R+L=J v.120

[Black Crow]

Exactly that - and still do maintain as I've laid out before in my Ronin theory which provides an alternative interpretation of the exchange and explains the anomalies.

[Ser Leftwich]

<snip>

Does anyone else remember how they first interpreted that scene?

First reaction was so long ago that I am not sure, but I think that it was the 3 KG were going for honorable death in battle.

[Kingmonkey]

"You say 'erb and we say Herb because...there's a fucking H in it"

I suddenly really need Dany landing in Westeros, being met by fAegon with, "do you have a flag?"

Brilliant!

Scene: somewhere in the Crownlands, Dany meets Aegon under a flag of truce, their forces arrayed across the plain.

Dany: My men tell me you claim to be my brother's son.

Aegon: I am. Welcome back to Westeros, auntie. I trust you will be joining forces to mine and supporting my claim.

Dany: Well "nephy", the thing is that even if you can prove you are who you say you are, Viserys was crowned king on Dragonstone, not Rhaegar. He named me heir. It's you who must support my claim. And yes I know, our family has in the past had a bit of a thing about women inheriting, but that's the past. Time to move on. And let's not dance, little nephy, because lest you forget, I have dragons. You do not.

Aegon: Ahhh, but do you have a flag?

Dany: I beg your pardon?

Aegon: Do you have a flag? I have a flag. I claimed Westeros with my flag.

Dany: A flag?

Aegon: Yes. A flag.

Dany: I don't need a bloody flag, I have dragons!

Aegon: But no flag. No flag, no Westeros. You can't have it. That's the rules I just made up.

(enter Manderly, with the full might of the North, Riverlands and Vale, landing from the shiny new White Harbour fleet)

Manderly: Well this is convenient.

Aegon: Who are you?

Dany: And who's side are you on?

Manderly: I command the forces of his grace King Rickon Stark, King in the North, and all his allies. I come to ask you both an important question that will shape the very future of Westeros.

Aegon: King in the North? What?

Dany: What question?

Manderly: A vital question for you both to answer, about what you each wish for. A simple question, yet the answers you give will will be remembered for years to come.

Aegon: Err... yes?

Dany: Go on.

Manderly: Would you like some pie? OR DEATH?

Aegon: Huh? What are you talking about? Pie?

Manderly: Yes. Tasty, tasty pie. Or DEATH. Choose!

Dany: Ummm... I'll have pie please.

Manderly: Very well! Wylis! Bring her... PIE!

Manderly: (turns to Aegon) Now you! Pie... or death?

Aegon: Ahh, pie for me too please.

Manderly: Are you sure? We've only got a few slices left. For some reason everyone keeps picking pie.

Aegon: Yes, yes, I think I'm pretty certain.

Manderly: I can't tempt you with death? We have a special on.

Aegon: No, no, I'll stick with pie.

Manderly: VERY WELL! Wylis, bring him... PIE.

(Wylis hands Aegon and Dany slices of pie. The forces of the King in the North leave)

Aegon: What just happened?

Dany: I'm not sure.

(Jorah steps forward)

Jorah: Khaleesi. I'm not sure you should eat that pie...

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Brilliant!

<< snip >>

Yes! Really wanted to work in "Cake or Death?"... just couldn't see how to do it. Well done, ser! :bowdown:

ETA: (Earlier in our story...)

Manderly: "Cake or death?"

House Frey: "We'll have Cake too, please!"

Manderly: "Well, we're out of cake! We only had two bits, and didn't expect such a rush!"

House Frey: "So our choices are... "Or Death?" Well, we'll just take some pie then..."

Manderly (chuckling): "Yes, you will. Oh, yes you will..."

[Kingmonkey]

They are mutually exclusive if the objects are at different locations, and if they are at the same location, obey is unnecessary because the primary duty to protect the king takes precedence, anyway.

The objection is that it must be protect not obey because either:

1.The heir is at the tower, thus they are protecting the heir, or

2.The heir is elsewhere, in which case as protect is more important than obey, they would have to leave the tower.

However, there is a third option.

