R+L=J v.124

[BearQueen87]

It makes more sense to base our conclusions off of what we're told, then to ignore what we're told simply because it's possibly incomplete. Until we're told otherwise or get more information, we must base our conclusions of the events at the TOJ based off Ned's dream. And Ned's dream tells us that they weren't informed. So yes, it's a safe conclusion until there's new information that can challenge it. And why would GRRM be informing us, when all of that information was already known to us? The only people who didn't know here were the KG.

I didn't exactly expect this to go over well here. If the KG weren't up to date on the events of the war, then they never chose to abandon Viserys in favour of a potential child of Rhaegar's who might have been the heir. They would simply have been there as they were following orders and didn't know any better.

Then ask yourself this: if there is no child in that tower (legit or not...ignore that for now) then why in the name of sanity are three KG, including the LC of the KG, standing by some run down tower in the mountains of Dorne?

[JonSnow4President]

Then ask yourself this: if there is no child in that tower (legit or not...ignore that for now) then why in the name of sanity are three KG, including the LC of the KG, standing by some run down tower in the mountains of Dorne?

Duh. They were following the orders of a dead crown prince, whose authority to give orders extended from a dead king. And they're going to specifically call out that the new heir, Viserys, has protection that's not of the Kingsguard.

[markg171]

But it doesn't. I told my dad on the phone yesterday that A&M hired one of the best DC's over the past few years away from LSU. My dad already knew, and I expected him to know. Nothing about the verb tell suggests the knowledge of the knower. As far as woe to the usurper, the royal army broke at Rhaegar's death. Arthur fucking Dayne alongside Rhaegar's side probably results in Robert's death.

There is NO indication of surprise anywhere. There is NO indication of them receiving the information for the first time. In fact, they respond in a manner that suggests they aren't surprised, and already knew the information. I'll take that over a bullshit argument based on Ned "telling" them.

The Dornish, 1/4 of the army, had already broken and fled before Rhaegar died. Rhaegar dying was simply the last of the commanders being cut down. The ones of the flanks, Barristan, Darry, and Lewyn, were already cut down. Rhaegar, the commander of the centre, was killed by Robert. The army was leaderless at the point Rhaegar died and is why the entire army broke, but desertion had already occurred in a huge amount before he ever died.

Arthur Dayne also probably would not have fought alongside Rhaegar. Dayne was Dornish, and the Dornish didn't want to be there so he probably would have had joint command of the Dornish troops with Lewyn to try and keep them fighting. In which he would have dealt with Lyn, and probably eventually have been in a similar position to Barristan where he'll kill many people, but be brought down from his wounds. Barristan was of an equal with Dayne according to Martin and Barristan was cut down so I'm not sure why you would assume he wouldn't be when his equivalent was.

As for you saying they're not surprised if this is new information, why would they be? When Ned, one of the leaders of the rebellion, and 6 northerner rebels show up instead of Rhaegar or any royalist after Rhaegar went off to go end the rebellion, it should become damn clear that something has gone wrong. There won't be any surprise at the details of Ned's story. The simple fact that he's there at all is everything they need to know.

That aside, if you're trying to say that there is no surprise anywhere, and no indication of them receiving information for the first time, then why doesn't Arthur understand that the war is over? Because if Arthur knew that Rhaegar, Aerys, and Aegon were dead, that all 6 Lord Paramounts had proclaimed Robert king, and that Dorne had been smashed at the Trident, effectively making Robert the unquestioned ruler of the 7 Kingdoms, then why does Arthur not understand that the war is over like Ned does? We know that Ned knows all of this information and knows that the war is over. We do not know if Arthur knows all of this information until Ned tells him, but we do know that he doesn't understand that the war is done. So the most logical conclusion, ignoring even the mountain of evidence I already provided showcasing how the dialogue says that they didn't know, the simple fact that Arthur hasn't pieced together the fact that his side has unquestionably lost, means that it's all new information to them and they haven't had time to contemplate it.

[markg171]

Then ask yourself this: if there is no child in that tower (legit or not...ignore that for now) then why in the name of sanity are three KG, including the LC of the KG, standing by some run down tower in the mountains of Dorne?

That wasn't my point.

