The Curious Case of the Dragon Prince and the Winter Rose Contd.

[wolfmaid7]

Unrelated i guess or chuck it up to another Curious note. In one of Cat's POV she remebered hearing this acccount.

"They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys's Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat.

If the above is true,how and why did Howland save his life against Arthur. If it was single combat then Howland acted dishonorably by helping Ned.Or is this yet another case of people lying.They just made this shit up because it sounded cool.Unreliable :dunno:

[JNR]

Meanwhile, it seems Ned Stark gained quite a reputation as a battle commander, considering he only participated in two significant battles that we know of.

If you mean his rep as of GOT, he was also directly involved in handling the Greyjoy Rebellion on Pyke.

And of course as the man chosen to run Robert's vanguard heading into King's Landing, he probably earned some street cred even though Tywin had already skinned that particular cat.

And then as Wolfmaid points out, there is his rep re the TOJ. That's a bit interesting since we can be pretty confident nobody who survived that event did much talking... but he did return Dawn to Starfall. This suggestive act probably put ideas in heads about Ned Stark, Superwarrior, inaccurate though they may have been.

ETA: The fact that House Dayne has retained continuous possession of Dawn for thousands of years is pretty damn impressive. You'd think such a weapon would be coveted by all, as it was by the Smiling Knight, and hence at least one Sword of the Morning would have been defeated and Dawn lost to the victor. But no.

[finger]

The quote comes from Jaime... and if there was anybody Aerys apparently did trust not to stab him in the back, it was Jaime.

I have to say, these Targs don't seem to do the best job of assessing the world, figuring out threats, and making plans that work.

Of course you're right that Jaime could be an unreliable narrator. But that still leaves as unexplained why Aerys would have appointed somebody like Connington as his Hand, while simultaneously misleading Jaime and the rest of Westeros into believing he (Aerys) didn't know where Rhaegar was.

I don't think dismissing POV's as inaccurate is a good method, but the young Jaime is not fully reliable. The other KG felt free of patronizing him for anything he could say, do or even be thinking. They clearly didn't consider him, and they wouldn't put him into their plans, or inform him of their intent. Otoh, it's known from Tyrion that he wasn't a thoughtful person, he scarcely thought, and when he did, it was about her sister, he just trained for tourneys. He even recognizes these faults when he loses his swordhand. In sum, he was there and what he saw in plain sight can be believed, but his judgements can't be fully trusted because he didn't give a darn for all but anything.

To start with, Aerys was mad, and his naming of Hands was erratic at best. Then, he was at odds with Rhaegar. Even being mad, he had better say he didn't know where Rhaegar was that Rhaegar refused to listen to his summons. In this line, naming a Rhaegar's man as JonCon could be an attemp to make Rhaegar come and take sides with his friend.

As for Elia and the children, I recall they were in Dragonstone, and Aerys had them moved to KL to use them as hostages. That had to upset Rhaegar. It adds to my view that he claimed them to be released, if he was to come back.

[finger]

My reasoning has typically been based on the fact that Jon and Robb are said to have been approximately the same age... and that this would suggest that Lyanna became pregnant around the same time Ned married Catelyn. So, after Ned made it to Winterfell, assembled all his bannermen, and made it south to Riverrun for a wedding. Of course, by the time both kids are 14, a difference of several months in age would hardly warrant mention - so perhaps there is still wiggle room there

I consider B. Selmy to be a particularly obvious unreliable narrator... in his particular way. As I've observed before, the two "legacy" members of the KG (Sers Barristan and Jaime) each appear especially suspect as relators of history. Neither was in position to know anything significant about Rhaegar's activity, motives, or plans, and each for a different (and contrasting) reason. One was an experienced KG member, with an established history and reputation for unbending honor; the other was brand new to the cohort, an obvious tool of the king, with no track record for trustworthiness when it came to secrets.

As I say... I consider Jaime to be an obviously unreliable narrator in certain respects. He knows things that others do not (e.g., what happened in that throne room immediately before Ned rode in), but generally speaking he was not privy to anyone's secrets or hidden motives, unless you count Aerys... and in that case, even what he did know can be safely assumed to have been known by more sophisticated players (e.g., Varys, and perhaps Pycelle, at a minimum).

That said - I do find it rather amazing that Aerys (1) gave Jaime a sword, (2) insisted on remaining (alone) in the same room with the kid, then (3) thought ordering him to kill his own father was a safe bet. 'Course, I'm sure at that point Aerys felt he was running short of options. Still, I wouldn't call it trust... Desperation, maybe. Or madness.

