Connington's POV in ADWD

[John Doe]

Feelings or not, he's as much Aegon's father as Ned is Jon's. He raised him for the last 12 years.

In uncle Illyrio's appartment?

[sj4iy]

Connington recently gained more interest with me just because of how well he knows the most nebulous character in the series: Rhaegar.

He remarks upon how "Even Rhaegar saw Aerys's madness in the end" which leads me to believe Rhaegar had a habit of making himself willingly ignorant to things that were unpleasant.

I don't see how someone jumps to that conclusion. It's oftentimes more difficult for a family member to see something than it is someone outside of the family. We also know that Rhaegar and Aerys didn't get along and didn't really spend much time together after Aerys insulted his wife and daughter...so he may not have even seen Aerys enough to really notice anything wrong in the first place.

[Ser Cold Fingers]

If Tywin wanting to strenghten his family's rule is selfish, than this should be considered pretty selfish too.

On that, every action that benefits you, your family or your honor could be labeled as selfish.

I guess it all depends on one wants to deem selfish.

If you want to label it as such, I have no issues with it. I choose not to.

Agree to disagree. [emoji2]

Cheers.

[the Scorpion Knight]

If Tywin wanting to strenghten his family's rule is selfish, than this should be considered pretty selfish too.

in tywin case it's the HOW that's selfish and IMHO idiotic and insane

[The Dragons Hand]

I don't see how someone jumps to that conclusion. It's oftentimes more difficult for a family member to see something than it is someone outside of the family. We also know that Rhaegar and Aerys didn't get along and didn't really spend much time together after Aerys insulted his wife and daughter...so he may not have even seen Aerys enough to really notice anything wrong in the first place.

So after Rhaegar was married and has his first kid, they didn't spend much time together?

Pretty big time-slot before that.

I don't think Rhaegar is *Insert theory of his insanity here*, but I do think he had a pretty major flaw in gazing to the stars, prophecy and the like while not thinking about the here and now.

[sj4iy]

So after Rhaegar was married and has his first kid, they didn't spend much time together?

Pretty big time-slot before that.

I don't think Rhaegar is *Insert theory of his insanity here*, but I do think he had a pretty major flaw in gazing to the stars, prophecy and the like while not thinking about the here and now.

It may have been before, too...but we know that Aerys insulted his daughter by refusing to touch her when she was born because she 'smelled Dornish'.

I don't think it requires that Rhaegar be selfish or 'willfully ignorant' for him to not like his father...he was Prince of Dragonstone, and he made his seat there, so it wasn't as if he was watching Aerys deteriorate day by day. I haven't talked to my brother in 4 years, and it has very little to do with me and almost everything to do with him and his wife. I'm not 'willfully ignorant" of their situation...we simply don't communicate with each other anymore for personal reasons. I could see the same for Rhaegar and Aerys.

I'm not at all saying that Rhaegar isn't flawed...but I don't see how one could automatically assume that he was willfully blinding himself to his father's madness when he very clearly was working to peacefully depose him since before the Harrenhall tourney.

[Sanset]

I think JonCon is an interesting character because he knows he's going to die, so he wants to die well. He wants to do something good with the time and strength he's got left. But that's it, I don't like him because, as it's been said up-thead, he's trying to be Tywin 2.0. So I disagree with JonCon in what is "a good thing to do". I think JonCon is selfish and he has serious pride and anger issues. Nevertheless, he's aware he's going to die sooner than later. Robb Stark was different, he didn't know, to give an example. One thing is to know we will die someday, another very different thing is to be expecting it, knowing it is going to be soon.

To synthesize the point: JonCon is interesting more for his present situation than because of his past or his personality. The life-time issue is the key, not his egocentric ways. We have lots of egos to analyze in asoiaf. I mean, his future has come. His future, now is only present, so he feels he's got to do something right now, because it's now or never. But he had lived holding too many grudges and resentment has soured him. So I don't know how is he going to overcome all that to die well, when he didn't live well. If GRRM is planning on writing some truelove(*) to light the way for him in this late hour, there is a chance but, he has been very jerkish so far.

Having said that, JonCon has said some nice things to Aegon about how his father would be proud of him, I mean JonCon is not a 100% jerk like Tywin was.

(*) It doesn't have to be the romantic kind of love.

ETA:

I think JonCon is a Carpe Diem kind of character, not because of the greyscale, because the moment he's been waiting for has come and it seems he's trying hard to seize the day.