3. The heir is at the tower, therefore they are not obliged to leave the tower, and thus they may obey an order that keeps them at the tower.

This is the problem I have with a straight "protect" viewpoint: while I think it's very likely they did believe the heir was in their presence, they do not seem act in a way that is ideal to protect the heir.

The objection that they would have been secure in the belief they would beat Ned doesn't make much sense. Ned has an army of tens of thousands of men. There's no way they are beating that. Perhaps they saw Ned coming and decided that they could take seven men, but that doesn't make a lot more sense. Ned must have made the calculation that seven was enough to beat the three of them, or he'd have taken more. Ned is an accomplished battle commander and probably had a good idea of these things. You could say the 3KG are more experienced and would be better judges, but as it turns out Ned was right, so this would actually require the 3KG to be worse judges. Even if they believed they did have the edge, there are only three of them and they're not all going to survive. One or two of them dying would weaken the chances of the heir surviving significantly.

Furthermore, by not taking his whole army, Ned gave them every reason to believe he was willing to listen. The duty to protect Jon would be far better served by working with Ned rather than fighting him. This is demonstrated quite clearly by the fact that Ned has kept Jon alive. Of course the 3KG could not know that as a fact, but they would have been hugely remiss not to find out.

The usual objection to this is that they would not be content with Ned hiding Jon in the north as his bastard, as they want Jon on the throne. The problem is that entirely contradicts the suggestion that they must be protecting because their primary duty supersedes all else. Putting an usurped king on the throne is NOT their primary duty, protecting the king is. To put Jon in a more dangerous position so they could place him on the throne would be putting their primary duty aside to play the game of thrones. This is not compatible with the idea that Ned recalls the 3KG as exemplars of the KG duty.

Finally we are left with "We do not flee". "Protect" on its own does not explain this, because indeed KG can flee. See Willis Fell and Rickard Thorne fleeing during the dance. They fled with the king. If the king is present at the ToJ, then the 3KG were free to flee, if they take the king with them.

There are two common reasons given for them staying at the ToJ. Firstly, Lyanna is too ill to move. True, but Lyanna is not the king. If their primary duty to protect the king comes over all else, this is not a valid objection. Secondly, Jon is very newly born. True, but it's a fair bet that Lyanna's too sick to look after Jon, and it's an even fairer bet that nobody's expecting Whent to be a wet nurse. If the 3KG are protecting Jon, they would be very remiss not to have arranged some kind of help. Thus moving Jon would not be ideal, but feasible. So why stay at the ToJ if they consider Ned and his army a threat to Jon, and if they don't, why fight?

Either there's more to the story than we know, or there's a certain amount of hand-wavy "because plot" reasons for some pretty irrational actions.

[Ser Leftwich]

Not sure if this idea has ever been brought up, supposing Ned was expecting to find a pregnant Lyanna, or recently having given birth, along with the 3 KG, Ned did not necessarily know that the baby was or would be male, whereas the KG did.

Does this change the view of the interaction? Ned is giving the KG chances/reasons to leave, without knowing that there is a baby boy heir/king in the tower. Is the conversation as much Ned trying to find out that the baby is a boy as it is giving the KG ways out?

[MtnLion]

Not sure if this idea has ever been brought up, supposing Ned was expecting to find a pregnant Lyanna, or recently having given birth, along with the 3 KG, Ned did not necessarily know that the baby was or would be male, whereas the KG did.

Does this change the view of the interaction? Ned is giving the KG chances/reasons to leave, without knowing that there is a baby boy heir/king in the tower. Is the conversation as much Ned trying to find out that the baby is a boy as it is giving the KG ways out?

The conversation indicates that the Kingsguard were not going to give away the secret that Jon was present and the heir. Flight may have been an option until Ned arrives, out of nowhere, obviously with some help. Why not flee sooner? Lyanna may not die, and separating baby from mother unnecessarily is not a good thing, especially when it may come back on you in later years. They are secure at the tower, no one has stumbled upon them a that location, and indeed it appears that Hightower had to do a lot of detective work and may have been aided by chance to locate Rhaegar, et al. It seems it took several months for Hightower to arrive.

