The Curious Case of the Dragon Prince and the Winter Rose Contd.

[History of Westeros]

One thing Rhaegar knows well: how easily an infant can die.

This is a new piece of info, from TWOIAF. I'm referring to the very large number of stillbirths and dead infants his parents produced after him.

Lyanna had help with the birthing, and it wasn't the Kingsguard! :)

[PrettyPig]

Along similar lines, one has to wonder how in the world someone as ultra-recognizable as Rhaegar even got Lyanna all the way to the TOJ, a distance of roughly a thousand miles, at a time when their disappearance would have been the hottest news on Westerosi CNN.

"Today is day twenty-four since Prince Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna Stark, and still there is no news of their whereabouts... King Aerys has suggested he wants to make Prince Rhaegar his Hand, going on to beg his vanished son in an interview 'Rhaegar, please come home.'"

A while back, I posted a theory in that other thread that addressed exactly this - how the hell Lyanna ended up in Dorne in the middle of a rebellion. It's my Fisherman's Daughter = Lyanna Stark proposal, which I can certainly repost here if anyone is interested, but in a nutshell it boils down to Ned (yes, Ned!) helping his newly pregnant sister escape the main area of conflict via ship out of the smuggler's cove of the Sisters.

When I mentioned that the Fisherman's Daughter recount in Dance serves as a clever GRRM mechanism for getting Lyanna to ToJ, I was told that the WAY of her getting to Dorne doesn't matter and that it has "no narrative purpose." *sips coffee*

[wolfmaid7]

This theory doesn't seem to work because Ned also remembers burying the Kingsguard, and he used the stones from the ToJ to do so. He remembers the exact # of cairns.

If he met them on the road, this means he hauled their bodies all the way back to the tower. It also means he hauled his dead companions there. This is, of course, not reasonable.

You say:

"but a simple watchtower which in these here parts rarely amounts to more than one bare room at the bottom, another reached by a ladder above and then a walkway above that to do the watching. All in all; very small, very squalid and very Spartan. There is no way it could have been used as a hideout for a prince, and a young [and latterly pregnant] girl attended by two and eventually three members of the famous kingsguard, bickering over whose turn it was to fetch the bread, milk and morning papers over a period of several months."

I agree with your general description of how watchtowers are. I don't know where you got the notion that it is out in the open, not particularly hidden, however. Where is the evidence for this?

If Rhaegar spent time there, what's to say he didn't spruce the place up a bit? In fact, given Lyanna's pregnancy we should assume he did exactly this rather than assuming something far more complicated.(and he would probably do this even without her pregnancy. He's the Prince and she's the daughter of a high lord. There's little reason to assume the place was as Spartan as it would've been initially).

Even if he didn't, one very common theory that I'm sure you're aware of is the notion that Wylla was present at the ToJ, as the notion of Lyanna pregnant with no one to aid with a birthing is ridiculous. This makes way more sense than the KG arguing over who will take care of the pregnant woman and/or child as well.

As far as the presence of "others", this is also easily explained. First, Wylla again. Second, Ned and his party going to Dorne to look for his sister... without a guide? Doubtful. On top of that there is the possibility for other serving men/women. A single groom or squire could've been there and remained unmentioned. The presence of such are often disregarded by Lords, even those such as Lord Eddard.

I'm also struck by your reliance on Ned's memories of words spoken as key pieces of evidence. The exact wording of what transpired between the two parties should be among the most questionable, while the details of locations should be among the least questionable, the least likely to be mis-remembered.

Furthermore, and this is a point I've never seen anywhere else: Ned remembers that Rhaegar called the place "the tower of joy". Ned clearly didn't learn that from Rhaegar himself. The best (and perhaps only) logical source is Lyanna. Lyanna told him, before she died, the name of the place. The idea that Ned is mistaking this for Starfall is too much of a stretch, I think.

There is a lot i wish to say about this,but i'll come back to it later,but you said something that gets thrown around a lot and i urge people to always double check what people say before it becomes common. I'm speaking of the naming and how Ned came by this knowledge which isn't as you depicted it.The quote went like this( and i will find the exact pg number but i read it when i was writing this OP)

Ned: "They said Rheagar called this place The tower of Joy",but for Ned it was a place of bitterness/sadness( last part paraphrased.

What Ned recalls is something said by whoever "they" were

No matter what, even if you don't think it absurd that Ned and Howland alone took care of this child, who is going to stand behind the idea that that no one helped Lyanna birth it?

Yet no reasonable theory I'm aware of can get around this, so we must accept that, despite the danger of "news getting out", this was taken care of somehow. Perhaps this Wylla person is extremely devout and Ned got her to swear a holy oath. Who knows? This is where we rely on GRRM to be creative, which is a safe bet.

We've got room for George to be creative with the control of information and rumor aspects of this story, but I don't see how you get around needing a birthing woman. That's too clear cut. It is both compelling from a "how could she possibly do it alone?" standpoint and from the standpoint of "how could Rhaegar leave her with no help?"