[The Dragons Hand]

It may have been before, too...but we know that Aerys insulted his daughter by refusing to touch her when she was born because she 'smelled Dornish'.

I don't think it requires that Rhaegar be selfish or 'willfully ignorant' for him to not like his father...he was Prince of Dragonstone, and he made his seat there, so it wasn't as if he was watching Aerys deteriorate day by day. I haven't talked to my brother in 4 years, and it has very little to do with me and almost everything to do with him and his wife. I'm not 'willfully ignorant" of their situation...we simply don't communicate with each other anymore for personal reasons. I could see the same for Rhaegar and Aerys.

I'm not at all saying that Rhaegar isn't flawed...but I don't see how one could automatically assume that he was willfully blinding himself to his father's madness when he very clearly was working to peacefully depose him since before the Harrenhall tourney.

I'm certainly becoming more inclined to agree with you, if only that.

The wording "In the end" that JonCon uses has made me think of "Just before the battle of the trident" specifically around the time he (Rhaegar) tells Jaime to stay put. I was not consciously aware of that while making my previous comments, or at least I didn't have it in mind.

So when did Rhaegar start planning his Coup? If it is as you suggested, before the Harrenhal tourney *Which I'm inclined to believe it was* then I would imagine it was sometime after the Defiance of Duskendale ( http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Defiance_of_Duskendale ) at 277 AL. Rhaegar being born after Summerhall in 259 AL would be about seventeen or eighteen, certainly old enough for betrayal by Westerosi standards. The tourney of Harrenhal was in 281 AL, about four years later. Does that time-frame leave time for willing ignorance? Well, yes, but a reasonably amount of it. Of course the possibility was that Rhaegar was just creating a back-up plan to be put into action only if needed. Possibly Rhaegar saw the rest of the seven kingdoms making alliances and with Aerys' increasing lunacy he decided to "Seduce" Lyanna Stark, suring up the royalist forces *Albeit, ham-fistedly* being his logical defense while forfiling the "Song of ice and fire" It would be a critical misjudgement, as it sends Brandon to Kings Landing and with Aerys sitting in judgement it ultimately causes Robert's Rebellion.

So Rhaegar retains his enigmatic status, and in my mind is the only character whose inner-workings I'd like to see more than Howland Reed.

[sj4iy]

I'm certainly becoming more inclined to agree with you, if only that.

The wording "In the end" that JonCon uses has made me think of "Just before the battle of the trident" specifically around the time he (Rhaegar) tells Jaime to stay put. I was not consciously aware of that while making my previous comments, or at least I didn't have it in mind.

So when did Rhaegar start planning his Coup? If it is as you suggested, before the Harrenhal tourney *Which I'm inclined to believe it was* then I would imagine it was sometime after the Defiance of Duskendale ( http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Defiance_of_Duskendale ) at 277 AL. Rhaegar being born after Summerhall in 259 AL would be about seventeen or eighteen, certainly old enough for betrayal by Westerosi standards. The tourney of Harrenhal was in 281 AL, about four years later. Does that time-frame leave time for willing ignorance? Well, yes, but a reasonably amount of it. Of course the possibility was that Rhaegar was just creating a back-up plan to be put into action only if needed. Possibly Rhaegar saw the rest of the seven kingdoms making alliances and with Aerys' increasing lunacy he decided to "Seduce" Lyanna Stark, suring up the royalist forces *Albeit, ham-fistedly* being his logical defense while forfiling the "Song of ice and fire" It would be a critical misjudgement, as it sends Brandon to Kings Landing and with Aerys sitting in judgement it ultimately causes Robert's Rebellion.

So Rhaegar retains his enigmatic status, and in my mind is the only character whose inner-workings I'd like to see more than Howland Reed.

I would suggest that Rhaegar and Jon Con were not as close as Jon Con wishes they had been. Rhaegar may have been Jon Con's best friend, but the reverse certainly wasn't true...which I think leaves room for doubt on just how long Rhaegar knew about his father's madness. It doesn't look like Rhaegar included him in his 'inner circle', since he was not part of Rhaegar's coup with Lyanna, from which I would extrapolate that Jon Con probably didn't know about Rhaegar's involvement, either. A tourney that large would have taken a long time to organize and pay for, even for a prince, so I would assume that he had worked on it for a while before it came about.

Of course, this is mostly assumption, but I don't know how trustworthy a source Jon Con is when it comes to Rhaegar, since he wasn't in his inner circle and he's clearly biased.

