The Curious Case of the Dragon Prince and the Winter Rose Contd.

[Eira Seren]

There is this very interesting SSM:

Of course that one is really So Spake a Fan, who was paraphrasing GRRM, who almost certainly did not say "the central mystery of the book."

I like this one too:

This seems to reinforce the premise that Howland Reed was capable of riding a horse, which we also see rather bluntly stated here:

I continue to see people suggest a crannogman could not have done this amazing thing, but there's just no basis for such an assumption.

Two things: what, exactly, is the central mystery of the book? Does it really involve Jon in the way the RLJ theory assumes?

Second, could someone learn to ride a horse successfully in combat in a year? Reed would've had to do some serious training unless he and the horse are sympatico. Is the floating unplottable Greywater Watch large enough for running about on horses :)

[JNR]

Two things: what, exactly, is the central mystery of the book?

Don't know for sure. However, I do know I've never read an interview with GRRM going back to 1997 or so in which he said this series had a central mystery.

Second, could someone learn to ride a horse successfully in combat in a year?

We just don't know what Howland's background in riding was. We do know he rode with Ned to the ToJ, and we know he campaigned with Ned in battle for a year before that.

[Eira Seren]

Don't know for sure. However, I do know I've never read an interview with GRRM going back to 1997 or so in which he said this series had a central mystery.

We just don't know what Howland's background in riding was. We do know he rode with Ned to the ToJ, and we know he campaigned with Ned in battle for a year before that.

If Howland is able to communicate with critters, he'd surely be able to handle a horse at short notice, so it doesn't rule him out as the KOLT based on his horse-riding abilities. But that ground's gone over before? If Lyanna is the KOLT and got her brother's approval, she's certainly related to JNR Silvertonge. . .

Really, I think what Howland has is critical knowlege about what's going on in the North and the Isle of Faces. Jon's parents are likely going to be less concerning to him.

[Black Crow]

If Howland is able to communicate with critters, he'd surely be able to handle a horse at short notice, so it doesn't rule him out as the KOLT based on his horse-riding abilities. But that ground's gone over before? If Lyanna is the KOLT and got her brother's approval, she's certainly related to JNR Silvertonge. . .

Really, I think what Howland has is critical knowlege about what's going on in the North and the Isle of Faces. Jon's parents are likely going to be less concerning to him.

On the ability to ride a horse, it depends on why you are riding a horse. I would suggest that in mediaeval times most people were, like myself, perfectly capable of sitting on one to get from A to B. Riding a war horse or even one trained for jousting would be a different matter. One thing I would observe though with regards to the knight of the laughing tree is the degree of organisation needed, the resources required and the time to put them all together:

Whether or not the paint was still wet, that shield had to be found, paints had to be found and somebody had to paint it. The armour had to be found and here it gets more complicated because we're told it was made up of mismatched pieces so it wasn't a simple question of borrowing a set from someone of about the right size; the different pieces had to be sourced in different places in the confidence that they would fit at least reasonably well, and then at the last the "knight" had to be strapped into the armour and mounted on a trained horse that wasn't instantly recognisable.

None of this is impossible or even impractical, but somebody [and probably more than one somebody] other than the "knight" had to know

[aDanceWithFlagons]

If Howland is able to communicate with critters, he'd surely be able to handle a horse at short notice, so it doesn't rule him out as the KOLT based on his horse-riding abilities. But that ground's gone over before? If Lyanna is the KOLT and got her brother's approval, she's certainly related to JNR Silvertonge. . .

Really, I think what Howland has is critical knowlege about what's going on in the North and the Isle of Faces. Jon's parents are likely going to be less concerning to him.

I agree with you on Howland's knowledge. He knows something more important than Jon's parentage. His connection with the Isle, crannogman history with the Singers and knowing what Winterfell has forgotten surely is important to the story.

[Black Crow]

I agree with you on Howland's knowledge. He knows something more important than Jon's parentage. His connection with the Isle, crannogman history with the Singers and knowing what Winterfell has forgotten surely is important to the story.

Which again comes back to the question of Jon's mother rather than his parents. Howland Reed doesn't know the secret of R+L=J* but something much more important concerning the old Stark link to Winter.

* OK he might, but that's not what's so important that he's not allowed to reveal all just yet.

[JNR]

Which again comes back to the question of Jon's mother rather than his parents. Howland Reed doesn't know the secret of R+L=J* but something much more important concerning the old Stark link to Winter.

* OK he might, but that's not what's so important that he's not allowed to reveal all just yet.

Yeah, it's hard to discover the Reed oath to Winterfell without arriving at this idea. When a series is called ASOIAF and you get a direct reference to ice and fire, it's bound to mean something a little deeper and weightier than the identities of the two people who got busy and made a little Jon.

[Eira Seren]

On the ability to ride a horse, it depends on why you are riding a horse. I would suggest that in mediaeval times most people were, like myself, perfectly capable of sitting on one to get from A to B. Riding a war horse or even one trained for jousting would be a different matter. One thing I would observe though with regards to the knight of the laughing tree is the degree of organisation needed, the resources required and the time to put them all together:

Whether or not the paint was still wet, that shield had to be found, paints had to be found and somebody had to paint it. The armour had to be found and here it gets more complicated because we're told it was made up of mismatched pieces so it wasn't a simple question of borrowing a set from someone of about the right size; the different pieces had to be sourced in different places in the confidence that they would fit at least reasonably well, and then at the last the "knight" had to be strapped into the armour and mounted on a trained horse that wasn't instantly recognisable.