That's a lot of damage control and to quote Tyrion somebody always tells. Even if the beans are spilled initially and it's put a stop too.Case in point how Ned silenced the Ashara Dayne rumors at WF.Somebody always talks. There is noway the Kingsguard who were standing outside waitng for Ned an co to ride up delivered a baby at that tower. She would need to have had servants knowledgeable about the birthing bed.As i said if Ned found her in a bloody bed with gore and all that crap.No midwife was there,they would know better than to have Lyanna in that mess.

Plus according to Ned's memory a few people found him holding Lya's corpse who are the "they" .Plus he was in shock for a bit,unless someone had a wand and yelled "obliterate" i don't know how while waiting for the silent sisters to arrive and cleanse the body no one noticed blood coming from her "fandoon" and a baby in the bed crying for sure?

The most logical thing is that Ned's recollection of Lya's death predominatly "where" it happened is flawed.

[PrettyPig]

The most logical thing is that Ned's recollection of Lya's death predominatly "where" it happened is flawed.

Agreed. IMO the idea of tower of joy serving as both a place where Lyanna gave birth AND a place for a showdown at the Dornish corral is a mix of Ned's comingled memories in the dream and reader assumption. Everything I read leads me to think these are two separate places: Rhaegar's TOJ = Starfall, and KG TOJ = watchtower in Prince's Pass.

[Lady Meliora]

A while back, I posted a theory in that other thread that addressed exactly this - how the hell Lyanna ended up in Dorne in the middle of a rebellion. It's my Fisherman's Daughter = Lyanna Stark proposal, which I can certainly repost here if anyone is interested, but in a nutshell it boils down to Ned (yes, Ned!) helping his newly pregnant sister escape the main area of conflict via ship out of the smuggler's cove of the Sisters.

When I mentioned that the Fisherman's Daughter recount in Dance serves as a clever GRRM mechanism for getting Lyanna to ToJ, I was told that the WAY of her getting to Dorne doesn't matter and that it has "no narrative purpose." *sips coffee*

I'd be interested in this theory. While it might not "matter," I think it's interesting and could tell us a lot about both Rhaegar and Lyanna's motivations.

[finger]

This theory doesn't seem to work because Ned also remembers burying the Kingsguard, and he used the stones from the ToJ to do so. He remembers the exact # of cairns.

If he met them on the road, this means he hauled their bodies all the way back to the tower. It also means he hauled his dead companions there. This is, of course, not reasonable.

You say:

"but a simple watchtower which in these here parts rarely amounts to more than one bare room at the bottom, another reached by a ladder above and then a walkway above that to do the watching. All in all; very small, very squalid and very Spartan. There is no way it could have been used as a hideout for a prince, and a young [and latterly pregnant] girl attended by two and eventually three members of the famous kingsguard, bickering over whose turn it was to fetch the bread, milk and morning papers over a period of several months."

I agree with your general description of how watchtowers are. I don't know where you got the notion that it is out in the open, not particularly hidden, however. Where is the evidence for this?

If Rhaegar spent time there, what's to say he didn't spruce the place up a bit? In fact, given Lyanna's pregnancy we should assume he did exactly this rather than assuming something far more complicated.(and he would probably do this even without her pregnancy. He's the Prince and she's the daughter of a high lord. There's little reason to assume the place was as Spartan as it would've been initially).

Even if he didn't, one very common theory that I'm sure you're aware of is the notion that Wylla was present at the ToJ, as the notion of Lyanna pregnant with no one to aid with a birthing is ridiculous. This makes way more sense than the KG arguing over who will take care of the pregnant woman and/or child as well.

As far as the presence of "others", this is also easily explained. First, Wylla again. Second, Ned and his party going to Dorne to look for his sister... without a guide? Doubtful. On top of that there is the possibility for other serving men/women. A single groom or squire could've been there and remained unmentioned. The presence of such are often disregarded by Lords, even those such as Lord Eddard.

I'm also struck by your reliance on Ned's memories of words spoken as key pieces of evidence. The exact wording of what transpired between the two parties should be among the most questionable, while the details of locations should be among the least questionable, the least likely to be mis-remembered.

Furthermore, and this is a point I've never seen anywhere else: Ned remembers that Rhaegar called the place "the tower of joy". Ned clearly didn't learn that from Rhaegar himself. The best (and perhaps only) logical source is Lyanna. Lyanna told him, before she died, the name of the place. The idea that Ned is mistaking this for Starfall is too much of a stretch, I think.

Imo, the name Tower of Joy is both a clue and a deceit. It's a clue because it hints Rhaegar loved Lyanna, something that we came to know afters, and also that Lyanna corresponded. But it's a deceit because it hints they lived their love there. That's not convincing.

A common watchtower is on a prominent place where to watch. It can accommodate only very few people. It's not hidde, but rather all the opposite, since the sentinels are meant to light a fire on its top if they watch a strong enough threat. Rhaegar was a prince, that's not the place to take his paramour, or whatever. More less so for a lady to give birth.

Why the name, then? Well, Rhaegar went with Whent and Dayne. They'd looked for Lyanna near HH, the Whent's castle. Then they were probably heading to the Daynes domains, around Starfall. They had to cross the Reach, were they could be discovered, or something. The ToJ meant safety, they had reached secure land.

That stated, we should judge the facts, not the telling. No matter the wording, the KG were not defending the tower. If it were so, they'd be inside it, and Ned would have to attack it.