:agree:

BS and Jaime were outstanding warriors without brains.

BS was never given any responsibility. He would get involved in the most dangerous missions and it was a miracle he got out alive.

Under Hightower, he faced Mailys Blackfyre and killed him, being badly wounded in the intent.

Aerys' rescue form Duskendale is crazy. Tywin seemed to allow it in order to get rid of Aerys, and they nearly make themselves killed.

His judgements as Queensguard are ludicrous.

And Jaime,... when Tywin gave him an army to take Riverrun, he screwed it up at the first chance.

He only thought of his sister. The poor one was actually a toy in other people's hands.

Only Robert, who was as brainlees, kept them by his side.

That said, it's their POV we have. Filtering is needed but they can't be dismissed.

[finger]

In general, sure. On this particular point I don't know why we'd consider him unreliable.

All these years later he still seems to think Rhaegar couldn't be found, so nothing he's heard since then has led him to change his mind. If Rhaegar's location was in fact public knowledge, Jaime somehow excluded, then I don't see how that could be the case.

Or, if one supposes most people didn't know where Rhaegar was, but Aerys did, and if it was at the TOJ... then it is totally perplexing to me that Aerys never summoned his three sworn and loyal KG back to defend him long before the Sack.

I mean, granted nobody called him the Sane King, but still.

On the subject of Rhaegar's love for his Lady Lyanna, absolutely. I can't see any reason to suppose that Ser Barristan ever so much as saw Rhaegar and Lyanna together as a couple... not once in his life. I guess he might somehow have been Rhaegar's BFF on that particular subject, but I doubt it given his own belief that Rhaegar never trusted him as Rhaegar had trusted Dayne.

I've also read your thoughts in another thread concerning the idea Selmy might have thrown the Harrenhal tourney at Rhaegar's command, and I thought it was pretty well argued.

:idea: I guess you've decifered that SSM,... they didn't choose their orders, if Rhaegar commanded them to something, they had to obey.

It seems only Robert didn't know R+L. :lol:

[finger]

It's a strange situation. I recall Robert was wounded prior to the BofB, but I also recall he slew Myles Mooton. Did he take more wounds? -- and did that slow the rebellion for which he was the spearpoint? Not sure. A six month delay or so before the Trident seems to be indicated and that seems awfully long. So there are some oddities here.

One can also set aside Lyanna or Dorne for a minute and just ask: Where could Rhaegar go, that his location would not be known? Was he just sitting in a private location somewhere? If so, was it close to his last known location? What was that location? If it wasn't close how did he get from A to B without being noticed? Was the crown prince camping incognito in the woods, really?

Can we trust the World book's account that Rhaegar fell upon Lyanna ten leagues from Harrenhal? Or is the maester who said that slyly acknowledging that it's only propaganda when he calls it a "well-known tale?" Why is it that never in the series proper do we hear anybody refer to this tale?

So many questions.

This keeps me wondering. Westeros is a rather large land where people can hide from or find each other at will.

Rhaegar sets out with half a dozen people, finds Lyanna ten leagues out of HH, and takes her up at swordpoint...no way.

For instance,...L and R had mannaged to keep in touch. L asked R to save her from Robert, and told him where and when to find her. Better, isn't it.

Rhaegar went with Dayne and Whent, and they didn't stay at HH. WF was no choice. Elia was in Dragonstone, so it was nor ellegant to take L there. And Dayne... where was Dayne from?

I guess they knew where Rhaegar was, but he just refused to move over.

[finger]

Its a connection true...

This .Its just the decisions made and how Rhaegar handled shit...Aerys madness was evident even to him i don't understand why he took them back to KL? This part i didn't get.According to the WB Rhaegar wasn't at KL,nor was he at Dragonstone with his young son Ageon,wife and Daughter. My question is? How and who took them back to KL? Did Aerys kidnap his familiy?

Is there any wonder that "he knows nothing"

I had mentioned to Snow Fyre chorus that i had a sense about Dayne.If all we've theorized thus far about the timing of Jon is true and i know i can't say Rhaegar was at the TOJ for a whole year then one of the KG did the deed and Dayne seems most likely and i'm drawing loose connections here nothing has hit me yet.But So far he was the one that stood out to me more.

Then the next questions ofcourse is where the hell was Rhaegar if he wasn't at Dragonstone,Kingslanding or at the TOJ all the time and i really don't see with all the crap happening that he would be :dunno:

I may be mistaken, but I thought it was Aerys who had Elia and the children come from Dragostone.

