R+L=J v.123

[FittleLinger]

Agreed. This would be a great thing to highlight in the OP, right at the beginning. And it's more or less what I'm trying to point out: that we should be up front in identifying the sexual relationship as an assumption made for the sake of the theory, while acknowledging the fact that it's not textually supported outside of King Robert's version of history.

Otherwise it seems as if we don't even recognize the key weakness of the theory - or worse, that we're trying to gloss over it and pretend it's not there.

Why didn't you address my other examples? Yeah, if the 'key weakness' of the theory is that GRRM didn't write the sentence "Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark had sex", then that's a pretty good theory.

I will continue following the same examples as in my previous post and give them their respective key weaknesses:

Roose killed Robb - key weakness - George never said that he was a northener, had a low voice, or liked leaching himself

Alchemist is Jaqen - key weakness - George never said that the Alchemist was a faceless man

Alleras is Sarella - key weakness - George never said, that Alleras was a woman.

[BearQueen87]

Ah, well. I kinda figured. Just thought I'd ask.

How about a caveat at or near the beginning of the OP, pointing out that Martin has never indicated or confirmed an actual sexual relationship between Rhaegar and Lyanna, but that for purposes of supporting the theory, we should go ahead and assume such a relationship existed, despite its absence from the text?

That is a foundational assumption for the theory, after all. And the only real support for it is Robert Baratheon's dubious claim that Robert raped Lyanna, based on we know not what evidence.

The dubious claim is the rape itself, not the act of sex.

George cannot tell you they had sex, because then you'd be looking for a child. Simple as that.

Stick THAT in the OP.

Rhaegar and Lyanna had a child, that is the person formally known as Jon Snow.

We assume Rhaegar and Lyanna had sex, but this is still being heavily debated by at least one member of the discussion thread.

(like this? Are you happy now?)

No. I don't and am not. If we start openly discrediting a very basic foundation of this theory then everyone and anyone who hates RLJ is going to want their two cents put in as well. I'm sorry but this thread is PRO RLJ! Can't believe I have to say that.

In support of this belief, these participants assume Rhaegar and Lyanna had sex, but this is still being heavily debated by at least one member of the discussion thread and is not clearly supported in Martin's first 5 books.

.

No, but that is incredibly unfair and frankly weird. We're not going to change the OP to fit every single person's demands or pet theories. It would go on FOREVER

Should Alia get a section about what she thinks was going on with Elia?

Should JCRB get one for JonCon?

How about Lady Gwyn for Lem?

Do IceFire and I get a section for how we think RLJ means Jon is the "great balance"

How about Mithras and Lightbringer...ooooh but see then I need a rebuttal since Mithras thinks Jon is the sole hero and I disagree.

[Ygrain]

Rhaegar and Lyanna had a child, that is the person formally known as Jon Snow.

We assume Rhaegar and Lyanna had sex, but this is still being heavily debated by at least one member of the discussion thread.

(like this? Are you happy now?)

You should have used Comic Sans for that statement.

In case it was meant even distantly seriously, I object. It is not the purpose of this thread to teach reading comprehension.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

You should have used Comic Sans for that statement.

You live and learn.

It is not the purpose of this thread to teach reading comprehension.

:agree:

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Absolutely not. Do not alter anything for the benefit of trolls.

Another good point for consideration. It would be helpful and informative to define "trolling" for purposes of these threads. This is the official, reserved place for discussion of RLJ theory in the Westeros forums. So if we want to make sure people only talk about it in certain ways - only say supportive things, for example, or discuss only the strengths, and never the weaknesses of the theory - then we should definitely put that in the OP.

I recently suggested a politely-phrased request that objections to the theory be taken elsewhere. I think BearQueen and I were discussing the idea - I'll see if I can dig that up, if that's the way we want to go...

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Because he thought he could get his father to allow it, even though it wasn't normally allowed.

The use of the word convinced is strange. Like I know I can have lunch, there's no reason to think I shouldn't be able to have lunch. So one wouldn't say "RumHam may have been convinced he could have lunch." Now if I for some reason thought I could do something that I normally wouldn't be able to do, like say travel back in time, then someone might say "RumHam may have been convinced he could travel back in time and ride a dinosaur."