So, what were they doing? What's a wattchtower for? It's not valuable in itself, but it helps to defend something valuable, in this case, the Prince's Pass. they KG were near the tower, but outside the tower, blocking the pass. They don't really attack Ned, but they make clear that he has to defeat them if he want to cross the pass.

I think this can be safely concluded, they were blocking the pass.

Since that, we can study why they were doing it.

[finger]

I think this is very reasonable, and makes a decent amount of sense out of an otherwise nonsensical scenario. The Aegon question intrigues me. While we still don't have enough information to say positively that he was there, it does in many ways seem the most logical conclusion to draw - especially if we are to credit Rhaegar with being a "dutiful" and above all "able" planner. I even like your idea, finger, that sending Aegon south could have been Rhaegar's price for returning to King's Landing - though I'm not sure why Varys would have needed the tanner's son (the Pisswater Prince), if not to conceal Aegon's absence from the king. Still, what I like about it is that it makes sense to me that Rhaegar would have wanted to avoid a situation in which both he and his son were in the Red Keep at the same time.

Regardless, the endless debates and discussions concerning polygamy and the parsing of hypothetical KG vows look like a massive waste of time to me. They unnecessarily complicate reader theories, and wander far afield of Martin's own story. If Aegon were at Starfall (or headed that way), it would simplify a lot. Otherwise, Black Crow's ronin theory works just fine as an explanation for the encounter at the tower of joy.

.

I'd like to stress that Aegon is a consecuence. It might be, or we may come across a better story.

The basis is that the commonly accepted theory is flawed, and something more is needed so that the story makes sense. We know that Rhaegar and Aerys were at odds, and we suspect that R+L fled to Dorne. I also suspect that L asked R to save her from Robert, but this not too relevant.

Let us come back to the moment when Jon Con had lost the Battle of Bells. Aerys had named him because Rhaegar was not available. Now, his presence is badly needed. The time is ripe for negotiation and compromise.

1. Hightower was not delivering a message. That's plain, he was no courier. The more important it was what Aerys had to say to Rhaegar, Hightower was not needed to hand it.

It's said he was sent to find and fetch Rhaegar, but in fact he didn't fetch anyone or anything, because he remained in Dorne.

He didn't go to convince Rhaegar. That's so ludicrous that I won't waste my time discussing.

What else, then? He had to be carrying something or someone of outstanding value, that he had to deliver to Rhaegar.

When Rhaegar checked the "parcel", he went back to KL, leaving them behind.

2. The three KG were not (only) guarding Lyanna.

I don't think that deeming people stupid (barring Barristan :devil:) is a good method to intertpret a text. It's said that Rhaegar commanded them to stay with her. But it was Aerys who was mad, not Rhaegar. They were skilled at war. Hightower had commanded the royal forces when the Ninepenny Kings. Dayne did the same in the Kingswood. But Rhaegar left them, together with When, to guard Lyanna. Simply put, it's absurd.

Then, it has to be something more.

My take is that it has to do with the "parcel", and my best guess is it was Aegon.

But you may think different solutions, Viserys, dragon eggs,.. who knows?

Eta. LF's tapestries might be a clue. A thoght ally asks for something and he gets it. :dunno:

[Black Crow]

This theory doesn't seem to work because Ned also remembers burying the Kingsguard, and he used the stones from the ToJ to do so. He remembers the exact # of cairns.

If he met them on the road, this means he hauled their bodies all the way back to the tower. It also means he hauled his dead companions there. This is, of course, not reasonable.

Certainly isn't. We did discuss all of this a couple of heresies back, but basically I'm suggesting it was a rencounter; a formal meeting at the tower because it was a suitable landmark, whether it was pre-arranged or whether Lord Eddard's party simply saw them from the road waiting for them. I'm in no doubt that the fight took place at the tower.

You say:

"but a simple watchtower which in these here parts rarely amounts to more than one bare room at the bottom, another reached by a ladder above and then a walkway above that to do the watching. All in all; very small, very squalid and very Spartan. There is no way it could have been used as a hideout for a prince, and a young [and latterly pregnant] girl attended by two and eventually three members of the famous kingsguard, bickering over whose turn it was to fetch the bread, milk and morning papers over a period of several months."

I agree with your general description of how watchtowers are. I don't know where you got the notion that it is out in the open, not particularly hidden, however. Where is the evidence for this?

Its a watchtower and therefore by definition situated where it can watch [in this case the Princes Pass] and by the same token be seen

If Rhaegar spent time there, what's to say he didn't spruce the place up a bit? In fact, given Lyanna's pregnancy we should assume he did exactly this rather than assuming something far more complicated.(and he would probably do this even without her pregnancy. He's the Prince and she's the daughter of a high lord. There's little reason to assume the place was as Spartan as it would've been initially).

Even if he didn't, one very common theory that I'm sure you're aware of is the notion that Wylla was present at the ToJ, as the notion of Lyanna pregnant with no one to aid with a birthing is ridiculous. This makes way more sense than the KG arguing over who will take care of the pregnant woman and/or child as well.