My take is they were someplace in Dayne's dominion. Starfall could be embarrassing, and there were too many people living there. I'd bet for a lesser castle nearby, High Hermitage, or the sort of. They'd moved to Starfall between Rhaegar's parting and Lyanna's giving birth.

[alienarea]

If, and that is still a very big if, Arthur Dayne and Lyanna Stark are the parents of Jon Snow, it helps explain how Lyanna's pregnancy remained unnoticed in Dorne, wherever she was. The Dayne's took care of it, protecting Arthur's fame. Edric 'Ned' Dayne might be a clue as well.

The Dayne's give Jon to Ned Stark to raise him as his son so he can pick up Dawn when he's grown.

[rule of fantasy: a famous sword needs to be used]

[finger]

Unrelated i guess or chuck it up to another Curious note. In one of Cat's POV she remebered hearing this acccount.

"They whispered of Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, deadliest of the seven knights of Aerys's Kingsguard, and of how their young lord had slain him in single combat.

If the above is true,how and why did Howland save his life against Arthur. If it was single combat then Howland acted dishonorably by helping Ned.Or is this yet another case of people lying.They just made this shit up because it sounded cool.Unreliable :dunno:

Jon Snow fighted Quorin Halfhand. When Quorin seemed to kill him, Ghost bit his leg, and Quorin left his neck unprotected. Then, Jon killed him.

I have a theory that Jon's deeds tell what happened in Dorne when he was born.

Jon=Ned

Quorin=AD

Ghost=HR

In fact Quorin never meant to kill Jon, I guess he cornered him in order to encourage him to attack.

[avernite]

Apart from the great battles of RR, there's all the minor fighting between loyalists and localists. We hear of no such fighting in the North, but maybe Ned fought someone there to great acclaim? Or maybe in the Riverlands?

And yeah, Arthur Dayne seems like just the kind of person Ned might hide as parent of Jon Snow, but... it doesn't seem like the thing you need to hide from EVERYONE. Tell a handful of confidantes while denying all the rumours, maybe, but not 'tell absolutely noone and risk your own misfortune burying it forever'.

Then again we know Ned has terrible judgement. Pissing off Catelyn for no real reason just to satisfy the honour of Arthur Dayne? It wouldn't be THAT shocking ;)

[JNR]

:idea: I guess you've decifered that SSM,... they didn't choose their orders, if Rhaegar commanded them to something, they had to obey.

Certainly. Just as the KG obey Tyrion in CoK, even though he isn't the king but merely a member of the royal family and Hand.

However, if Aerys, the KG's actual king, had ordered them to do a different thing from Rhaegar, I think they would have followed Aerys' orders. For instance "come to King's Landing immediately, because Rhaegar just left for the Trident, and I only have one KG, and there's this rebellion going on that seems designed to kill me."

So it seems likely to me the KG never got any such orders from Aerys... and that's because Aerys never knew where they were, and before that, he never knew where Rhaegar was, just as he claimed.

This keeps me wondering. Westeros is a rather large land where people can hide from or find each other at will.

In theory. Someone like Beric, certainly.

Rhaegar, however, was the crown prince, had silver-gold hair, purple eyes, and a face that seems universally to have made women fall backwards with their legs open. This is not a guy who can check into an inn, pretend to be a sellsword, and get away with it.

Particularly not if he's running around with a Northern-looking girl and two distinguished knights and a few weeks before Rhaegar Targaryen infamously kidnapped Lyanna Stark.

He could, I suppose, have spent his entire time camping...

[alienarea]

Maybe I should start a thread for this ...

Mayhaps all of this is Rhaegar vs Aerys?

Assuming Rhaegar is having ambitions and becomes aware of Lord Rickard's "southron ambitions" or vice versa. Harrenhal tourney is set up to talk the talk. This has been speculated before. But Lord Rickard wasn't in Harrenhal. Who did the talk?

Rhaegar crowns Lyanna as a signal of acceptance to Lord Rickard. He then takes Lyanna "ten leagues from Harrenhal" as a hostage to get the coup rolling. Elia and her children are not in KL at this point in time.

Unfortunately Brandon "I'm with stupid" Stark was left in the dark and fucks everything up. Lord Rickard rides to KL and expects to meet Rhaegar and the coup to happen. But Aerys found out, orders Elia and children to KL (does that fit from the timeline?) and executes the Starks.

At this time Rhaegar is basically hiding in Dorne with Whent and Dayne. Rebellion starts.

After the first battles it becomes clear that Rhaegar's attempted coup has failed and Rhaegar and Aerys have a common enemy. Meanwhile Arthur Dayne and Lyanna Stark fall in love because.