Edit: As you say Aegon and Daeron were the ones who could say yes or no, for a variety of reasons. But the book specifically says "refused to permit him more than one wife" which suggests "you need special dispensation from the king to practice polygamy" is one of them.

Daemon needed permission for any marriage he would have wanted... Had it been his own notion to marry Rohanne (perhaps hoping that this would make Aegon IV favor him more), he would have needed Aegon's permission.

As it happens, the marriage to Rohanne was Aegon's own idea, but Daemon had different idea's... according to rumours, he wanted to marry Daenerys..

I'd find it a strange thing if Daemon would have been convinced Aegon would give his blessing to a polygamous marriage, if polygamous marriages were illegal. Why be convinced you'll be allowed to do something which is rather illegal, and has been outlawed within the last 150 years?

There's also this SSM, which could be relevant (I bolded what I thought could be relevant to this discussion):

"I was his lord...My right, to make his match" says Lord Hoster about Brynden. Does it mean that the lord can force anyone under his rule to marry whomever he wishes? Can the people in question legally break the commitments made for them by the lord (i.e. promises, betrothals) and what penalty can the lord visit on them for this? What if they just refuse to exchange the marriage vows, etc?

They can indeed refuse to take the vows, as the Blackfish did, but there are often severe consequences to this. The lord is certainly expected to arrange the matches for his own children and unmarried younger siblings. He does not necessarily arrange marriages for his vassal lords or household knights... but they would be wise to consult with him and respect his feelings. It would not be prudent for a vassal to marry one of his liege lord's enemies, for instance.

There is another SSM, I recall, about a lords son marrying a girl without his fathers consent (that was the one I was actually trying to find..). I seem to recall that the conclusion of that SSM was that, should the son marry a girl without his fathers consent, the father would have plenty of reasons to disinherit him, and such consequences...

I just can't find it, currently...

Daemon marrying against Aegon's wishes would not benefit him in any way, especially not if that marriage means taking a possible allegiance-marriage away from the king (Daenerys, had Aegon lived long enough to think about a match for her.)..

[King Tyrion XX]

There are quite a few beautiful analysis written on this forum, showing textual hints for such a relationship...

J. Star's blue rosetta rose, comes to mind, or am I misremembering here?

What is a blue rosetta rose?

[King Tyrion XX]

As well as everything suggesting that at least Rhaegar loved Lyanna, and the fact that Lyanna was found, dying in a "bloody bed," which is only used to refer to childbirth. Unless you're insinuating that the Father knocked up Lyanna and that Jon is the Faith's version of Jesus.

Can you list everything suggesting Rhaegar loved Lyanna?

I don't even know what lead you to come up with the Jesus line.

[RumHam]

Daemon needed permission for any marriage he would have wanted... Had it been his own notion to marry Rohanne (perhaps hoping that this would make Aegon IV favor him more), he would have needed Aegon's permission.

...

There's also this SSM, which could be relevant (I bolded what I thought could be relevant to this discussion):

There is another SSM, I recall, about a lords son marrying a girl without his fathers consent (that was the one I was actually trying to find..). I seem to recall that the conclusion of that SSM was that, should the son marry a girl without his fathers consent, the father would have plenty of reasons to disinherit him, and such consequences...

I just can't find it, currently...

Daemon marrying against Aegon's wishes would not benefit him in any way, especially not if that marriage means taking a possible allegiance-marriage away from the king (Daenerys, had Aegon lived long enough to think about a match for her.)..

I'm not disputing that he would need the kings permission to marry Daenerys or marry at all. Though as we've seen sometimes you can marry in secret and the king accepts it rather than disinherit you. I'm just pointing out that it explicitly says "refused to permit him more than one wife," as opposed to something like "refused to give him Daenerys' hand. If polygamy was an acceptable option for Targaryen princes why would they word it like that?

I'd find it a strange thing if Daemon would have been convinced Aegon would give his blessing to a polygamous marriage, if polygamous marriages were illegal. Why be convinced you'll be allowed to do something which is rather illegal, and has been outlawed within the last 150 years?