As far as the presence of "others", this is also easily explained. First, Wylla again. Second, Ned and his party going to Dorne to look for his sister... without a guide? Doubtful. On top of that there is the possibility for other serving men/women. A single groom or squire could've been there and remained unmentioned. The presence of such are often disregarded by Lords, even those such as Lord Eddard.

I have no doubt that a Prince of the blood, three aristocratic guardsmen and a pregnant young girl would be accompanied by a number of attendants, including squires, grooms, cooks, bottle-washers and other servants, let alone at least one attendant on Lyanna and probably more, but once again that only underlines the impracticality of accommodating them in a lonely watchtower. Hence my contention that they were all most likely at Starfall and that Lyanna was still there at the time of her death

I'm also struck by your reliance on Ned's memories of words spoken as key pieces of evidence. The exact wording of what transpired between the two parties should be among the most questionable, while the details of locations should be among the least questionable, the least likely to be mis-remembered.

I'm sure that the R+L=J crowd would have a connipation fit if you suggested that, but whether Ned remembered the conversation word for word, the gist of it was clearly important to him.

Furthermore, and this is a point I've never seen anywhere else: Ned remembers that Rhaegar called the place "the tower of joy". Ned clearly didn't learn that from Rhaegar himself. The best (and perhaps only) logical source is Lyanna. Lyanna told him, before she died, the name of the place. The idea that Ned is mistaking this for Starfall is too much of a stretch, I think.

Lord Eddard remembers it as the place where his companions died and where the kings guard died. He didn't need to know that at the time and probably didn't learn of it until he reached Starfall and was told when he brought the news that Ser Arthur had been buried there. As for the "tower of joy", since it effectively marked the entrance into Dorne it is more likely that Rhaegar named it thus [no initial capitals and therefore not a proper name] because on seeing it he and his party were home free.

Conversely, although I think that explanation more plausible than it being the slum he'd lived in for nearly a year, its also worth bearing in mind that Tyrion is about the only other character to use the term joy and does so ironically.

[JNR]

who is going to stand behind the idea that that no one helped Lyanna birth it?

What are you suggesting might happen, if she had no very skilled medical talent helping her?

Do you think it's possible she might develop complications and die?

I certainly agree the above scenario would be completely predictable -- for months in advance -- and unfortunate, so if those responsible did nothing to prevent it, there's no way it could be argued they were very competently protecting her.

[JNR]

When I mentioned that the Fisherman's Daughter recount in Dance serves as a clever GRRM mechanism for getting Lyanna to ToJ, I was told that the WAY of her getting to Dorne doesn't matter and that it has "no narrative purpose." *sips coffee*

Ah, yes, as if narrative purpose could be tracked and quantified, using a narrativepurpose-ometer.

I'm familiar with that idea as well and have done a certain amount of amused coffee-sipping too.

You see, it becomes possible if and only if one is already certain one knows what GRRM has done, and will do in future. Then one can compare an idea against that overarching plan.

[History of Westeros]

On the location of the watchtower: I still don't get why anyone is assuming that the tower is near the entrance to Dorne. Armies have to go through the passes (or goat tracks). Ned and his small party were not limited like this.

Dorne used to be many kingdoms. There's no reason to assume this watchtower was responsible for keeping watch on the marches or the passes. It is a reasonable guess, but not something we can be certain of by any means. It could easily be a watchtower built on the border of two former Dornish kingdoms. Or to watch against local raiders. There are quite a few possibilities.

There are watchtowers all over the North, even along the Kingsroad, where there hasn't been war in centuries (heck, the Kingsroad hasn't even existed more than ~250 years). Arya finds a watchtower on the way to King's Landing while traveling with the family. Jaime sees watchtowers along the Trident. They are common.

Furthermore, the notion that men would be drawn to the tower is taking it too far. There are lots of watchtowers in the passes (and elsewhere). Why this particular one? If they were drawn to this one, should be be assuming Ned and co checked out all of these towers until they stumbled on the one that these KG were guarding? That's a huge amount of territory to cover for a small group of men.

Because we all seem to agree that the flow of information would be hard to prevent, it's likely enough someone talked. This is why Ned knew where to go, this is why he knew which tower to go to. Not because the Kingsguard stopped him in the passes, but because he knew where they were. This seems far more likely, given that we've already accepted the flow of information would be difficult to stop.

Also, the idea that three men could block access to Dorne I don't think is very credible, as well as odd. Does it make sense to guard the Stoneway at its most northern point, to prevent access to *Starfall*? Starfall is really quite far from the northernmost Stoneway, and while it is one of the more direct routes, it's hardly the only way.

A lot to cover here...

First, I want to dispute the idea that they could even block the pass if they wanted to: the tower was on a ridge, not in the pass.

Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge.

Otherwise, we're to assume Eddard and co. carried the corpses up the ridge for no apparent reason, and all the stones used to make the cairns.

Also, even if they could block the pass, how would the KG know to block *this* pass? There are plenty of ways into Dorne. It's weird that they would focus on this one area, *especially* if Lyanna is actually at Starfall. Wouldn't they reasonably suspect anyone heading for Starfall to take ship at Oldtown instead of traipsing through the Red Mountains?

The bigger question is, why would the KG separate from Lyanna in the first place?