My point was that if they didn't know that Aerys, Rhaegar, and Aegon were dead, or that Viserys had fled to Dragonstone, then they never chose to just guard Jon and leave Viserys unguarded as they believed Jon was the rightful heir. If they didn't know that the line of succession had got to this point, they were simply following their last orders to stay at the TOJ.

I'm saying that they didn't chose to guard Jon as they believed he was next in line. Just that they were already there and when Ned tells them everything, they're simply doing their job at this point. When Ned tells them the Targaryen's have lost, they might realize that Jon is the new king, but I'm simply saying that if they didn't know everything that Ned told them, then they didn't choose to defend Jon and leave Viserys unguarded. They can still be doing their job. Just that they didn't pick Jon over Viserys.

[JonSnow4President]

The Dornish, 1/4 of the army, had already broken and fled before Rhaegar died. Rhaegar dying was simply the last of the commanders being cut down. The ones of the flanks, Barristan, Darry, and Lewyn, were already cut down. Rhaegar, the commander of the centre, was killed by Robert. The army was leaderless at the point Rhaegar died and is why the entire army broke, but desertion had already occurred in a huge amount before he ever died.

Arthur Dayne also probably would not have fought alongside Rhaegar. Dayne was Dornish, and the Dornish didn't want to be there so he probably would have had joint command of the Dornish troops with Lewyn to try and keep them fighting. In which he would have dealt with Lyn, and probably eventually have been in a similar position to Barristan where he'll kill many people, but be brought down from his wounds. Barristan was of an equal with Dayne according to Martin and Barristan was cut down so I'm not sure why you would assume he wouldn't be when his equivalent was.

As for you saying they're not surprised if this is new information, why would they be? When Ned, one of the leaders of the rebellion, and 6 northerner rebels show up instead of Rhaegar or any royalist after Rhaegar went off to go end the rebellion, it should become damn clear that something has gone wrong. There won't be any surprise at the details of Ned's story. The simple fact that he's there at all is everything they need to know.

That aside, if you're trying to say that there is no surprise anywhere, and no indication of them receiving information for the first time, then why doesn't Arthur understand that the war is over? Because if Arthur knew that Rhaegar, Aerys, and Aegon were dead, that all 6 Lord Paramounts had proclaimed Robert king, and that Dorne had been smashed at the Trident, effectively making Robert the unquestioned ruler of the 7 Kingdoms, then why does Arthur not understand that the war is over like Ned does? We know that Ned knows all of this information and knows that the war is over. We do not know if Arthur knows all of this information until Ned tells him, but we do know that he doesn't understand that the war is done. So the most logical conclusion, ignoring even the mountain of evidence I already provided showcasing how the dialogue says that they didn't know, the simple fact that Arthur hasn't pieced together the fact that his side has unquestionably lost, means that it's all new information to them and they haven't had time to contemplate it.

Oh, I don't know, they have the rightful heir to the throne there and are planning on going the (f)Aegon route with him?

[markg171]

Oh, I don't know, they have the rightful heir to the throne there and are planning on going the (f)Aegon route with him?

Which doesn't make sense. Every Lord Paramount is backing Robert at this point. Dorne has been smashed into submission and even if they hadn't been, they wouldn't back a child who wasn't Elia's and is the cause of hers and Lewyn's deaths. There is no one who would support a movement to overthrow Robert.

If they wanted to go the Aegon route, they should have got the hell out of Westoros. Not stayed and fought.

[JonSnow4President]

Which doesn't make sense. Every Lord Paramount is backing Robert at this point. Dorne has been smashed into submission and even if they hadn't been, they wouldn't back a child who wasn't Elia's and is the cause of hers and Lewyn's deaths. There is no one who would support a movement to overthrow Robert.

If they wanted to go the Aegon route, they should have got the hell out of Westoros. Not stayed and fought.

Yes, because the extremely sick woman is definitely ready to travel.

[sj4iy]

Yes, because the extremely sick woman is definitely ready to travel.

She's just being lazy. If she really loved her son, she wouldn't have died like a wimp.

[BearQueen87]

She's just being lazy. If she really loved her son, she wouldn't have died like a wimp.

Same with Rhaegar! If he had really loved Lyanna and Jon he totally would have ducked when Robert swung.