Well the king can do whatever he wants, he could even change the law. Just like the incestuous marriages arranged by the king (or occasionally accepted by him after the fact) were ok even though incest is illegal. I personally don't think Aegon actually promised him this. (remember this is only a claim made by some Blackfyre supporters, probably as part of their attempt to paint Daemon's motives as romantic rather than ambition. ) It seems unlikely that Aegon would allow his son to do something that he himself didn't dare do. But then you never know with that guy, legitimizing all his bastards was a pretty strange move too.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

What is a blue rosetta rose?

Just the misremembered name of a notable thread called:

Jon Snow and the Blue Winter Rosetta Stone

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Can you list everything suggesting Rhaegar loved Lyanna?

Everything?

How is...

Prince Rhaegar loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it.

ADwD 67 The Kingbreaker

for a start?

Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman's name.

ACoK 48 Daenerys IV

We are supposed to guess which name that might be. ;-)

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Another good point for consideration. It would be helpful and informative to define "trolling" for purposes of these threads. This is the official, reserved place for discussion of RLJ theory in the Westeros forums. So if we want to make sure people only talk about it in certain ways - only say supportive things, for example, or discuss only the strengths, and never the weaknesses of the theory - then we should definitely put that in the OP.

I recently suggested a politely-phrased request that objections to the theory be taken elsewhere. I think BearQueen and I were discussing the idea - I'll see if I can dig that up, if that's the way we want to go...

It was something like: "Please do not raise objections to the theory. We've probably already addressed your issue, and this thread is for theory supporters only."

Or we could go with something more official sounding, like:

"This thread does not welcome posts that dispute or undermine the premise that R+L=J. It is intended solely for people who already believe R+L=J and simply want to discuss the details."

Then we could alert the mods to this change in policy, so people can discuss the theory elsewhere without having to worry about their threads getting closed.

Any preferences on phrasing?

.

[Salazor Ahai Stormborn]

So Rhaegar and Lyanna might have been only playing cyvasse all this time when they were hidden?

I think the only question should be: "was sex consensual or not"? Was Robert right? But even this I think is clear: Lyanna died holding dead rose petals. I believe she didn't die only because of child birth, but because she didn't have the strength to fight, her body was weak since she received the news that Rhaegar had been killed.

[BearQueen87]

It was something like: "Please do not raise objections to the theory. We've probably already addressed your issue, and this thread is for theory supporters only."

Or we could go with something more official sounding, like:

"This thread does not welcome posts that dispute or undermine the premise that R+L=J. It is intended solely for people who already believe R+L=J and simply want to discuss the details."

Then we could alert the mods to this change in policy, so people can discuss the theory elsewhere without having to worry about their threads getting closed.

Any preferences on phrasing?

.

How unbelievably passive aggressive.

We have talked to you and others for many many many many threads now. Stop making us sound like we are irrational or mean spirited or anything else.

[markg171]

Where is it specifically stated that the lies he has been living were regarding the Sack, and that he is going to tell the truth?

Besides the Blackwood/Bracken correction :) and changing Valaar into Valarr :) perhaps it would be useful to mention Rhaenyra's three "Strong boys"? Three sons with at least one Targaryen parent who looked nothing like a Targaryen, in both hair and eye colour..

I posted it earlier but here you go

"We were not Sworn Brothers of the Kingsguard," Ned said. The time had come for Robert to hear the whole truth, he decided then and there. "Do you remember the Trident, Your Grace?"

"I won my crown there. How should I forget it?"

"You took a wound from Rhaegar," Ned reminded him. "So when the Targaryen host broke and ran, you gave the pursuit into my hands. The remnants of Rhaegar's army fled back to King's Landing. We followed. Aerys was in the Red Keep with several thousand loyalists. I expected to find the gates closed to us."

Robert gave an impatient shake of his head. "Instead you found that our men had already taken the city. What of it?"

"Not our men," Ned said patiently. "Lannister men. The lion of Lannister flew over the ramparts, not the crowned stag. And they had taken the city by treachery."