[Beanis Buttershield]

Honestly, I think he's really pitiful, but I'm not exactly sorry for him. I think he has blinded himself into believe Aegon is real, even though deep down he probably doesn't. I don't really envision any kind of 'good ending' for him, as I think he will die long before the greyscale can kill him. I would be interested to see his reaction to R+L=J, but I don't think we'll ever get it, unfortunately.

Agreed. The greyscale forced him to put all his chips on the table and move, I predict he will die a disappointed man very soon in TWOW.

[HosteenOsteen]

I certainly don't think he's a 100 percent jerk, not nearly as bad as Tywin, and there is a lot of like/admire about him (and Tyrion clearly thinks so too). I just liked him less on the reread than on the initial read. Victarion's POV, two chapters late,r on the other hand grows on me,

I really have enjyoed all the interesting comments re Connington.

[IceFire125]

I don't expect big things from Jon Con, even if he has lacked some of the info we have had, just about everything he has done or thought so far has been wrong.

I expect a lot from JonCon, I believe like some here, that fAegon is JonCon's plot device.

Because...

“I failed the father,” he said, “but I will not fail the son.

Jon Targaryen.

I believe part of JonCon and Jaime's ultimate redemptive arc is to play an active influence in placing Jon on the throne.

For Jaime, a Kingslayer no more, but will be a Kingmaker.

For JonCon, not failing the son.

Both will fulfill a promise and duty that was lost to Rhaegar Targaryen.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Now I slept I can answer better...

Connington' back story is an indirect answer to the recurring question of what is the right way to deal with war in ASOIAF. Many always say that Dany shouldn't have done the things she did. Well, Connington, while he did torture some people (put men in cages), made threats and promises that they were very aware he wasn't going to keep. When Jaime threatens Edmure with sending his child to him via trebuchet, he doesn't want to do it, but he can play the part due to Tywin's reputation of "paying his debts". At the end Jaime took Riverrun without casualties. Jon did everything by the book because he didn't want to be a butcher and how he ended up? Exiled and poor, and he lost a battle that could have been decisive for the Loyalists. Sadly, if you want to win, you have to get your hands dirty.

Connington recently gained more interest with me just because of how well he knows the most nebulous character in the series: Rhaegar.

He remarks upon how "Even Rhaegar saw Aerys's madness in the end" which leads me to believe Rhaegar had a habit of making himself willingly ignorant to things that were unpleasant.

I don't think Rhaegar made himself ignorant. He might have been in bad terms with his father but he was still his father. When he speaks with Jaime, he notices how taking Jaime would cause Aerys distress, and he decides not to do it. That speaks volumes of Rhaegar's nature, tbh.

Interesting prospect, I've considered the idea of Jon Snow being named after JonCon, but not their meeting.

While many expect Howland Reed tell Jon about his parentage, he knows little about Rhaegar. Jon is probably one of the only men left who actually met Rhaegar close enough to tell Jon what kind of man his father really was.

I expect a lot from JonCon, I believe like some here, that fAegon is JonCon's plot device.

Because...

“I failed the father,” he said, “but I will not fail the son.

Jon Targaryen.

I believe part of JonCon and Jaime's ultimate redemptive arc is to play an active influence in placing Jon on the throne.

For Jaime, a Kingslayer no more, but will be a Kingmaker.

For JonCon, not failing the son.

Both will fulfill a promise and duty that was lost to Rhaegar Targaryen.

Yep. That quote is very telling. Sadly, that also means that Aegon won't survive the series which is sad, because the kid's ok. :(

[Ser Cold Fingers]

Now I slept I can answer better...

Connington' back story is an indirect answer to the recurring question of what is the right way to deal with war in ASOIAF. Many always say that Dany shouldn't have done the things she did. Well, Connington, while he did torture some people (put men in cages), made threats and promises that they were very aware he wasn't going to keep. When Jaime threatens Edmure with sending his child to him via trebuchet, he doesn't want to do it, but he can play the part due to Tywin's reputation of "paying his debts". At the end Jaime took Riverrun without casualties. Jon did everything by the book because he didn't want to be a butcher and how he ended up? Exiled and poor, and he lost a battle that could have been decisive for the Loyalists. Sadly, if you want to win, you have to get your hands dirty.

I don't think Rhaegar made himself ignorant. He might have been in bad terms with his father but he was still his father. When he speaks with Jaime, he notices how taking Jaime would cause Aerys distress, and he decides not to do it. That speaks volumes of Rhaegar's nature, tbh.

