Three kinds of Dornishmen

[The Dragon King]

The fact that you’re comparing people to artificially selected varieties of dogs and horses kind of makes my point for me.

Plenty of dogs and horses have evolved into distinct breeds through natural selection, same with humans.

BTW, saying your point has been made doesn't actually make your point not does it prove your point has been made.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Sandy are blacks, I think. Salty are supposed to be "Mediterranean" (which is a bullshit term, but, whatever), and Stony, more Central European.

Sandy are Bolivians, Andeans.

Salty are Colombian, Venezuelan, coast Ecuador, Peru.

Stony are from Rio de la Plata (Ur, Par, Chi, Arg).

[R'holling in the Deep]

Sandy are Bolivians, Andeans.

Salty are Colombian, Venezuelan, coast Ecuador, Peru.

Stony are from Rio de la Plata (Ur, Par, Chi, Arg).

What about Brazil?!!! :p

[Dofs]

Sandy dornishmen are not black. Theyre brown. Theres even a picture of one in TWOIAF. based on that and the description they look like some middle eastern people, but far from black.

The summer islanders are described as black.

Sandy dornishmen are from the desert, yes? Then when judging their skin colour, it should be taken into consideration that they are Andals and First Men, and their dark skin color is basically a suntan. They should still have hair colours like blond, red etc, as well as respective eye colours. So not technically middle eastern people.

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

EUROPEAN RACIAL STOCK REP. IN DORNE

Stoney Dornish - Nordic (hair blond ,red ,brown) (eyes grey ,blue ,purple) skin fair .

Salty Dornish - Occidental (hair blond and brown) (eyes brown and blue) skin sun glow

Sandy Dornish - Ibero-insular - (hair dark) (eyes dark) skin dark not black

[Chebyshov]

We at the Dorne thread are of the opinion that Daeron’s division of Dorne into three groups is, at best, a gross oversimplification. At worst it’s racism, pure and simple. This probably applies ever more to the nobel houses than to everyone else, since they’ve spend the last thousands years intermarrying almost exclusively with each other.

:agree:

I'm not sure how an over-fixation on pigmentation with no regard to culture is anything but racist, especially given that Dornishmen themselves identify as just that. Dornish. Do you ever hear one single Dornishman describe him/herself as "sandy, salty, or stoney"? No, because they're completely arbitrary divisions based solely on physical appearance. "Ethnicity" is about a common social, cultural, or national experience, and "race" is not a biologically valid classification, as most biologists or anthropologists will tell you.

As Julia Martell aptly pointed out, Dorne has spent over a thousand years intermarrying, so to imply that Rhoynish blood is limited to those with olive skin is silly. Only Daeron saw fit to draw lines, which is both reductive to Dornish culture and non-beneficial for anyone.

Westerosi?” the man answered, in the Common Tongue. “Dornishmen. My master is a wineseller.”

I can't even touch the dog breeds vs. human things. White people are not a different breed from black people. That's a completely disgusting way to look at any of it, especially since humans created breeds through domestication and artificial selection. It's an entirely unnatural classification that behooved us as the domesticators, so to apply that to humans at all you'd need to look at eugenics, not hair color. JFC.

[Ingelheim]

EUROPEAN RACIAL STOCK REP. IN DORNE

Stoney Dornish - Nordic (hair blond ,red ,brown) (eyes grey ,blue ,purple) skin fair .

Salty Dornish - Occidental (hair blond and brown) (eyes brown and blue) skin sun glow

Sandy Dornish - Ibero-insular - (hair dark) (eyes dark) skin dark not black

As a Spanish myself, I must say that the "dark hair, skin and eyes" that we are supposed to have is kind of a myth. Only in Andalucia things go that way, and not always.

[Dofs]

:agree:

I'm not sure how an over-fixation on pigmentation with no regard to culture is anything but racist, especially given that Dornishmen themselves identify as just that. Dornish. Do you ever hear one single Dornishman describe him/herself as "sandy, salty, or stoney"? No, because they're completely arbitrary divisions based solely on physical appearance. "Ethnicity" is about a common social, cultural, or national experience, and "race" is not a biologically valid classification, as most biologists or anthropologists will tell you.

I would be racist if, for example, Stony Dornishmen would be considered better than Salty or something like that. Racism implies discrimination, and nobody discriminates Sandy, Salty or Stony Dornishmen. So it's not racist.

[Chebyshov]

I would be racist if, for example, Stony Dornishmen would be considered better than Salty or something like that. Racism implies discrimination, and nobody discriminates Sandy, Salty or Stony Dornishmen. So it's not racist.

You're acting as if these are divisions that make sense to Dornishmen...they don't. It's divisions that were drawn by an OUTSIDER with NO CONSIDERATION TO CULTURE or any understanding of the dynamics of the people. It's as racist as Columbus naming the Native Americans "Indians."

[Dofs]

You're acting as if these are divisions that make sense to Dornishmen...they don't. It's divisions that were drawn by an OUTSIDER with NO CONSIDERATION TO CULTURE or any understanding of the dynamics of the people. It's as racist as Columbus naming the Native Americans "Indians."

If Dornishmen are not offended by these divisions, and if these divisions do not imply offence and discrimination, I don't see it as racist. And as far as I remember, Columbus named Native Americans "Indians" because he genuinely thought that he was in India so I don't see it as racist either.