[JonSnow4President]

She's just being lazy. If she really loved her son, she wouldn't have died like a wimp.

I know right? Just proof that men are tougher than women. Rhaegar didn't get killed by something like a little fever. It took a massive warhammer to do him in.

[markg171]

Yes, because the extremely sick woman is definitely ready to travel.

She's just being lazy. If she really loved her son, she wouldn't have died like a wimp.

Oh my mistake. I thought Jon was the heir but apparently it was Lyanna all along. Thanks for clearing that up.

[BearQueen87]

Oh my mistake. I thought Jon was the heir but apparently it was Lyanna all along. Thanks for clearing that up.

Awwww, your first comic sans!

And we don't know some of specifics we need, I'll admit that.

We don't know when they got the news (yes I think they got it) relative to when Ned, ect showed up. We don't know how much debating they did relative to when Ned, ect showed up. We don't know if Lyanna begged them not to take Jon away until she died (GRRM does say that KG aren't robots).

But if the time was incredibly short (like, they get the news, discuss some stuff, and then see Ned coming) then there is no point in fleeing. They might as well try to make a stand. They ARE the best swords in the realm after all.

[IceFire125]

But if the time was incredibly short (like, they get the news, discuss some stuff, and then see Ned coming) then there is no point in fleeing. They might as well try to make a stand. They ARE the best swords in the realm after all.

Still, mistress Lyanna and the bastard born baby, did not have the claim of the Kingsguard vow once Rhaegar is dead.

If Jon was a bastard, the three are duty bound to...

• Leave the tower for KL once they know of Rhaegar's demise (if the message only contained news from the battle at the Trident and if the news is received before the sack) -- claimants of Kingsguard vow still exists: Aerys, Aegon, Viserys.

Leave the tower to search for baby Aegon--to an extent, split up to also search for Viserys (if message only contained news regarding sack, death of Aerys, but no news of baby Aegon) -- claimants of Kingsguard vow still exist: Aegon and Viserys.

Leave the tower to search for Viserys or leave for Dragonstone, if they know that's where he will be (if message contained news regarding the sack, death of Aerys and baby Aegon) -- claimant of Kingsguard vow still exists: Viserys

Jon do not have claim to the Kingsguard vows, illegitimate.

I'm of the opinion that Jon was born shortly before they learned of the sack of KL. And that Jon was trueborn, thus looked on legitimately by the 3 Kingsguard, enough for their vow to be fulfilled in that tower, leading them to stay and not flee.

[BearQueen87]

Still, mistress Lyanna and the bastard born baby, did not have the claim of the Kingsguard vow once Rhaegar is dead.

If Jon was a bastard, the three are duty bound to...

• Leave the tower for KL once they know of Rhaegar's demise (if the message only contained news from the battle at the Trident and if the news is received before the sack) -- claimants of Kingsguard vow still exists: Aerys, Aegon, Viserys.

Leave the tower to search for baby Aegon--to an extent, split up to also search for Viserys (if message only contained news regarding sack, death of Aerys, but no news of baby Aegon) -- claimants of Kingsguard vow still exist: Aegon and Viserys.

Leave the tower to search for Viserys or leave for Dragonstone, if they know that's where he will be (if message contained news regarding the sack, death of Aerys and baby Aegon) -- claimant of Kingsguard vow still exists: Viserys

Jon do not have claim to the Kingsguard vows, illegitimate.

I'm of the opinion that Jon was born shortly before they learned of the sack of KL. And that Jon was trueborn, thus looked on legitimately by the 3 Kingsguard, enough for their vow to be fulfilled in that tower, leading them to stay and not flee.

I tend to agree. I sorta have this some what cliche scene in my head of the 3KG standing outside the TOJ, letter in hand, staring at each other in disbelief--Rhaegar gone, Aerys gone, Aegon gone--and then they hear it: a scream of pain and a sudden flurry of activity. And suddenly their entire world shifts.

*Yoda voice* There is one more.

[JonSnow4President]

I tend to agree. I sorta have this some what cliche scene in my head of the 3KG standing outside the TOJ, letter in hand, staring at each other in disbelief--Rhaegar gone, Aerys gone, Aegon gone--and then they hear it: a scream of pain and a sudden flurry of activity. And suddenly their entire world shifts.