I've given this a lot of thought since yesterday and I'm not as resistant to the idea of Starfall being a "forgotten" location as I initially was, but there are still some very large hurdles that I think make it unlikely.

First of all, the complete lack of memory of the place in any dream/thought. It makes sense for GRRM to leave out thoughts of Ashara and some of the other juicier details (such as the "promise"), but why conceal that Lyanna was at Starfall? I see no purpose to concealing this fact. I admit this is not a very strong objection, GRRM could have a clever reason for leaving it out. Still, the location doesn't seem all that important, given that we are told Ned goes there to deliver Dawn. It's not as if GRRM was trying to conceal the fact that Ned went to Starfall.

Second, the idea that Lyanna was at Starfall, in a vacuum, makes a lot of sense. However, the idea that the KG were not with her does not. In fact, this is probably the biggest problem with this theory overall, and right now it seems to be a very large issue.

One idea is the "blocking the pass" idea, which I think I've poked some big holes in, if others haven't already.

There is a lot i wish to say about this,but i'll come back to it later,but you said something that gets thrown around a lot and i urge people to always double check what people say before it becomes common. I'm speaking of the naming and how Ned came by this knowledge which isn't as you depicted it.The quote went like this( and i will find the exact pg number but i read it when i was writing this OP)

Ned: "They said Rheagar called this place The tower of Joy",but for Ned it was a place of bitterness/sadness( last part paraphrased.

What Ned recalls is something said by whoever "they" were

That's a lot of damage control and to quote Tyrion somebody always tells. Even if the beans are spilled initially and it's put a stop too.Case in point how Ned silenced the Ashara Dayne rumors at WF.Somebody always talks. There is noway the Kingsguard who were standing outside waitng for Ned an co to ride up delivered a baby at that tower. She would need to have had servants knowledgeable about the birthing bed.As i said if Ned found her in a bloody bed with gore and all that crap.No midwife was there,they would know better than to have Lyanna in that mess.

Plus according to Ned's memory a few people found him holding Lya's corpse who are the "they" .Plus he was in shock for a bit,unless someone had a wand and yelled "obliterate" i don't know how while waiting for the silent sisters to arrive and cleanse the body no one noticed blood coming from her "fandoon" and a baby in the bed crying for sure?

The most logical thing is that Ned's recollection of Lya's death predominatly "where" it happened is flawed.

Unfortunately you are making the mistake you are cautioning me against. There is no "they", unless my e-book differs from yours, this is the line:

It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. ((perhaps you are thinking of the "they" as in "they" found him holding her body etc)

I admit this does push it away from Lyanna a bit, I retract my certainty that she gave him the name. That said, one of the unnamed servants could've told him. Black Crow, this to me seems more likely than him learning the name at Starfall, or at least as likely. I can't accept that it's "more likely" he learned the name at Starfall, given that we both agree there must have been unnamed servants no matter the location, and we both agree that Ned was at the TOJ before Starfall regardless of whatever else we don't agree on right now.

[JNR]

On the location of the watchtower: I still don't get why anyone is assuming that the tower is near the entrance to Dorne. Armies have to go through the passes (or goat tracks). Ned and his small party were not limited like this.

It might be you're not aware the Maps book establishes this conclusively (assuming the Maps book can be trusted at all).

[History of Westeros]

It might be you're not aware the Maps book establishes this conclusively (assuming the Maps book can be trusted at all).

I do have the maps book, but probably hadn't looked at that for about 2 years! :) I had forgotten the location was specified. My apologies.

So we can easily discard my objection as to the TOJ's location. The rest of the objections remain for now.

[JNR]

As it happens, I agree with you about this key point:

it's likely enough someone talked. This is why Ned knew where to go

I think it can be worked out with reasonable confidence who that person was.

I also think Lyanna was at the TOJ, just as RLJ contends. Ned's dream sequence, in which he hears Lyanna scream his name, and the second time it switches to Lord Eddard, seems rather strongly to suggest she was there. Lyanna would not likely have bothered screaming Lord at her brother, and Vayon Poole would not likely have had the nerve to address Ned without his title.

You can also make the case -- I've made it myself, and so have many others -- that there was another person at the TOJ besides Lyanna. The line about how "they found him" holding Lyanna's hand after she died is certainly suggestive. But I don't think there can have been many, or Lyanna's pregnancy would be openly known, and Ned would have seen that huge problem coming, and never have thought the plan to raise Jon as his bastard would work.

The question of how Rhaegar got her there (if he did) without any public knowledge of his location getting out -- a process that would have taken months, and at a time when his disappearance was quite a big deal -- is not one I can answer to my own satisfaction at all.

It seems to me a major unsolved issue for any theory of Jon's parents, whether RLJ or not. And it is the kind of detail that I think GRRM would have handled; I have a lot of respect for him in this department.

[finger]

On the location of the watchtower: I still don't get why anyone is assuming that the tower is near the entrance to Dorne. Armies have to go through the passes (or goat tracks). Ned and his small party were not limited like this.

Dorne used to be many kingdoms. There's no reason to assume this watchtower was responsible for keeping watch on the marches or the passes. It is a reasonable guess, but not something we can be certain of by any means. It could easily be a watchtower built on the border of two former Dornish kingdoms. Or to watch against local raiders. There are quite a few possibilities.

