Three kinds of Dornishmen

[Maester Mando]

So Daeron the Young Dragon noticed 3 different kinds of Dornishmen, stony, sandy, and salty.

Id like to know which house belongs to which type.

So far i think:

Stony - Wyl, Yronwood, Blackmont, Fowler, Dayne

Sandy - Qorgyle, Uller, Vaith, Allyrion

Salty - Jordayne, Toland, Martell

What do you think? Did i miss something? Do you agree?

And whats the relation between first men/andal/rhoynar descent and one of the above mentioned groups?

[Julia Martell]

We at the Dorne thread are of the opinion that Daeron’s division of Dorne into three groups is, at best, a gross oversimplification. At worst it’s racism, pure and simple. This probably applies ever more to the nobel houses than to everyone else, since they’ve spend the last thousands years intermarrying almost exclusively with each other.

I mean, House Vaith is definitely in the desert, yet Cassella Vaith, Aegon IV’s mistress, is depicted with blonde hair. And Valena Toland apparently has shocking red hair, despite the fact that Ghost Hill is firmly on the Broken Arm, where the Rhoynar influence is the strongest.

The Dornish are a phenotypically diverse bunch and Daeron was hardly a subtle cultural critic or observer, and he was probably eager to find any divisions he could exploit.

[Salafi Stannis]

We at the Dorne thread are of the opinion that Daeron’s division of Dorne into three groups is, at best, a gross oversimplification. At worst it’s racism, pure and simple. This probably applies ever more to the nobel houses than to everyone else, since they’ve spend the last thousands years intermarrying almost exclusively with each other.

I mean, House Vaith is definitely in the desert, yet Cassella Vaith, Aegon IV’s mistress, is depicted with blonde hair. And Valena Toland apparently has shocking red hair, despite the fact that Ghost Hill is firmly on the Broken Arm, where the Rhoynar influence is the strongest.

The Dornish are a phenotypically diverse bunch and Daeron was hardly a subtle cultural critic or observer, and he was probably eager to find any divisions he could exploit.

Racist how?

[Maester Mando]

We at the Dorne thread are of the opinion that Daeron’s division of Dorne into three groups is, at best, a gross oversimplification. At worst it’s racism, pure and simple. This probably applies ever more to the nobel houses than to everyone else, since they’ve spend the last thousands years intermarrying almost exclusively with each other.

I mean, House Vaith is definitely in the desert, yet Cassella Vaith, Aegon IV’s mistress, is depicted with blonde hair. And Valena Toland apparently has shocking red hair, despite the fact that Ghost Hill is firmly on the Broken Arm, where the Rhoynar influence is the strongest.

The Dornish are a phenotypically diverse bunch and Daeron was hardly a subtle cultural critic or observer, and he was probably eager to find any divisions he could exploit.

I think generally speaking its more ignorance than racism. I just remember the scene when Arya sees Edric Dayne and wonders he doesnt look "dornish".

[Julia Martell]

Racist how?

“Racist” probably not the best word, thought it is a convient one. I was thinking more in terms of the kind of Victorian Era cultural chauvinism that prompted the Negroid, Caucasoid, Mongoloid & sometimes Australoid system that they so favoured. It was more an expression of their own sense of superiority than it was a reflection of actual facts on the ground. It certainly seems to me like that was the case here.

[Poodle Pup From Astapor]

Racist how?

"he's black, so he's from jungle"

[Maester Mando]

A bit off topic but i was wondering if the location of spottswood is known or not? Couldnt find anything about that.

[Salafi Stannis]

"he's black, so he's from jungle"

We're talking about the classification of Dornishmen into salty sandy etc

[The Dragon King]

“Racist” probably not the best word, thought it is a convient one. I was thinking more in terms of the kind of Victorian Era cultural chauvinism that prompted the Negroid, Caucasoid, Mongoloid & sometimes Australoid system that they so favoured. It was more an expression of their own sense of superiority than it was a reflection of actual facts on the ground. It certainly seems to me like that was the case here.

How does labeling people according to their phenotypes have anything to do with expressing a feeling of superiority? We label breeds of dogs and horses according to areas where they're prevalent, do you take issue with that?

[Gibzit]

I never quite understood the difference between salty and sandy dornishmen.

[Maester Mando]

I never quite understood the difference between salty and sandy dornishmen.

Sandy dornishmen are supposed to be darker, with brown skin, like middle easterners

Salty have olive skin like people from southern europe

Stony are northern and central european looking

[AzureOwl]

Racist how?

Trying to shove everyone into neat distinct categories according to race is a habit most racists tend to display.

For example, haven't you ever seen a racist with a "do not compute" face when confronted with the fact that there are pale, blonde, blue eyed Latinos?

[RumHam]

How does labeling people according to their phenotypes have anything to do with expressing a feeling of superiority? We label breeds of dogs and horses according to areas where they're prevalent, do you take issue with that?

Dog racism is a serious problem. I've heard many otherwise politically correct people openly saying they hate a certain species of dog.

[Julia Martell]

How does labeling people according to their phenotypes have anything to do with expressing a feeling of superiority? We label breeds of dogs and horses according to areas where they're prevalent, do you take issue with that?

The fact that you’re comparing people to artificially selected varieties of dogs and horses kind of makes my point for me.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Trying to shove everyone into neat distinct categories according to race is a habit most racists tend to display.

It's not exclusive to racists, though. Ethnology and Anthropology classify humans by their "race", in a way, but with completely different intention.

For example, haven't you ever seen a racist with a "do not compute" face when confronted with the fact that there are pale, blonde, blue eyed Latinos?

I've seen it, I live it everyday :lol:

[Ingelheim]

Sandy dornishmen are supposed to be darker, with brown skin, like middle easterners

Salty have olive skin like people from southern europe

Stony are northern and central european looking

Sandy are blacks, I think. Salty are supposed to be "Mediterranean" (which is a bullshit term, but, whatever), and Stony, more Central European.

[Fat Mac]

Sandy are blacks, I think. Salty are supposed to be "Mediterranean" (which is a bullshit term, but, whatever), and Stony, more Central European.

I don't think sandy Dornishmen are black.

[Maester Mando]

Sandy dornishmen are not black. Theyre brown. Theres even a picture of one in TWOIAF. based on that and the description they look like some middle eastern people, but far from black.

The summer islanders are described as black.

[Ingelheim]

I don't think sandy Dornishmen are black.

Sandy dornishmen are not black. Theyre brown. Theres even a picture of one in TWOIAF. based on that and the description they look like some middle eastern people, but far from black.

The summer islanders are described as black.

Well, maybe I should have read more carefully, but when I read their description, they sounded pretty black to me. My bad.

[Dofs]

As I see it, although I don't remember who is sandy, stony and salty:

1. Naturally white skin Dornishmen who live in the mountains

2. Naturally white skin Dotnishmen who live in the desert, thus actually having a much darker skin color due to constant suntan.

3. Dornishmen with naturally darker skin colour due to influence of Rhoynar blood.

So it's perfectly logical that, for example, Cassella Vaith, that was mentioned earlier in this thread could very likely have blond hair despite House Vaith being located in the desert - Dornishmen that are in the desert, according to the World Book are predominantly Andals and thus are white.