The Curious Case of the Dragon Prince and the Winter Rose Contd.

[Black Crow]

... I suspect that Rhaegar's whereabouts were not so unknown.

After meeting with Lyanna, they headed south, rather notoriously. Brandon thought they were in KL.

I don't think he did and that it may be worth looking at it from Aerys' point of view. Rhaegar has abducted Lyanna, the daughter of a powerful noble and run off with her. This means big trouble by any standard. No-one knows where they've gone so the Starks turn up at court loudly demanding justice done upon his son and the return of the dishonoured daughter. Aerys, already pissed off by his son's stupidity, loses it. Simple as that.

By abducting Lyanna in broad daylight Rhaegar has provoked a rebellion and all that Aerys can do is crush it, savagely, before it gets out of hand. He may be unhinged and his methods barbaric, but no mediaeval monarch could do otherwise in those circmstances.

[King Tyrion XX]

Oh wow. Awesome to see this resurrected :)

[avernite]

I don't think he did and that it may be worth looking at it from Aerys' point of view. Rhaegar has abducted Lyanna, the daughter of a powerful noble and run off with her. This means big trouble by any standard. No-one knows where they've gone so the Starks turn up at court loudly demanding justice done upon his son and the return of the dishonoured daughter. Aerys, already pissed off by his son's stupidity, loses it. Simple as that.

By abducting Lyanna in broad daylight Rhaegar has provoked a rebellion and all that Aerys can do is crush it, savagely, before it gets out of hand. He may be unhinged and his methods barbaric, but no mediaeval monarch could do otherwise in those circmstances.

Well, it's not THE only way. Brandon Stark probably has to be punished, but that's not the same as crushing a rebellion. Send Brandon to the Wall (or a slightly less harsh punishment, depending on what he really said), force Rhaegar to return Lyanna, and the whole thing fizzles. Probably what Rickard expected when he went to KL.

That would make Aerys seem decisive but fairish, ruin Rhaegar, and make Rickard Stark an annoyed vassal. Much better than causing 2 Lords to be forced into rebellion unless a third kills his guests.

[wolfmaid7]

Also, what's her face was bedridden after birthing Aegon so I'd say he was born at Dragonstone.

More and more i'm doubting the circumstances around Ageon's birth,specifically that anyone had seen him until his suppossed death. I'm not sure Elia was even pregnant a second time around.Let me go futher.

1. All sources put his conception and birth at Kings landing,unless they are in error. I haven't seen anything in the text about where he was born and the wiki all of them say Kings landing.

Then there's this interesting bit from Jon Con:

"A bride for our bright prince. Jon Connington remembered Prince Rhaegar’s wedding all too well.

Elia was never worthy of him. She was frail and sickly from the first, and childbirth only left her weaker.

After the birth of Princess Rhaenys, her mother had been bedridden for half a year, and Prince Aegon’s

birth had almost been the death of her. She would bear no more children, the maesters told Prince

Rhaegar afterward(Griffon Reborn,DWD).

So Elia was bedridden not after Aegon but after Rhaenys if Jon Con is to believed.

Ageon's birth was put at 281-282 which is really strange considering she was bed ridden for a year after her daughter( until 282) the year he would have been concieved in truth ( i shudder to think Rhaegar would try to get a child off his wife when she was bedridden).No one accurately can give account of Aegon's birth.

A light bulb just went off in my mind you follow where i'm going with this?

[finger]

I don't think he did and that it may be worth looking at it from Aerys' point of view. Rhaegar has abducted Lyanna, the daughter of a powerful noble and run off with her. This means big trouble by any standard. No-one knows where they've gone so the Starks turn up at court loudly demanding justice done upon his son and the return of the dishonoured daughter. Aerys, already pissed off by his son's stupidity, loses it. Simple as that.

By abducting Lyanna in broad daylight Rhaegar has provoked a rebellion and all that Aerys can do is crush it, savagely, before it gets out of hand. He may be unhinged and his methods barbaric, but no mediaeval monarch could do otherwise in those circmstances.

That's much so. Whatever his motivation, Rhaegar did screw it up.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

More and more i'm doubting the circumstances around Ageon's birth,specifically that anyone had seen him until his suppossed death. I'm not sure Elia was even pregnant a second time around.Let me go futher.

1. All sources put his conception and birth at Kings landing,unless they are in error. I haven't seen anything in the text about where he was born and the wiki all of them say Kings landing.

Then there's this interesting bit from Jon Con:

"A bride for our bright prince. Jon Connington remembered Prince Rhaegars wedding all too well.