There are watchtowers all over the North, even along the Kingsroad, where there hasn't been war in centuries (heck, the Kingsroad hasn't even existed more than ~250 years). Arya finds a watchtower on the way to King's Landing while traveling with the family. Jaime sees watchtowers along the Trident. They are common.

Furthermore, the notion that men would be drawn to the tower is taking it too far. There are lots of watchtowers in the passes (and elsewhere). Why this particular one? If they were drawn to this one, should be be assuming Ned and co checked out all of these towers until they stumbled on the one that these KG were guarding? That's a huge amount of territory to cover for a small group of men.

Because we all seem to agree that the flow of information would be hard to prevent, it's likely enough someone talked. This is why Ned knew where to go, this is why he knew which tower to go to. Not because the Kingsguard stopped him in the passes, but because he knew where they were. This seems far more likely, given that we've already accepted the flow of information would be difficult to stop.

Also, the idea that three men could block access to Dorne I don't think is very credible, as well as odd. Does it make sense to guard the Stoneway at its most northern point, to prevent access to *Starfall*? Starfall is really quite far from the northernmost Stoneway, and while it is one of the more direct routes, it's hardly the only way.

A lot to cover here...

First, I want to dispute the idea that they could even block the pass if they wanted to: the tower was on a ridge, not in the pass.

Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge.

Otherwise, we're to assume Eddard and co. carried the corpses up the ridge for no apparent reason, and all the stones used to make the cairns.

Also, even if they could block the pass, how would the KG know to block *this* pass? There are plenty of ways into Dorne. It's weird that they would focus on this one area, *especially* if Lyanna is actually at Starfall. Wouldn't they reasonably suspect anyone heading for Starfall to take ship at Oldtown instead of traipsing through the Red Mountains?

The bigger question is, why would the KG separate from Lyanna in the first place?

I've given this a lot of thought since yesterday and I'm not as resistant to the idea of Starfall being a "forgotten" location as I initially was, but there are still some very large hurdles that I think make it unlikely.

First of all, the complete lack of memory of the place in any dream/thought. It makes sense for GRRM to leave out thoughts of Ashara and some of the other juicier details (such as the "promise"), but why conceal that Lyanna was at Starfall? I see no purpose to concealing this fact. I admit this is not a very strong objection, GRRM could have a clever reason for leaving it out. Still, the location doesn't seem all that important, given that we are told Ned goes there to deliver Dawn. It's not as if GRRM was trying to conceal the fact that Ned went to Starfall.

Second, the idea that Lyanna was at Starfall, in a vacuum, makes a lot of sense. However, the idea that the KG were not with her does not. In fact, this is probably the biggest problem with this theory overall, and right now it seems to be a very large issue.

One idea is the "blocking the pass" idea, which I think I've poked some big holes in, if others haven't already.

Unfortunately you are making the mistake you are cautioning me against. There is no "they", unless my e-book differs from yours, this is the line:

It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. ((perhaps you are thinking of the "they" as in "they" found him holding her body etc)

I admit this does push it away from Lyanna a bit, I retract my certainty that she gave him the name. That said, one of the unnamed servants could've told him. Black Crow, this to me seems more likely than him learning the name at Starfall, or at least as likely. I can't accept that it's "more likely" he learned the name at Starfall, given that we both agree there must have been unnamed servants no matter the location, and we both agree that Ned was at the TOJ before Starfall regardless of whatever else we don't agree on right now.

You raise many issues,...I'll try to adress some.

We do know where the tower was. It's located in the map, at the entrance of the Prince's Pass. It was probably a landmark like "Dorne wellcomes you," you know.

The KG were alone and Ned's party travelled without servants or squires. They weren't touring the country, theirs were military missions. Ned was looking for her sister, and taking a train with him would have delayed his pace. As for the KG, they were doing their last stance.

That final fight has much to say. I've come over it several times. In early readings, it seemed to me that Ned puting them down. He was doing an account of battles he had won and the KG,s hadn't fought. Like, I looked for you, but you didn't show up. He was all but naming them cowards, and this didn't match the high opinion he expressed. He had to find out something during the fight. Something of the sort that theirs was some kind of ritual suicide, in order to die with the dinasty they'd sworn to protect.

But if you put Aegon into the equation, it smooths the stuff. They hadn't fought during the whole rebelion, and they should feel somewhat ashamed, even though they had a reason to stay whereever they were. When everything was lost, they found a chance to die with honour, and not uselessly. In fact, they delayed Ned while Aegon fled, then they sent him after the wrong trail, they sent him to Starfall to deliver Dawn and find Lyanna. They died with his secret and counted on Ned to avoid any damage to Starfall, without giving Aegon away. After all, Ned should be gratefull for having looked after his sister. Btw, in Starfall there would be a lot of "they" to find Ned by his siter.

I doubt that Ned would have dared the travel to Starfall after killing Arthur Dayne if Lyanna wasn't there. He'd rather use some Westeros Express, or something. Still, it's ackward: "I've killed Arthur, and I'm bringing his sword bak. May I see my sister?"