What does Jon inherit? He inherits the fleet at Dragonstone, and all of the loyalist army that sailed there in the fleet, as well as Dragonstone, itself. The Targaryens are far from finished at this point, even though Robert has named himself king, and taken the throne. Barristan was taken in by Robert's generosity and guile, never thinking that the Targaryens would reappear in Westeros.

Is there any reason to believe that Ned would take Jon and marshal the Targaryen armies to take the throne away from his friend, Robert? None, the Kingsguard can only assess him by the rumors that they hear, and it is very unlikely that they have heard of the split because of the children and Jaime. So, there we have it, there is no mutual talking ground, and the king's secrets must be protected, as well as the king himself.

I know that honor is a difficult thing to grasp in modern society. If one does not have honor, then the reason for the dialog and ending are very obscure. It seems apparent that the Kingsguard are living up to their vow, as they claim, by protecting the king with their very lives. They don't directly say so, because that would reveal the king's presence to his enemies. That Ned attempted to negotiate a way around the impasse is to his credit, as well. He did not press for details, because doing so would infringe upon their motives. It was a delicate situation which unfortunately did not have a possible peaceful resolution. Ned cannot leave peacefully. The Kingsguard cannot leave peacefully.

[Ser Leftwich]

<snip>

I know that honor is a difficult thing to grasp in modern society. If one does not have honor, then the reason for the dialog and ending are very obscure. It seems apparent that the Kingsguard are living up to their vow, as they claim, by protecting the king with their very lives. They don't directly say so, because that would reveal the king's presence to his enemies. That Ned attempted to negotiate a way around the impasse is to his credit, as well. He did not press for details, because doing so would infringe upon their motives. It was a delicate situation which unfortunately did not have a possible peaceful resolution. Ned cannot leave peacefully. The Kingsguard cannot leave peacefully.

Ned suspecting Jon's presence, but honorably not talking about it directly.

The KG honorably not bringing it up directly, as it would violate revealing the king's secrets.

[The Twinslayer]

Here you go:

RHAEGAR: "Arthur, Ozzie, Gerald... listen closely. I'm headed north, but I will return. You are to remain at the tower of joy. Under no circumstances are you to leave your post. Do you understand? None. This is most important."

I thought it went like this:

Hightower: My Prince, your father commands you to King's Landing. There is a rebellion. When you disappeared six months ago, your father killed Lord Stark, his heir, and several other lords' heirs. Lords Barratheon and Arryn and Ned Stark called their banners and they are winning. You have to come back.

Rhaegar: That's funny. The guy who brings the food up from Starfall never mentioned this. But I'll go right away. You three need to stay here with Arthur and Oswell to guard wife 2.0, who is pregnant. Oh, and after I leave, one of you should tell her that her father and her brother are dead.

Hightower: Wife 2.0? Is that legal?

Rhaegar: Hey, if Maegor the Cruel can do it, so can I.

Whent: Can we do follow Rhaegar's order and stay here? What about our First Duty?

Dayne: Well, Barristan and Lewyn and Jonathor and Jaime are all with Aerys.

Hightower: Not exactly. Barristan and Lewyn are in the field gathering the remnants of Connington's army. Lewyn is collecting the troops from Dorne. Jaime is more a hostage than a guard.

Dayne: That still leaves Jonathor, so we get to stay.

HIghtower: Okay, we stay.

Time passes. Enter Servant, a serving man from Starfall.

Servant: Ser Gerrold, Ser Gerrold! Rhaegar was killed at the Trident. So were Lewyn and Jonathor. Barristan Selmy was injured. Ser Jaime killed Aerys. The latest word is that Elia, Aegon and Rhaenys were killed too. Ned Stark just lifted the siege at Storm's End. Rhaella and Visersys fled to Dragonstone with Ser WIllem Darry. If you three are all here, that means Viserys does not have any kingsguard with him. Only Willem Darry, the garrison at Dragonstone, and the Targaryen fleet stand between him and the Usurper.