Elia was never worthy of him. She was frail and sickly from the first, and childbirth only left her weaker.

After the birth of Princess Rhaenys, her mother had been bedridden for half a year, and Prince Aegons

birth had almost been the death of her. She would bear no more children, the maesters told Prince

Rhaegar afterward(Griffon Reborn,DWD).

So Elia was bedridden not after Aegon but after Rhaenys if Jon Con is to believed.

Ageon's birth was put at 281-282 which is really strange considering she was bed ridden for a year after her daughter( until 282) the year he would have been concieved in truth ( i shudder to think Rhaegar would try to get a child off his wife when she was bedridden).No one accurately can give account of Aegon's birth.

A light bulb just went off in my mind you follow where i'm going with this?

Not sure. I have a few ideas but they may not be what you have in mind. I'm sure you will spell it out later.

[alienarea]

More and more i'm doubting the circumstances around Ageon's birth,specifically that anyone had seen him until his suppossed death. I'm not sure Elia was even pregnant a second time around.Let me go futher.

1. All sources put his conception and birth at Kings landing,unless they are in error. I haven't seen anything in the text about where he was born and the wiki all of them say Kings landing.

Then there's this interesting bit from Jon Con:

"A bride for our bright prince. Jon Connington remembered Prince Rhaegars wedding all too well.

Elia was never worthy of him. She was frail and sickly from the first, and childbirth only left her weaker.

After the birth of Princess Rhaenys, her mother had been bedridden for half a year, and Prince Aegons

birth had almost been the death of her. She would bear no more children, the maesters told Prince

Rhaegar afterward(Griffon Reborn,DWD).

So Elia was bedridden not after Aegon but after Rhaenys if Jon Con is to believed.

Ageon's birth was put at 281-282 which is really strange considering she was bed ridden for a year after her daughter( until 282) the year he would have been concieved in truth ( i shudder to think Rhaegar would try to get a child off his wife when she was bedridden).No one accurately can give account of Aegon's birth.

A light bulb just went off in my mind you follow where i'm going with this?

Not sure it is what you are thinking, but that would point to Ashara Dayne as the mother of Aegon.

She was around Elia, her brother is Rhaegar's best friend, and so on.

That would also fit with Ashara (faking) suicide after a stillborn child (a fake rumor to cover up) and her lover (Rhaegar) having died.

Leads to Ashara being Septa Lemore and fAegon being Aegon.

Ashara being dishonored at Harrenhal might be another rumor to cover up, as her alleged suicide it comes from Barristan Selmy whose initials are BS, so I started to take his truths with a pound of salt.

Aegon being half-Dayne might entitle him to Dawn, so Jon Snow can die from the stabbing.

Aegon not being Elia's sets a precedent for R+L=J and explains wh Rhaegar was in Dorne.

The real Aegon might never have been in KL and yes, Varys knows.

Am I missing something?

[PrettyPig]

It's Monday morning and my brain isn't up to speed just yet, so I may need it spelled out.

Are you (wolfmaid or alienarea) suggesting that Rhaegar fathered Aegon on Ashara at ToHH, or that the child fathered on Ashara at ToHH by -unknown- was passed off as Elia's baby Aegon though Elia was never in fact pregnant?

[finger]

Not sure it is what you are thinking, but that would point to Ashara Dayne as the mother of Aegon.

She was around Elia, her brother is Rhaegar's best friend, and so on.

That would also fit with Ashara (faking) suicide after a stillborn child (a fake rumor to cover up) and her lover (Rhaegar) having died.

Leads to Ashara being Septa Lemore and fAegon being Aegon.

Ashara being dishonored at Harrenhal might be another rumor to cover up, as her alleged suicide it comes from Barristan Selmy whose initials are BS, so I started to take his truths with a pound of salt.

Aegon being half-Dayne might entitle him to Dawn, so Jon Snow can die from the stabbing.

Aegon not being Elia's sets a precedent for R+L=J and explains wh Rhaegar was in Dorne.

The real Aegon might never have been in KL and yes, Varys knows.

Am I missing something?

Septa Lemore is some years older than Ashara would.

I don't really know who she might be. What happened to Whent's sister? :dunno:

Eta: I'd rather look at the Blackfyres

[wolfmaid7]

I haven't finished writing it up yet and finding all the text but in sum;I'm doubting that Elia was preggers at all after Rhaenys. I don't think Ashara Dayne comes into play,but there are some inconsistencies in the Aegon story. I was thinking because i've always heard that Elia was bedridden after Aegon,but no she was bedridden after Rhaenys and i'm thinking after that would Rhaegar risk getting her preggers again.Or was it infact that she couldn't and didn't get pregnant after Rhaenys.