[Ingelheim]

You're acting as if these are divisions that make sense to Dornishmen...they don't. It's divisions that were drawn by an OUTSIDER with NO CONSIDERATION TO CULTURE or any understanding of the dynamics of the people. It's as racist as Columbus naming the Native Americans "Indians."

Columbus died believing they were Indians. That's not racist.

[joluoto2]

If Dornishmen are not offended by these divisions, and if these divisions do not imply offence and discrimination, I don't see it as racist. And as far as I remember, Columbus named Native Americans "Indians" because he genuinely thought that he was in India so I don't see it as racist either.

Well, Columbus was pretty racist, but naming the natives Indians was as you said pretty much because he thought he was in India.

[Chebyshov]

Oh lord, a guy sees brown people and assumes his location, but there's nothing racist going on there? Okay.

If you won't concede "racism," which is a bit pedantic IMO, then at least you should be able to concede that it was a gross and unhelpful oversimplification based solely on physical appearance that didn't behoove anyone and allowed for complete cultural misunderstanding?

In terms of Daeron's gross and unhelpful oversimplifications, here's all that matters:

• The Dornish don't use the labels and only think of themselves as "Dornishmen" (so probably find them offensive, yeah)
  
• The Dornish have been intermarrying for 1,000s of years so there's no clean division
  
• If the Dornish don't find the labels useful, neither should we.
  

The Houses won't fit neatly into these categories, because these categories are fundamentally flawed and (I would argue) socially damaging.

[Julia Martell]

I would be racist if, for example, Stony Dornishmen would be considered better than Salty or something like that. Racism implies discrimination, and nobody discriminates Sandy, Salty or Stony Dornishmen. So it's not racist.

I dispute the idea that racism is necessarily discriminatory and negative. In fact, it’s that “positive” kind of racism that’s often the most insidious. The “noble savage” myth is just as harmful to aboriginal americans as is the imagine of crazy scalpers who kidnap white maidens because it reduces an entire group people with a complex history, made up millions of individual with varied opinions, values, and priorities to a neat stereotype that can be put in a box, measured, and judged by outsiders who have every motivation to eliminate that complexity and harness that culture to serve themselves.

That’s exactly what proto-Anthopology in the 19th century was and that’s exactly was Daeron was trying to do. He saw Dorne as nothing more than an instrument to aggrandize himself and his culture. It was entirely in his interest to paint them as three quant little groups that could be easily identified by their hair colour and the quaint little brightly coloured scarfs they wrapped around their helmets. It distracted everyone from the fact that this was a complex, impossible to generalize about, thousand year old culture he was hell-bent on destroying because he felt like playing Risk with real people.

[Drth Fel]

I thought the three types of Dornishmen were heterosexual, homosexual, and bisexual...

[Julia Martell]

I thought the three types of Dornishmen were heterosexual, homosexual, and bisexual...

Thank you. You win the thread.

[Ingelheim]

Oh lord, a guy sees brown people and assumes his location, but there's nothing racist going on there? Okay.

If you won't concede "racism," which is a bit pedantic IMO, then at least you should be able to concede that it was a gross and unhelpful oversimplification based solely on physical appearance that didn't behoove anyone and allowed for complete cultural misunderstanding?

In terms of Daeron's gross and unhelpful oversimplifications, here's all that matters:

• The Dornish don't use the labels and only think of themselves as "Dornishmen" (so probably find them offensive, yeah)

The Dornish have been intermarrying for 1,000s of years so there's no clean division

If the Dornish don't find the labels useful, neither should we.

The Houses won't fit neatly into these categories, because these categories are fundamentally flawed and (I would argue) socially damaging.

What? Columbus wanted to travel to the Indias...that's why he thought the Americans were Indians. He did not know there was an entire continent between Europe and Asia. It's not about seeing brown and thinking "Indians".

[Bennis of the Brown Shield]

I dispute the idea that racism is necessarily discriminatory and negative. In fact, it’s that “positive” kind of racism that’s often the most insidious. The “noble savage” myth is just as harmful to aboriginal americans as is the imagine of crazy scalpers who kidnap white maidens because it reduces an entire group people with a complex history, made up millions of individual with varied opinions, values, and priorities to a neat stereotype that can be put in a box, measured, and judged by outsiders who have every motivation to eliminate that complexity and harness that culture to serve themselves.

That’s exactly what proto-Anthopology in the 19th century was and that’s exactly was Daeron was trying to do. He saw Dorne as nothing more than an instrument to aggrandize himself and his culture. It was entirely in his interest to paint them as three quant little groups that could be easily identified by their hair colour and the quaint little brightly coloured scarfs they wrapped around their helmets. It distracted everyone from the fact that this was a complex, impossible to generalize about, thousand year old culture he was hell-bent on destroying because he felt like playing Risk with real people.

Or it is just how things are. It is already apparent that GRRM has made genetics work differently in Westeros, with certain noble families retaining characteristic looks over centuries or even millennia. Which is impossible in real life, unless they practice inbreeding. Or I guess if the people they belong to also happen to look just like them.

There is no proof that the "Stony, Salty, Sandy" division is something that isn't based on reality. The world book supports it, and there are AFAIK no Dornishmen in the book saying that it is false either.

[Poodle Pup From Astapor]

We're talking about the classification of Dornishmen into salty sandy etc

You don't say.

[Salafi Stannis]

You don't say.

Say Wallahi.