The war had raged for close to a year. Lords great and small had flocked to Robert's banners; others had remained loyal to Targaryen. The mighty Lannisters of Casterly Rock, the Wardens of the West, had remained aloof from the struggle, ignoring calls from both rebels and royalists. Aerys Targaryen must have thought that his gods had answered his prayers when Lord Tywin Lannister appeared before the gates of King's Landing with an army twelve thousand strong, professing loyalty. So the mad king had ordered his last mad act. He had opened his city to the lions at the gate.

"Treachery was a coin the Targaryens knew well," Robert said. The anger was building in him. "Lannister paid them back in kind. It was no less than they deserved. I shall not trouble my sleep over it."

"You were not there," Ned said, bitterness in his voice. Troubled sleep was no stranger to him. he had lived his lies for fourteen years, yet they still haunted him at night. "There was no honor in that conquest."

The whole conversation is about telling the truth of the Sack

[markg171]

It isn't known whether Ashara got pregnant at Harrenhal. With the rather large amount of time passing between Harrenhal and the Sack, combined with Barristan's statements of "stillborn girl" and "soon after", I'd not simply assume that Ashara getting pregnant occured at Harrenhal, but keep in mind that it might have occured later...

I'd read it that she got pregnant twice.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

What is a blue rosetta rose?

My memory failing to remember the correct name, linked by Ygrain:

Jon Snow and the Blue Winter Rosetta Stone

I'm not disputing that he would need the kings permission to marry Daenerys or marry at all. Though as we've seen sometimes you can marry in secret and the king accepts it rather than disinherit you. I'm just pointing out that it explicitly says "refused to permit him more than one wife," as opposed to something like "refused to give him Daenerys' hand. If polygamy was an acceptable option for Targaryen princes why would they word it like that?

But Daemon Waters/Blackfyre wasn't a Targaryen prince, now was he? ;)

Well the king can do whatever he wants, he could even change the law. Just like the incestuous marriages arranged by the king (or occasionally accepted by him after the fact) were ok even though incest is illegal. I personally don't think Aegon actually promised him this. (remember this is only a claim made by some Blackfyre supporters, probably as part of their attempt to paint Daemon's motives as romantic rather than ambition. ) It seems unlikely that Aegon would allow his son to do something that he himself didn't dare do. But then you never know with that guy, legitimizing all his bastards was a pretty strange move too.

I agree that it is unlikely that Aegon had promised Daemon this. The thing is, history sees it as a viable option, that this might have occured. Which should say something, regarding the legality of the whole thing.

Just the misremembered name of a notable thread called:

I will crawl into a corner now, until the shame goes away... :blushing:

[Ygrain]

So Rhaegar and Lyanna might have been only playing cyvasse all this time when they were hidden?

Oh, he was singing to her emo songs in the moonlight.

I think the only question should be: "was sex consensual or not"? Was Robert right? But even this I think is clear: Lyanna died holding dead rose petals. I believe she didn't die only because of child birth, but because she didn't have the strength to fight, her body was weak since she received the news that Rhaegar had been killed.

I think you're right that Rhaegar's death played a role in her own demise. I have proposed that under the impact of the news, she may have gone into labour somewhat pre-timely, before the child got in the right position, hence the birthing went badly.

I'm not an expert on the legend of Tristan and Iseult but in a beautiful story it inspired, Malady by Andrzej Sapkowski, it is said that Tristan's mother Blanchefleur went into labour and died birthing Tristan under the impact of the news of her husband's death, so we might have a parallel here.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I posted it earlier but here you go

The whole conversation is about telling the truth of the Sack

And yet, that passage can be read as those lies he has been living for fourteen years, having gotten nothing to do with the story he tells Robert about the Sack. It could be read as a new topic, as Robert starts to talk about troubled sleep, and Ned's thoughts go on about that, leading to the lies of 14 years.

Thanks for quoting, it would seem I had missed it earlier..

[Ygrain]

How unbelievably passive aggressive.

We have talked to you and others for many many many many threads now. Stop making us sound like we are irrational or mean spirited or anything else.

Never mind this. It's the usual tantrum we see here from time to time when shredding someone's fanfiction.