Hightower: Are you sure Aegon is dead?

Servant: Yes. After we got the raven saying that Aerys was dead, I waited a few days to see if another one would come and tell us if Aegon was alive. Then I started riding over here.

Whent: One of us must go to Viserys and Rhaella!

Dayne: No, all three of us have to stay here to guard Lyanna's baby, which was either just born or is being born now.

Hightower: Lyanna's baby? I thought we were guarding Lyanna?

Whent: Can one of us go guard Viserys and Rhaella and leave the other two here? That could make all the difference once the Usurper has time to build a fleet.

Dayne: No, the baby is the new king. So all three of us have to stay. We have no choice, it is the First Duty.

Hightower: Is the baby the king? Or just a bastard?

Whent and Dayne: Rhaegar married Lyanna in front of a tree or a drunk septon. We witnessed it. The baby is legitimate.

Hightower: Are you sure? Wasn't polygamy outlawed by the Old King?

Dayne: I don't know, I'm not a maester.

Whent: I'm pretty sure it's legal if you are a Targaryen.

Hightower: Has anyone done it in the last 200 years?

Whent: There may be other examples, but GRRM hasn't made them up yet.

Hightower: But Aerys didn't even know about this baby. What if he named Visersys his new heir? What if Viserys has already been crowned on Dragonstone? Shouldn't we try to find that out?

Servant: Oh, yeah, I almost forgot to tell you --

Dayne: -- that doesn't matter. A king's will is just a piece of paper that can be ripped up as soon as he is dead. Remember Ser Criston Cole, the Kingmaker? He didn't let the king's will stand in the way of doing what was right, and neither should we.

Hightower: Okay, I'm convinced. This baby is the new king. Let's all stay here and protect him.

Whent: Can't one of us go to Rhaella and Viserys, just in case?

Hightower: No, I am by the book, and the book says all three of us have to stay here. It's the First Duty.

[sj4iy]

I think the most likely situation is that Hightower was ordered to take Lyanna 'hostage' by Aerys to ensure Rhaegar's cooperation. I don't think it makes sense that Hightower would simply 'stay' because Rhaegar told him to when he very clearly had other duties to perform. If Aerys had ordered him to return with Rhaegar, he would have done so, no matter what Rhaegar said to him (because Aerys' orders would trump Rhaegar's). And I don't think that Aerys simply neglected to give Hightower instructions on what to do after he found Rhaegar.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Arys wanted Jaime to stay with him.

Jaime goes and asks Rhaegar to go and fight with him. He wouldn't ask him if there wasn't a small little chance of a Prince being able to override the King's order.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

I think the most likely situation is that Hightower was ordered to take Lyanna 'hostage' by Aerys to ensure Rhaegar's cooperation. I don't think it makes sense that Hightower would simply 'stay' because Rhaegar told him to when he very clearly had other duties to perform. If Aerys had ordered him to return with Rhaegar, he would have done so, no matter what Rhaegar said to him (because Aerys' orders would trump Rhaegar's). And I don't think that Aerys simply neglected to give Hightower instructions on what to do after he found Rhaegar.

That's funny because both Rhaegar and Aerys die unprepared. So Hightower not only had to despair of what to make of that order when he learned the hostage to make Rhaegar willing for Aerys' control when Rhaegar died, but what of his order after also Aerys had died...

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Not sure if this idea has ever been brought up, supposing Ned was expecting to find a pregnant Lyanna, or recently having given birth, along with the 3 KG, Ned did not necessarily know that the baby was or would be male, whereas the KG did.

Does this change the view of the interaction? Ned is giving the KG chances/reasons to leave, without knowing that there is a baby boy heir/king in the tower. Is the conversation as much Ned trying to find out that the baby is a boy as it is giving the KG ways out?

I think he was expecting to find the worst, his sister being hurt and raped several times and maaaaaybe, a baby bastard. But definitely not a King.

[The Red Widow of Coldmoat]

Arys wanted Jaime to stay with him.