[History of Westeros]

I don't think he did and that it may be worth looking at it from Aerys' point of view. Rhaegar has abducted Lyanna, the daughter of a powerful noble and run off with her. This means big trouble by any standard. No-one knows where they've gone so the Starks turn up at court loudly demanding justice done upon his son and the return of the dishonoured daughter. Aerys, already pissed off by his son's stupidity, loses it. Simple as that.

By abducting Lyanna in broad daylight Rhaegar has provoked a rebellion and all that Aerys can do is crush it, savagely, before it gets out of hand. He may be unhinged and his methods barbaric, but no mediaeval monarch could do otherwise in those circmstances.

I agree with those disagreeing with this. Black Crow, you are basically arguing that Aerys' only choice of response to Rhaegar's transgression was escalate the situation... towards *war*. and that's exactly what happened.

Even without the barbarity, (in other words, pretend Aerys had them executed humanely) the chance of a revolt is still very high.

Aerys could've offered to foster Viserys at Winterfell, to amend for the insult, or any number of other things that didn't lead to war.

If the result of your actions is war, surely you've made a mistake. Rhaegar's mistake was not an automatic cause for war, merely a perilous spot that *could* lead to such. Aerys didn't choose the option that was best for him, he choose one of the worst,. because the result was so predictable.

[alienarea]

I agree with those disagreeing with this. Black Crow, you are basically arguing that Aerys' only choice of response to Rhaegar's transgression was escalate the situation... towards *war*. and that's exactly what happened.

Even without the barbarity, (in other words, pretend Aerys had them executed humanely) the chance of a revolt is still very high.

Aerys could've offered to foster Viserys at Winterfell, to amend for the insult, or any number of other things that didn't lead to war.

If the result of your actions is war, surely you've made a mistake. Rhaegar's mistake was not an automatic cause for war, merely a perilous spot that *could* lead to such. Aerys didn't choose the option that was best for him, he choose one of the worst,. because the result was so predictable.

Any chance at a smart solution (Rhaegar divorces Elia because she can't give him more children and marries Lyanna, for example) was crushed by Brandon "I'm with stupid" Stark rushing to King's Landing and cursing Rhaegar.

[Black Crow]

Divorcing Elia would mean war with Dorne

[JNR]

Divorcing Elia would mean war with Dorne

Yes, I'm inclined to think if Rhaegar could have escaped that marriage he'd have done it before it took place. Aerys forced his hand.

Black Crow's remark also explains why... whenever I read the theory that Elia would have been fine with Rhaegar marrying and having children with Lyanna... I just chuckle.

Such a plan would never serve the best interest either of her own children or the family into which she was born. Her reaction to it should logically be similar to, but stronger than, Catelyn's reaction to Jon.

[alienarea]

Divorcing Elia would mean war with Dorne

As I wrote, this was an example.

[Dragon Dust]

Not sure it is what you are thinking, but that would point to Ashara Dayne as the mother of Aegon.

She was around Elia, her brother is Rhaegar's best friend, and so on.

That would also fit with Ashara (faking) suicide after a stillborn child (a fake rumor to cover up) and her lover (Rhaegar) having died.

Leads to Ashara being Septa Lemore and fAegon being Aegon.

Ashara being dishonored at Harrenhal might be another rumor to cover up, as her alleged suicide it comes from Barristan Selmy whose initials are BS, so I started to take his truths with a pound of salt.

Aegon being half-Dayne might entitle him to Dawn, so Jon Snow can die from the stabbing.

Aegon not being Elia's sets a precedent for R+L=J and explains wh Rhaegar was in Dorne.

The real Aegon might never have been in KL and yes, Varys knows.

Am I missing something?

My apologies if this has already been ruled out.

Is it at all possible that Edric Dayne is the spawn of Rhaegar and Lyanna?

Is it also possible that Jon might be the bastard of King Aerys and Ashara? (Selmy refers to Ashara being raped at the tourney.)

What is the chances that Lyanna had twins and that Howland Reed took one with him? (Selmy refers to Ashara whose daughter died in childbirth)

Lastly, who is Darkstar and could he be the father of Edric? Where does Darkstar fit in? He seems to be loyal to the Targaryens based on his features and the attack on Myrcella.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

My apologies if this has already been ruled out.