None of this is impossible or even impractical, but somebody [and probably more than one somebody] other than the "knight" had to know

'Xactly. I picture a precursor to the Scooby gang, sneaking into the armory tent to pilfer what they couldn't cobble together out of their own gear (or perhaps some things went missing from the squires, the sworn enemies). Hard not to view this as a teenage revenge sortie.

I agree with you on Howland's knowledge. He knows something more important than Jon's parentage. His connection with the Isle, crannogman history with the Singers and knowing what Winterfell has forgotten surely is important to the story.

Which again comes back to the question of Jon's mother rather than his parents. Howland Reed doesn't know the secret of R+L=J* but something much more important concerning the old Stark link to Winter.

* OK he might, but that's not what's so important that he's not allowed to reveal all just yet.

Yeah, it's hard to discover the Reed oath to Winterfell without arriving at this idea. When a series is called ASOIAF and you get a direct reference to ice and fire, it's bound to mean something a little deeper and weightier than the identities of the two people who got busy and made a little Jon.

Well, there we are then. We'll just add another panel for the next HeresyCon. . . :commie:

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

"Howl and Read."

Sounds like GRRM's standard response to many of his interview questions. What can we learn from this?

[Eira Seren]

"Howl and Read."

Sounds like GRRM's standard response to many of his interview questions. What can we learn from this?

:laugh: Should this also be "Read and Howl"? Probably he ok'd the world book to get us all of his back long enough to write something decent. . .

[superunknown5]

None of this is impossible or even impractical, but somebody [and probably more than one somebody] other than the "knight" had to know

Do you think it's possible Barristan was in on it or knew about it?

Barristan the Bold twice donned a mystery kngiht's armor, the first time when he was only ten. - Bran ASOS

If Barristan had something of a reputation as being a mystery knight, might the KoTLT have been inclined to seek his aid?

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Do you think it's possible Barristan was in on it or knew about it?

If Barristan had something of a reputation as being a mystery knight, might the KoTLT have been inclined to seek his aid?

Like the newly knighted Jaime Lannister who Aerys refused to allow to participate in the tourney?

[PrettyPig]

Whether or not the paint was still wet, that shield had to be found, paints had to be found and somebody had to paint it. The armour had to be found and here it gets more complicated because we're told it was made up of mismatched pieces so it wasn't a simple question of borrowing a set from someone of about the right size; the different pieces had to be sourced in different places in the confidence that they would fit at least reasonably well, and then at the last the "knight" had to be strapped into the armour and mounted on a trained horse that wasn't instantly recognisable.

None of this is impossible or even impractical, but somebody [and probably more than one somebody] other than the "knight" had to know

If you read through Meera's KotLT tale again, you'll see that at least twice in the story, Benjen specifically asks Howland if he (Howland) would like him (Benjen) to find him armor that fit so he could participate in the tourney {as himself, not a mystery knight}.

So, whether you peg Howland or Lyanna as the KotLT, I think it can be surmised from the tale that the "someone" with the knowledge of both the right pieces of armor to pilfer for a person of small stature and the likely sources of those pieces of armor is none other than Benjen Stark.

[hiraeth]

All these years I've been bothered by one question - if the KG were guarding L and J at the ToJ, why would they attack L's brother and J's uncle - reasoning with him would be expected... Even if he was one of the leaders of the rebellion, why would the KG assume that he would harm his sister and nephew... Something was terribly amiss during that encounter. His retinue was made only of the Northmen, why would any of them pose a threat to L or J... Even if there was a bad blood between the KG and Ned because they were at the opposite sides during the rebellion, if they were left there to guard R's child and the beloved (maybe even his wife), I would not expect them to attack her brother without a serious provocation on his part... Then again, I don't see three men guarding a pass as a plausible explanation for their fight... The same would go if AD was L's paramour and J's father - there was no reason Ned would try to harm his sister or his nephew...

[Sly Wren]

All these years I've been bothered by one question - if the KG were guarding L and J at the ToJ, why would they attack L's brother and J's uncle - reasoning with him would be expected... Even if he was one of the leaders of the rebellion, why would the KG assume that he would harm his sister and nephew... Something was terribly amiss during that encounter. His retinue was made only of the Northmen, why would any of them pose a threat to L or J... Even if there was a bad blood between the KG and Ned because they were at the opposite sides during the rebellion, if they were left there to guard R's child and the beloved (maybe even his wife), I would not expect them to attack her brother without a serious provocation on his part... Then again, I don't see three men guarding a pass as a plausible explanation for their fight... The same would go if AD was L's paramour and J's father - there was no reason Ned would try to harm his sister or his nephew...

They are the Kingsguard. They are sworn to protect the King. Ned just helped to depose and ultimately support (despite his loathing of Jaime) the death of the King. They still can Robert "Usurper." And not one of them is happy about being left off of the actual battlefield. If L and J are in that tower, Kingsguards are still Kingsguards. They finally get to fight men from the actual war, no matter how late. This is what they do. Ned doesn't seem eager for the fight. They do.