Rhaegar makes a deal, he will return to KL with troops from Dorne in exchange for his heir Aegon. Hightower delivers Aegon, Rhaegar leaves the three KG. His last order: "If something happens to me hold up the enemy until Aegon is safe."

Rhaegar dies, KL gets sacked, Lyanna gives birth. Ned ends the siege, rushes south, ToJ happens because of oaths and honor. Ned brings Dawn to Starfall, Lyanna dies. Ned picks up Jon, the Dayne's cover up.

Who knows? Varys.

[Drogo]

Is GRRM therefore hinting that in his “fever dream” Ned is conflating two related but different memories; that of the fight and that of Lyanna’s death afterwards, not in an old watchtower in the Prince’s Pass, but somewhere else entirely and not improbably Starfall?

Hold that thought and consider, because transferring Lyanna to Starfall actually resolves a lot of practical problems. After the fight at the tower, Ned and Howland bury their dead and then do carry on to Starfall, ostensibly to return Ser Arthur Dayne’s sword:

So suppose there they are told that Lyanna is dying. Ned goes to her alone and sits with her long after she has died. Eventually Howland and some of the others intrude upon his grief and take him away so that the body can be washed and prepared for the long journey home.

It’s not only an interpretation that makes sense, but one which makes a lot more sense than star-crossed lovers spending all that time at the tower. In the first place the tower in question wasn't a remote hideaway by any stretch of the imagination, but a watchtower sitting on a ridge overlooking one of only two roads into Dorne. It was not after all a castle, or even a holdfast, but a simple watchtower which in these here parts rarely amounts to more than one bare room at the bottom, another reached by a ladder above and then a walkway above that to do the watching. All in all; very small, very squalid and very Spartan. There is no way it could have been used as a hideout for a prince, and a young [and latterly pregnant] girl attended by two and eventually three members of the famous kingsguard, bickering over whose turn it was to fetch the bread, milk and morning papers over a period of several months.

Re-locating Lyanna to Starfall on the other hand gives us an explanation for Ned and Howland travelling there after burying the dead. It explains the presence of “others” when Lyanna dies and afterwards shipping both straight home from Starfall similarly makes a lot more sense than making a detour to Starfall from the Dornish Marches with a corpse and a suckling babe. After all, are we really expected to believe that having found a dying Lyanna and a new-born babe in an old tower at the northern end of the pass, Ned then took them both all the way round by Starfall to tip the chivalrous bit and return Arthur's sword? A splendid thing to do later, perhaps years later, but at that point in time he surely had far more pressing things to worry about; which suggests there was a far more important reason for going there.

I wonder if it is possible that Ned set out for the Tower of Joy expecting to find his sister but only found the Kingsguard. The fight occurs and Ned travels onwards to Starfall based possibly off of Dayne's dying words? Arriving and returning the sword Ned finds Lyanna in the throws of childbirth. The pregnancy goes wrong because she births fraternal twin boys Jon and Aegon of the Rhyone. Lyanna makes Ned promise to safeguard them but baby Aegon is clearly a Targ while Jon resembles his mother. Thus only Jon could live safely in Westeros.

Ned and Ashara then plan to fake Ashara's suicide and instead arrange for her to travel to Essos and raise young Aegon in secret. Not to return to rule but just to live. Varys learns of Ashara's so-called suicide and doesn't by it. Does some investigating and locates Ashara. Keeps tabs on them for a few years while commmunicating with Illyrio, they eventually come up with the plan after 4-6 years of scheming. Varys arranges for Griff to meet up with Ashara. She agrees to the plot without mentioning Jon, confessing that Lyanna gave birth to Aegon and Aegon alone. They fabricate the pisswater prince story to tell Aegon when he begins asking.

A very rough theory for sure but the thought just struck me when reading Black Crow's idea. Honestly, I believed that Aegon is false since the moment we was introduced ( probably a Blackfyre or Brightflame) based off of Quaithe's. But I think him being brother to Jon from Starfall is more likely then Varys switiching princes at the zero hour.

[Cladinator]

I have a theory...

There's a whole lot of those around here.....

[wolfmaid7]

I may be mistaken, but I thought it was Aerys who had Elia and the children come from Dragostone.

My take is they were someplace in Dayne's dominion. Starfall could be embarrassing, and there were too many people living there. I'd bet for a lesser castle nearby, High Hermitage, or the sort of. They'd moved to Starfall between Rhaegar's parting and Lyanna's giving birth.