I can't see the problem with carrying the bodies uphill, any horse can do that, and it's easier that carring the stones. We don't know where they died, it was about the tower, but they'd move around while fighting. Besides, if Ned meant to pay hommage to the deads, it makes sense to buid the cairns where they could be watched.

[finger]

As it happens, I agree with you about this key point:

I think it can be worked out with reasonable confidence who that person was.

I also think Lyanna was at the TOJ, just as RLJ contends. Ned's dream sequence, in which he hears Lyanna scream his name, and the second time it switches to Lord Eddard, seems rather strongly to suggest she was there. Lyanna would not likely have bothered screaming Lord at her brother, and Vayon Poole would not likely have had the nerve to address Ned without his title.

You can also make the case -- I've made it myself, and so have many others -- that there was another person at the TOJ besides Lyanna. The line about how "they found him" holding Lyanna's hand after she died is certainly suggestive. But I don't think there can have been many, or Lyanna's pregnancy would be openly known, and Ned would have seen that huge problem coming, and never have thought the plan to raise Jon as his bastard would work.

The question of how Rhaegar got her there (if he did) without any public knowledge of his location getting out -- a process that would have taken months, and at a time when his disappearance was quite a big deal -- is not one I can answer to my own satisfaction at all.

It seems to me a major unsolved issue for any theory of Jon's parents, whether RLJ or not. And it is the kind of detail that I think GRRM would have handled; I have a lot of respect for him in this department.

Everybody is taking this for granted. What if a few people knew where they were? Suppose Aerys did, but Rhaegar refused to go back to KL. What would Aerys do? First, trying to make do without him. Then, try to convince him to come back. I think that's what he did. But Aerys had no advantage in telling everybody where Rhaegar was.

[wolfmaid7]

On the location of the watchtower: I still don't get why anyone is assuming that the tower is near the entrance to Dorne. Armies have to go through the passes (or goat tracks). Ned and his small party were not limited like this.

Dorne used to be many kingdoms. There's no reason to assume this watchtower was responsible for keeping watch on the marches or the passes. It is a reasonable guess, but not something we can be certain of by any means. It could easily be a watchtower built on the border of two former Dornish kingdoms. Or to watch against local raiders. There are quite a few possibilities.

There are watchtowers all over the North, even along the Kingsroad, where there hasn't been war in centuries (heck, the Kingsroad hasn't even existed more than ~250 years). Arya finds a watchtower on the way to King's Landing while traveling with the family. Jaime sees watchtowers along the Trident. They are common.

Furthermore, the notion that men would be drawn to the tower is taking it too far. There are lots of watchtowers in the passes (and elsewhere). Why this particular one? If they were drawn to this one, should be be assuming Ned and co checked out all of these towers until they stumbled on the one that these KG were guarding? That's a huge amount of territory to cover for a small group of men.

Because we all seem to agree that the flow of information would be hard to prevent, it's likely enough someone talked. This is why Ned knew where to go, this is why he knew which tower to go to. Not because the Kingsguard stopped him in the passes, but because he knew where they were. This seems far more likely, given that we've already accepted the flow of information would be difficult to stop.

Also, the idea that three men could block access to Dorne I don't think is very credible, as well as odd. Does it make sense to guard the Stoneway at its most northern point, to prevent access to *Starfall*? Starfall is really quite far from the northernmost Stoneway, and while it is one of the more direct routes, it's hardly the only way.

A lot to cover here...

First, I want to dispute the idea that they could even block the pass if they wanted to: the tower was on a ridge, not in the pass.

Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge.

Otherwise, we're to assume Eddard and co. carried the corpses up the ridge for no apparent reason, and all the stones used to make the cairns.

Also, even if they could block the pass, how would the KG know to block *this* pass? There are plenty of ways into Dorne. It's weird that they would focus on this one area, *especially* if Lyanna is actually at Starfall. Wouldn't they reasonably suspect anyone heading for Starfall to take ship at Oldtown instead of traipsing through the Red Mountains?

The bigger question is, why would the KG separate from Lyanna in the first place?

I've given this a lot of thought since yesterday and I'm not as resistant to the idea of Starfall being a "forgotten" location as I initially was, but there are still some very large hurdles that I think make it unlikely.

First of all, the complete lack of memory of the place in any dream/thought. It makes sense for GRRM to leave out thoughts of Ashara and some of the other juicier details (such as the "promise"), but why conceal that Lyanna was at Starfall? I see no purpose to concealing this fact. I admit this is not a very strong objection, GRRM could have a clever reason for leaving it out. Still, the location doesn't seem all that important, given that we are told Ned goes there to deliver Dawn. It's not as if GRRM was trying to conceal the fact that Ned went to Starfall.

Second, the idea that Lyanna was at Starfall, in a vacuum, makes a lot of sense. However, the idea that the KG were not with her does not. In fact, this is probably the biggest problem with this theory overall, and right now it seems to be a very large issue.

One idea is the "blocking the pass" idea, which I think I've poked some big holes in, if others haven't already.

