R + L = J v. 127

[UnmaskedLurker]

That's fine. It's clear that Targs can have children who don't look like Targs. But I know a number of people who have only read the five main books and who are going to feel a little misled (if R+L=J) by the fact that GRRM set up the distinctive Targ look and gave it to every known Targ in those books and then turned around and said -- hey, all along there was a secret one who looked different. I gave you plenty of clues that the Targaryen seed is weak but you would only know about them if you bought the companion books.

Actually, I think that might be exactly the reaction that GRRM would want. It would show that he did a good job hiding the mystery. These people certainly cannot say that there was ever anything said in the main books that precluded a child of a Targ from taking after a non-Targ parent. So on reflection, these people should realize they actually fooled themselves if they thought one Targ parent always meant traditional Targ looks. There just is really no basis for such an assumption. So anyone who feels "tricked" really only has themselves to blame. And I think GRRM would enjoy the fact that they were "tricked" in such a manner (not that I really claim to know what goes on in his head).

[UnmaskedLurker]

[Darn double post].

[The Twinslayer]

@ Twinslayer,

Targaryens in the main series:

• Rhaenys: Dornish look. the first Targaryen a common reader hears about, who deosn't have the 'trademark' look. Sursprise surprise, she's the first not born from incest.

I would agree with you if this statement was correct. But there is nothing in any of the books to indicate that Rhaenys did not have the trademark look.

[Greymoon]

I would agree with you if this statement was correct. But there is nothing in any of the books to indicate that Rhaenys did not have the trademark look.

It's said she took after her mother, Elia of Dorne. What conspiracy are you brewing?

[sj4iy]

Ninja'd.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

I would agree with you if this statement was correct. But there is nothing in any of the books to indicate that Rhaenys did not have the trademark look.

Are Rhaella and Aerys' looks described in the main series? Jaehaerys II's? Aegon V's? Is there anything in the books that suggests that all of them had the classical Valyrian looks? I can't recall any of them being described. Most Targaryen descriptions we had for many years came from SSM.

[markg171]

Oh I like that interpretation much more.

Renly believed Robert could set Cersei aside to wed Marg

Tywin dissolved Tyrion and Tysha

It's all canon though. Including the WB

Did Tyrion's marriage ever get dissolved? Or was it just something buried, until Joffrey and the High Septon officially dissolved it by marrying Tyrion to Sansa? Because I seem to recall Tyrion saying "I have a wife" in reference to Tysha multiple times. It seems like something that was never really dissolved until the king and High Septon got involved

Both Visenya and Rhaenys were Aegon's Queens.. Yet succession could go through only one. That the succession of Rhaegar was supposed to go through the child Rhaegar had with Elia, wouldn't have made Lyanna a non-Queen.

My point was that she would be a queen yes, but she wouldn't be the one that mattered. Elia would be the one that mattered because succession ran through her.

Baelor the Blessed had his marriage to his sister wife, Daena the Defiant, dissolved.

Cersei tells Jaime that she fears being put aside, so something must have given her the notion.

And Renly and Loras are working to replace her with Marge.

These seem to again being all situations of the King doing as he pleases. So until Rhaegar became king, I don't think he'd be able to just set Elia aside, unless Aerys or the High Septon dissolved it.

[sj4iy]

The only real thing that needs to be said about this entire 'genetics' argument:

“The Lannisters are proud,” Jon observed. “You’d think the royal sigil would be sufficient, but no. He makes his mother’s House equal in honor to the king’s.”

“The woman is important too!” Arya protested.

[markg171]

But it's not as if Jon is unique is taking after one single "seed." Out of Cat's children all except Arya have the Tully look. Jon and Arya got the lion share of Stark traits and few Targ/Tully ones, respectively. But Robb, Sansa, Bran and Rickon got more of the Tully look. So I don't think it's "cheap" if GRRM has been setting up the idea that while genetics and traits help uncover a mystery it's not the end all be all of how blood works in his world.

And, it's not just in side books. Bloodraven doesn't look like a typical Targ.

As far as the main book readers are aware, Bloodraven isn't a Targaryen. They don't even know he's Bloodraven.

Dunk and Egg and ASOIAF are two completely different stories. There are easter eggs in ASOIAF from Dunk and Egg (like Bloodraven, Dunk's shield). But you don't need to have read Dunk and Egg to understand ASOIAF.

[markg171]

I couldn't find Rhaenys's description, and I don't remember where it might be.

Anyway, I know the show is not relevant here, but at the end of S2, Dany's HotU vision included her son who had black hair. I can't help but think that they wanted to place a hint in the show as well, that not all Targs have silver hair.

In the books, Dany's son had silver/gold hair

[markg171]

Then why are you even arguing this point in the first place? If you accede that Jon can have non-Targ features and still be a Targ, then it shouldn't be a point of contention for any reason.

His point is that it's not anywhere in the books that Targs can't look like Targs. You have to read outside material to know that. As far as the books are considered, Targaryens look like Targaryens.

[markg171]

@ Twinslayer,

Targaryens in the main series:

• Rhaella : 'trademark' look. A superficial reading indicates Targaryen's practiced incest. The normal reader assumes that Rhaella's looks are due to Targaryen incest.

Aerys : 'trademark' look. The normal reader assumes that Aery's looks are due to Targaryen incest and in comforted in this idea by Aerys's madness.

Rhaegar : 'trademark' look. The common reader knows his parents were brother and sister. Rhaegar was the product of incest, no need to look further to explain his trademark Targaryen look.

Viserys : same same. Argument of madness re-enforces the idea of Targaryen incest.