I was trying to figure out how and when this happened.If Ageon was born at KL then soon after they went back to Dorne but i saw nothing about that.Timeline though is telling in this because the text says Ageon was still at Elia's breast when the Mountain killed them.So didn't Rheagar go back with them to Dorne and if he did,he didn't stay after he saw them home. :dunno: . I'm trying to find some account of that. It seems Rheagar left quickly after Ageon was born???

If, and that is still a very big if, Arthur Dayne and Lyanna Stark are the parents of Jon Snow, it helps explain how Lyanna's pregnancy remained unnoticed in Dorne, wherever she was. The Dayne's took care of it, protecting Arthur's fame. Edric 'Ned' Dayne might be a clue as well.

The Dayne's give Jon to Ned Stark to raise him as his son so he can pick up Dawn when he's grown.

[rule of fantasy: a famous sword needs to be used]

Page 235 of the WB the Dorne section has a nice bit by Archmaster Brude ( Dornish himself) about Dorne in relation to the North. It's very easy to view hot and fire with only the Targs in mind hell weve been hit over the head with Fire equates "only" Targs.Its not the case though Dorne also fits that motif but without the Dragons ofcourse.I for one thinks its not bad to look at Dayne as a possible baby daddy.

Jon Snow fighted Quorin Halfhand. When Quorin seemed to kill him, Ghost bit his leg, and Quorin left his neck unprotected. Then, Jon killed him.

I have a theory that Jon's deeds tell what happened in Dorne when he was born.

Jon=Ned

Quorin=AD

Ghost=HR

In fact Quorin never meant to kill Jon, I guess he cornered him in order to encourage him to attack.

I'm looking forward to hear this.

There's a whole lot of those around here.....

That's a good thing...It means people feel comfortable to talk about them without being bashed.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

@wolfmaid7 - I believe Aegon was born at Dragonstone and was conceived at KL.

[wolfmaid7]

@wolfmaid7 - I believe Aegon was born at Dragonstone and was conceived at KL.

I have been furiously trying to find that. I found the Aemon reference to the comet and it being seen over KL when Ageon was concieved.But i didn't find reference to his birth on Dragonstone because i thought so too. However the wiki puts his birth at KL in 281/282. That's all i got. Anyone has a text putting Ageon's birth at Dragonstone?

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Yeah, When Rhaegar went missing he could not be found on Dragonstone with his wire and kids so it's not really a fact I guess? Although with Aerys dismissal of Rhaegar's daughter as smelling Dornish, I could see the family staying away from the King.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Also, what's her face was bedridden after birthing Aegon so I'd say he was born at Dragonstone.

[finger]

Certainly. Just as the KG obey Tyrion in CoK, even though he isn't the king but merely a member of the royal family and Hand.

However, if Aerys, the KG's actual king, had ordered them to do a different thing from Rhaegar, I think they would have followed Aerys' orders. For instance "come to King's Landing immediately, because Rhaegar just left for the Trident, and I only have one KG, and there's this rebellion going on that seems designed to kill me."

So it seems likely to me the KG never got any such orders from Aerys... and that's because Aerys never knew where they were, and before that, he never knew where Rhaegar was, just as he claimed.

In theory. Someone like Beric, certainly.

Rhaegar, however, was the crown prince, had silver-gold hair, purple eyes, and a face that seems universally to have made women fall backwards with their legs open. This is not a guy who can check into an inn, pretend to be a sellsword, and get away with it.

Particularly not if he's running around with a Northern-looking girl and two distinguished knights and a few weeks before Rhaegar Targaryen infamously kidnapped Lyanna Stark.

He could, I suppose, have spent his entire time camping...

Maybe. Or not.

Before the RR, Rhaegar and Tywin had in them to oust Aerys. Aerys might consider the three were Rhaegar's partisans. The deeds of a mad paranoid are difficult to judge.

Otoh, I suspect that Rhaegar's whereabouts were not so unknown.

After meeting with Lyanna, they headed south, rather notoriously. Brandon thought they were in KL.

With more hindsight, they could have have been found but, what then? He was the Prince of Dragonstone and, if he had taken shelter in the Dayne's dominion, Aerys only could send a message and wait to be heeded. As he did with Jon Arryn.

Soon after, RR started and Aerys had to call his lords to fight. If he wanted them to keep fealty, he'd better not tell his own son was refusing him. Moreover, he'd better have his son on his side asap, whatever the price.

But I feel we're going out topic. This may be a new curious case, like, Aerys, Rhaegar and Doktor Freud.