Unfortunately you are making the mistake you are cautioning me against. There is no "they", unless my e-book differs from yours, this is the line:

It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. ((perhaps you are thinking of the "they" as in "they" found him holding her body etc)

I admit this does push it away from Lyanna a bit, I retract my certainty that she gave him the name. That said, one of the unnamed servants could've told him. Black Crow, this to me seems more likely than him learning the name at Starfall, or at least as likely. I can't accept that it's "more likely" he learned the name at Starfall, given that we both agree there must have been unnamed servants no matter the location, and we both agree that Ned was at the TOJ before Starfall regardless of whatever else we don't agree on right now.

Mine actually says "they" ,but i don't think it changes the point i was making in that it was seconhand info relayed to Ned.Infact "it" actually proves even more that we don't know when Rheagar was said to have named this Tower.It could have preceded the events there.Him and Elia could of had a little booty call,or maybe him and Jon Con who know.

I agree Ned and the 3Kgs were there i believe 100% that happened and he was there before going to Starfall.

As i said before no birth could have occured without having a midwife there or somebody who knew to deal with that situation. However,i am concerned about Lya's state any midwife worth her weight would not have a woman in such a yucky state so i'm guessing the prevailing theory is while Ned was fighting she was giving birth.Am i wrong?

As it happens, I agree with you about this key point:

I think it can be worked out with reasonable confidence who that person was.

I also think Lyanna was at the TOJ, just as RLJ contends. Ned's dream sequence, in which he hears Lyanna scream his name, and the second time it switches to Lord Eddard, seems rather strongly to suggest she was there. Lyanna would not likely have bothered screaming Lord at her brother, and Vayon Poole would not likely have had the nerve to address Ned without his title.

You can also make the case -- I've made it myself, and so have many others -- that there was another person at the TOJ besides Lyanna. The line about how "they found him" holding Lyanna's hand after she died is certainly suggestive. But I don't think there can have been many, or Lyanna's pregnancy would be openly known, and Ned would have seen that huge problem coming, and never have thought the plan to raise Jon as his bastard would work.

The question of how Rhaegar got her there (if he did) without any public knowledge of his location getting out -- a process that would have taken months, and at a time when his disappearance was quite a big deal -- is not one I can answer to my own satisfaction at all.

It seems to me a major unsolved issue for any theory of Jon's parents, whether RLJ or not. And it is the kind of detail that I think GRRM would have handled; I have a lot of respect for him in this department.

The only thing i'm not sure about is the location of where Lya was and the reason is because of the "they" found him holding her body. If Ned and Reed were the only ones left alive then some others knew to find him at that moment. It is suggestive.There's something else about his recolection of her dying that i find strange buti'll post the text in a bit.

Happy New Year to everyone :commie:

[History of Westeros]

Mine actually says "they" ,but i don't think it changes the point i was making in that it was seconhand info relayed to Ned.Infact "it" actually proves even more that we don't know when Rheagar was said to have named this Tower.It could have preceded the events there.Him and Elia could of had a little booty call,or maybe him and Jon Con who know.

I'll respond in greater detail, but I'm struck by the difference in the texts! That's a very interesting difference, and it's no wonder there is a bit of extra confusion if some of us are reading different words than the rest. As you say, it probably doesn't make a huge difference, but it's still a curiosity, and I wonder if there are other differences...

I just double checked my closest available hardcopy (2005, paperback, golden cover with upright striding wolf). It also says "it was said" rather than "they said".

Anyone else want to check their copies? (My e-books have all kinds of errors, but mostly just spelling, not changed/entirely different words like this).

I feel like the correct text is probably the more recent version. If anyone has a 2014 edition GoT, please look up the chapter and post. It is chapter 39, with a Tyrion chapter immediately before and a Cat chapter just after.

[Black Crow]

I have a 2011 edition with the words "It was said..."

Its also very explicit in the dream a couple of pages earlier that the fight took place outside the tower and not down on the road - "They waited before the round tower, the red mountains of Dorne at their backs, their white cloaks blowing in the wind..." And then later when Ned is awake he remembers he "...had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns on the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory..."

But once again note that it has the feel of a rencounter, with the two parties meeting by appointment. Its worth comparing the atmosphere of this scene with that chapter early in The Three Musketeers when they meet to settle their differences round the back of the convent, and why I suggest its much more like the OK Corral than the defence of the Alamo.

[wolfmaid7]

I'll respond in greater detail, but I'm struck by the difference in the texts! That's a very interesting difference, and it's no wonder there is a bit of extra confusion if some of us are reading different words than the rest. As you say, it probably doesn't make a huge difference, but it's still a curiosity, and I wonder if there are other differences...

I just double checked my closest available hardcopy (2005, paperback, golden cover with upright striding wolf). It also says "it was said" rather than "they said".

Anyone else want to check their copies? (My e-books have all kinds of errors, but mostly just spelling, not changed/entirely different words like this).

I feel like the correct text is probably the more recent version. If anyone has a 2014 edition GoT, please look up the chapter and post. It is chapter 39, with a Tyrion chapter immediately before and a Cat chapter just after.

The one I used was those downloadable ones, I didn't have my hard copy and so I just did a free download on one of those sites, which may have accounted for that.I"ll go with you and BC that"s why I say check.

Still it does indicate as I said that it was something that came by him not from a particular source that was identified. It was something that was said by whomever was saying it.