back to the Capital without an escort? Or are you suggesting there were others who traveled with Hightower that provided Rhaegar an escort back to the Capital? Perhaps the men that made up this escort were how Ned found the location (which is still unknown I believe).

My idea is that Ned found Lyanna the same way Bran found the 3 eyed raven. Somehow Howland found Ned and told him where to go.

[MtnLion]

This is a god of the gaps argument and I dislike filling gaps with unsupported speculation.

Truly, it is not unsupported speculation, unless you suggest something that is unsupported.

Supported: Rhaegar always travels with his sworn shields. (This is a quote, btw.)

Unsupported: Rhaegar would travel alone during a war, through enemy territory.

Rhaegar had an escort when he left the tower, and that escort was his sworn shields, we know as Whent and Dayne. I don't buy into any theory that Aerys held Lyanna hostage by proxy of Hightower. Show me any suggestion that Aerys knew about Lyanna.