(1) Is it at all possible that Edric Dayne is the spawn of Rhaegar and Lyanna?

(2) Is it also possible that Jon might be the bastard of King Aerys and Ashara? (Selmy refers to Ashara being raped at the tourney.)

(3) What is the chances that Lyanna had twins and that Howland Reed took one with him? (Selmy refers to Ashara whose daughter died in childbirth)

(4) Lastly, who is Darkstar and could he be the father of Edric? Where does Darkstar fit in? He seems to be loyal to the Targaryens based on his features and the attack on Myrcella.

Interesting questions - some with clear answers, others not so clear. Here's my take:

• No. Edric Dayne is too young to be Rhaegar or Lyanna's child. In ASOS (chapter 43), young Ned tells us he's only 12 years old... meaning he's about Sansa's age. At that time - Jon, Robb, Margaery Tyrell, and Meera Reed are all said to be sixteen yrs old. (See also this wiki page for a list of characters thought to have been born in the year 283 AC - during or immediately after Robert's Rebellion.)
• Unlikely. Best estimates place the Tourney at Harrenhal about a year before Brandon's fateful ride to King's Landing. The Rebellion didn't start until after Brandon and Lord Rickard were killed, and it lasted approximately another year. Ned and Catelyn were married 2-3 months into the Rebellion, so Robb would have been born right around the end of the war. Even if standard guesses about the time of Jon's birth were wrong... a conception at the Harrenhal tourney would mean he was a full year older than Robb, and a year's difference in age would be difficult to conceal. Instead, Catelyn believes that Jon could be the son of some woman Ned met during the war, and Ned's standing claim is that he "dishonored" Catelyn with Jon's mother. So to all appearances, Jon is basically the same age as Robb - and possibly a bit younger.
• Twin children of Lyanna might be possible. There's no way to rule it out. On the other hand, I think it would come as a complete surprise - there have been no hints to that effect, so far. About the only thing to go on would be the fact that Meera is about the same age as Jon. Not sure how Ashara would figure in, though. Seems clear to me that Jon is Lyanna's child. And if Ashara's child was conceived at Harrenhal, then we'd have to deal with the age difference discussed above.
• I'm not up to speed on all the Darkstar theories, though I know Frey Family Reunion (among others perhaps) has suggested he might have some Targ blood. To be honest, I'm not convinced he's anything more than he appears to be... but he does have a cool nickname.

Welcome to the Curious Case. :)

[JNR]

I'm not up to speed on all the Darkstar theories, though I know Frey Family Reunion (among others perhaps) has suggested he might have some Targ blood. To be honest, I'm not convinced he's anything more than he appears to be... but he does have a cool nickname.

Darkstar could conceivably be the father of Edric based on their ages -- Darkstar is in his mid-late twenties, if you buy the idea that the app is canon.

However, re his nickname, I cannot agree that it is cool. I'm not at all sure "men call him that."

I picture him leaping out in front of his family wearing his underwear and a cape, when he was about six, and announcing "I am Darkstar!!" and other people reminding him of this event sufficiently often that the name stuck.

Nor is it clear to me he is of the night. I think the odds are fair he is only of the afternoon doldrums. He might be of the nap, though.

[alienarea]

Darkstar could conceivably be the father of Edric based on their ages -- Darkstar is in his mid-late twenties, if you buy the idea that the app is canon.

However, re his nickname, I cannot agree that it is cool. I'm not at all sure "men call him that."

I picture him leaping out in front of his family wearing his underwear and a cape, when he was about six, and announcing "I am Darkstar!!" and other people reminding him of this event sufficiently often that the name stuck.

Nor is it clear to me he is of the night. I think the odds are fair he is only of the afternoon doldrums. He might be of the nap, though.

Still I like the song Dark Star by Poliça. And the SF movie.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Darkstar could conceivably be the father of Edric based on their ages -- Darkstar is in his mid-late twenties, if you buy the idea that the app is canon.

However, re his nickname, I cannot agree that it is cool. I'm not at all sure "men call him that."

I picture him leaping out in front of his family wearing his underwear and a cape, when he was about six, and announcing "I am Darkstar!!" and other people reminding him of this event sufficiently often that the name stuck.

Nor is it clear to me he is of the night. I think the odds are fair he is only of the afternoon doldrums. He might be of the nap, though.

What are you, a bloody wildling? (Damn contrarians...)

Still I like the song Dark Star by Poliça. And the SF movie.

How about... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsPeZhyTV5c