*Yoda voice* There is one more.

Isn't it "There is another?"

My hand slipped while pooring my drink, so I'm on the tail end of a 3.5 shots worth of whiskey mixed drink with a low alcohol tolerance, so i wouldn't trust anything I say though. (That's the nice thing about being a lightweight. Doesn't cost as much.)

[BearQueen87]

Isn't it "There is another?"

My hand slipped while pooring my drink, so I'm on the tail end of a 3.5 shots worth of whiskey mixed drink with a low alcohol tolerance, so i wouldn't trust anything I say though.

....sure (Star Trek is better anyways)

[JonSnow4President]

....sure (Star Trek is better anyways)

Never actually watched the original Star Treks, and didn't go to see the remakes yet. (I'm a youngun,' spent the majority of my early childhood playing outside, and parents only ever got us Star Wars).

[BearQueen87]

Never actually watched the original Star Treks, and didn't go to see the remakes yet. (I'm a youngun,' spent the majority of my early childhood playing outside, and parents only ever got us Star Wars).

1. I weep for you

2. I'm pretty sure we're around the same age (but my dad was super into ST)

3. *blinks owlishly* What is...outside? Is there internet out there?

[JonSnow4President]

1. I weep for you

2. I'm pretty sure we're around the same age (but my dad was super into ST)

3. *blinks owlishly* What is...outside? Is there internet out there?

I'm 23. The majority of the time, my dad was either working, or on the weekends watching football or doing work around our (very old) house to save money. 3 kids and a low income didn't leave a lot of money to hire a plumber. (The income got better. He's building his retirement home in the same neighborhood as our university's football coach) Even now when he has free time, fiction isn't his thing, and I don't think he watches a single non-sports or news show regularly, so there was no chance of that from my dad. My mom wasn't ever a big TV person.

We had a tiny house, with 3 young children (2 years and 10 months total difference from the oldest (me) to the youngest). We always had a decent sized yard and other kids in the neighborhood, so tag, hide and seek, riding bikes, or tonka trucks took up the majority of our play time. Even in middle school, we had a massive hill with a little forest with hiking trails immediately behind our house, so in the spring-fall, we'd ride our bikes all through it. In the winter, it was non-stop sledding or playing king of the hill on the snow plow pile in the cul-de-sac. Wasn't really until high school that I became an indoor creature, so no opportunity for star trek.

I got grounded once for reading growing up (I set my alarm for 3 am for a Harry Potter book that had just come out, so I could get some reading in before school) and always had the most Accelerated Reader points in school, so not a whole lot of TV or movie time.

[BearQueen87]

I'm 23. The majority of the time, my dad was either working, or on the weekends watching football or doing work around our (very old) house to save money. 3 kids and a low income didn't leave a lot of money to hire a plumber. (The income got better. He's building his retirement home in the same neighborhood as our university's football coach) Even now when he has free time, fiction isn't his thing, and I don't think he watches a single non-sports or news show regularly, so there was no chance of that from my dad. My mom wasn't ever a big TV person.

We had a tiny house, with 3 young children (2 years and 10 months total difference from the oldest (me) to the youngest). We always had a decent sized yard and other kids in the neighborhood, so tag, hide and seek, riding bikes, or tonka trucks took up the majority of our play time. Even in middle school, we had a massive hill with a little forest with hiking trails immediately behind our house, so in the spring-fall, we'd ride our bikes all through it. In the winter, it was non-stop sledding or playing king of the hill on the snow plow pile in the cul-de-sac. Wasn't really until high school that I became an indoor creature, so no opportunity for star trek.

I got grounded once for reading growing up (I set my alarm for 3 am for a Harry Potter book that had just come out, so I could get some reading in before school) and always had the most Accelerated Reader points in school, so not a whole lot of TV or movie time.

Close, 27 over here.

Mom and dad divorced early so I spent every other weekend and every other major holiday with dad who always wanted me to watch ST (which was fine by me. Turns out I was quite the little nerd).

Outside bothers me since it has people. So I spent a lot of time indoors with my books (like you) and yeah, my TV.