Jaime goes and asks Rhaegar to go and fight with him. He wouldn't ask him if there wasn't a small little chance of a Prince being able to override the King's order.

Jaime could have also hoped that Rhaegar might be able to get Aerys to change his mind I suppose (however naive that would make Jaime)

[sj4iy]

That's funny because both Rhaegar and Aerys die unprepared. So Hightower not only had to despair of what to make of that order when he learned the hostage to make Rhaegar willing for Aerys' control when Rhaegar died, but what of his order after also Aerys had died...

I'm sorry, I'm not exactly sure what you are trying to say here. I think there are some missing words or my brain is simply not processing it (which is always a possibility). Could you rephrase?

[Jon Weirgaryen]

I'm sorry, I'm not exactly sure what you are trying to say here. I think there are some missing words or my brain is simply not processing it (which is always a possibility). Could you rephrase?

I may be too tired to post.

If Hightower was ordered by Aerys to take Lyanna hostage in order to bend Rhaegar to Aerys's will, what should poor Gerold Hightower do the moment(s 1 & 2)

1. he learned, Rhaegar had died? Should he still keep Lyanna hostage because Aerys gave an order? Because the purpose to bend Rhaegar to Aerys's will had died with him.

he learned, Aerys, too, had died? Should he still keep Lyanna hostage because Aerys gave an order? Because no more Aerys to blackmail anyone by keeping Lyanna hostage.

I hope I made it clear. It seems a strange and funny train of thought to me, though not to Gerold Hightower to be sure.

[Consigliere]

I may be too tired to post.

If Hightower was ordered by Aerys to take Lyanna hostage in order to bend Rhaegar to Aerys's will, what should poor Gerold Hightower do the moment(s 1 & 2)

1. he learned, Rhaegar had died? Should he still keep Lyanna hostage because Aerys gave an order? Because the purpose to bend Rhaegar to Aerys's will had died with him.

he learned, Aerys, too, had died? Should he still keep Lyanna hostage because Aerys gave an order? Because no more Aerys to blackmail anyone by keeping Lyanna hostage.

I hope I made it clear. It seems a strange and funny train of thought to me, though not to Gerold Hightower to be sure.

Just to add: why would Aerys order Hightower to take Lyanna hostage and keep her at some abandoned tower instead of bringing her to KL where she could be used as leverage against Ned and Robert.

[sj4iy]

I may be too tired to post.

If Hightower was ordered by Aerys to take Lyanna hostage in order to bend Rhaegar to Aerys's will, what should poor Gerold Hightower do the moment(s 1 & 2)

1. he learned, Rhaegar had died? Should he still keep Lyanna hostage because Aerys gave an order? Because the purpose to bend Rhaegar to Aerys's will had died with him.

he learned, Aerys, too, had died? Should he still keep Lyanna hostage because Aerys gave an order? Because no more Aerys to blackmail anyone by keeping Lyanna hostage.

I hope I made it clear. It seems a strange and funny train of thought to me, though not to Gerold Hightower to be sure.

1. In this case, Lyanna is still a valuable hostage because she could be used against Robert and Ned.

2. By the time he would have learned of Aerys' death, he would also have learned of Aegon's death...which would then change it from a hostage situation to a 'guarding the king' situation.

[sj4iy]

Just to add: why would Aerys order Hightower to take Lyanna hostage and keep her at some abandoned tower instead of bringing her to KL where she could be used as leverage against Ned and Robert.

She could have been too ill to move at that point. She did die in childbirth, after all. Traveling from the mountains of Dorne to KL in her condition would not have been advisable, and I doubt that Rhaegar would have agreed to it in the first place.

[Consigliere]

She could have been too ill to move at that point. She did die in childbirth, after all. Traveling from the mountains of Dorne to KL in her condition would not have been advisable, and I doubt that Rhaegar would have agreed to it in the first place.

Still seems a little odd to me. The simplest, and most reasonable explanation imo, is that Aerys orders Hightower to find Rhaegar, Rhaegar orders Hightower to stay/return to the ToJ and Hightower obeys since Aerys had four KG with him at that point.