While many expect Howland Reed tell Jon about his parentage, he knows little about Rhaegar. Jon is probably one of the only men left who actually met Rhaegar close enough to tell Jon what kind of man his father really was.

Yep. That quote is very telling. Sadly, that also means that Aegon won't survive the series which is sad, because the kid's ok. :(

Abrazo grande?

Estoy practicando mi español.

Mi teclado no está ayudando. (¿Es así como se dice?)

[Ghosts Lunch]

Even if he suspects Aegon isn't quite real, he knows he is of some Targaryen blood at least going by the descriptions. At this point the Blackfyre issues are moot, Targaryens are few and far between and all of their blood has to band together, which is why Dynasty wise marriage to Dany makes sense, it makes all past issues of the Blackfyres moot as any progeny are legitimised through Dany's legit line

As for the guy, has to be considered he occupied the Office of Hand and has that "prestige" attached to him but really he is a glorified Stormlands bannerman and in terms of exile a glorified version of Jorah Mormont, at this level of politicking he is in over his head, which is where it's good that Varys/Illyrio are calling the shots. Really he is there as a General and Battlefield Commander and not an advisor on the level of Hand

People who occupy the Office of Hand and play the Grand politics game are usually good to have come from being Wardens or Liege Lords who have experience in managing conflicts not just on their lands but between bannermen and develop skills accordingly which they can then apply to the realm at large

It is quite fitting he is with the Golden Company, a lot of them practically are just making a last ditch attempt to use the vacuum of Wo5K and Cersei rule to get a foothold and some ancestral prestige back. It's fitting if he is a character is "stuck in the past", because the whole GC storyline is about a blast from the past rearing its head in every way, including Aegon whether he is a Blackfyre of legitimate

[Sanset]

Yep. That quote is very telling. Sadly, that also means that Aegon won't survive the series which is sad, because the kid's ok. :(

Well, as long as Aegon has time to marry Sansa and they have some time together, I mean, more time than Lyanna and Rhaegar, I'm ok with it. It's not that I like it, it's just that we know Winter is going to be a bloodshed, and Spring is not springtime has come with her flowers, it is "A Dream of Spring", so, another bloodshead. I'm ok if Aegon has enough time for the sweet part of the bittersweet ending or bittersweet cliffhanger, I trust GRRM plans.

[Ghosts Lunch]

I expect a lot from JonCon, I believe like some here, that fAegon is JonCon's plot device.

Because...

“I failed the father,” he said, “but I will not fail the son.

Jon Targaryen.

I believe part of JonCon and Jaime's ultimate redemptive arc is to play an active influence in placing Jon on the throne.

For Jaime, a Kingslayer no more, but will be a Kingmaker.

For JonCon, not failing the son.

Both will fulfill a promise and duty that was lost to Rhaegar Targaryen.

Interesting perspective, wouldn't have figured Jon Snow and JonCon would meet

[Sanset]

I expect a lot from JonCon, I believe like some here, that fAegon is JonCon's plot device.

Because...

“I failed the father,” he said, “but I will not fail the son.

Jon Targaryen.

I believe part of JonCon and Jaime's ultimate redemptive arc is to play an active influence in placing Jon on the throne.

For Jaime, a Kingslayer no more, but will be a Kingmaker.

For JonCon, not failing the son.

Both will fulfill a promise and duty that was lost to Rhaegar Targaryen.

I would like to see JonCon redeem himself as Jaime is doing, but JonCon is still holding grudges and slowly cooking his sour grumpy bad habits, that's the recipe for disaster.

[Good Guy Garlan]

Abrazo grande?

Estoy practicando mi español.

Mi teclado no está ayudando. (¿Es así como se dice?)

Big hug? Sí

I just hope JonCon doesn't pull a Mr. White (for you Tarantino fans) if he finds out Aegon is fake. It would be a nice dilemma to be sure, but it may prove too overwhelming for JonCon after everything he's been through

I still think his death, however it happens, will be accompanied by the bells ringing at KL, after a king's death

[sifth]

Jon isn't Aegon's father.

Which is sad, really.

As that might have spared Aegon's life if the imposter status came to light.

Jon is living for no one but a ghost.

The scary thing about Jon? Tyrion thinks he's just like Tywin but he's not a monster.

The problem is Jon thinks if he HAD been a monster, he might have saved his friend.

Dam it man, you're making me want to cry. Everything you said was pretty spot on about about Jon C. The guy really is a fascinating character.