Dany: same as her brothers, born of incest.

Rhaenys: Dornish look. the first Targaryen a common reader hears about, who deosn't have the 'trademark' look. Sursprise surprise, she's the first not born from incest.

Aegon: trademark Targaryen look. The second of two Targaryens that the common reader has met, who is not born of incest.

basically a superficial reading of the main series leads to two conclusions:

• Targayens born of incest always have the Targaryen trademark look.

Targaryens born of a mixed marriage have a 50% change of looking like a Targaryen.

There's no need to read Dunk and Egg, or WoIaF to see that Targaryen looks are neither dominant nor recessive.

Rhaenys is not described in the books. So as far as the books are concerned, 100% of the time Targaryens look like Targaryens

[lady ginger]

Who knows how Mr. Martin's genetics work. But I think in real life isn't Dominant over Recessive unless there's more Recessive, then Recessive becomes the Dominant?

[The Twinslayer]

It's said she took after her mother, Elia of Dorne. What conspiracy are you brewing?

Yes, but only in an SSM. Casual readers aren't even aware of the SSM collection.

We have not been able to find this said in any of the books. If you can find it, then what I have been saying is wrong. But I am pretty sure it isn't in the books.

Are Rhaella and Aerys' looks described in the main series? Jaehaerys II's? Aegon V's? Is there anything in the books that suggests that all of them had the classical Valyrian looks? I can't recall any of them being described. Most Targaryen descriptions we had for many years came from SSM.

In the books, there is the general statement in AGOT to the effect that silver hair and purple eyes "proclaim" the Targ heritage. Dany and Viserys are described that way ("Look at her. That silver-gold hair, those purple eyes . . . she is the blood of old Valyria, no doubt. . ."). So is Rhaegar in the HOTU vision and by Cersei. Aerys is described in the HOTU vision as having "dark eyes and long silver-grey hair." Kevan remembers baby Aegon's pale hair and Connington describes Young Griff/Aegon (who he would have seen as a baby) as having the trademark look. Cersei and Kevan both think Cersei's children by Rhaegar would have had the trademark look. But there are no hints in the main books that a silver-haired, purple-eyed Targaryen prince could have a child that looked different.

As far as incest goes, you are led to believe that the Targaryens almost always wed brother to sister. The exception is Rhaegar's ancestor Daeron, who married a Dornish princess. If Daeron's descendents all married brother to sister, that would mean that all of the purple eyed, silver haired Targaryens we see in the series are half-Dornish and half-Targaryen. (We know from the world book that that is not true -- I am just talking about what you would learn from the five main books).

[sj4iy]

Yes, but only in an SSM. Casual readers aren't even aware of the SSM collection.

We have not been able to find this said in any of the books. If you can find it, then what I have been saying is wrong. But I am pretty sure it isn't in the books.

In the books, there is the general statement in AGOT to the effect that silver hair and purple eyes "proclaim" the Targ heritage. Dany and Viserys are described that way ("Look at her. That silver-gold hair, those purple eyes . . . she is the blood of old Valyria, no doubt. . ."). So is Rhaegar in the HOTU vision and by Cersei. Aerys is described in the HOTU vision as having "dark eyes and long silver-grey hair." Kevan remembers baby Aegon's pale hair and Connington describes Young Griff/Aegon (who he would have seen as a baby) as having the trademark look. Cersei and Kevan both think Cersei's children by Rhaegar would have had the trademark look. But there are no hints in the main books that a silver-haired, purple-eyed Targaryen prince could have a child that looked different.

As far as incest goes, you are led to believe that the Targaryens almost always wed brother to sister. The exception is Rhaegar's ancestor Daeron, who married a Dornish princess. If Daeron's descendents all married brother to sister, that would mean that all of the purple eyed, silver haired Targaryens we see in the series are half-Dornish and half-Targaryen. (We know from the world book that that is not true -- I am just talking about what you would learn from the five main books).

Then why does Ashara Dayne have purple eyes? She's not Targaryen.

The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face.

[RumHam]

I'm now pretty sure markg171 is not Stateofdissipation. Stateofdissipation at least knew how to use multiquote.

[sj4iy]

I'm now pretty sure markg171 is not Stateofdissipation. Stateofdissipation at least knew how to use multiquote.

LMAO.

[markg171]

Yes, but only in an SSM. Casual readers aren't even aware of the SSM collection.

We have not been able to find this said in any of the books. If you can find it, then what I have been saying is wrong. But I am pretty sure it isn't in the books.

In the books, there is the general statement in AGOT to the effect that silver hair and purple eyes "proclaim" the Targ heritage. Dany and Viserys are described that way ("Look at her. That silver-gold hair, those purple eyes . . . she is the blood of old Valyria, no doubt. . ."). So is Rhaegar in the HOTU vision and by Cersei. Aerys is described in the HOTU vision as having "dark eyes and long silver-grey hair." Kevan remembers baby Aegon's pale hair and Connington describes Young Griff/Aegon (who he would have seen as a baby) as having the trademark look. Cersei and Kevan both think Cersei's children by Rhaegar would have had the trademark look. But there are no hints in the main books that a silver-haired, purple-eyed Targaryen prince could have a child that looked different.

As far as incest goes, you are led to believe that the Targaryens almost always wed brother to sister. The exception is Rhaegar's ancestor Daeron, who married a Dornish princess. If Daeron's descendents all married brother to sister, that would mean that all of the purple eyed, silver haired Targaryens we see in the series are half-Dornish and half-Targaryen. (We know from the world book that that is not true -- I am just talking about what you would learn from the five main books).

Rhaego is also described in the HOTU vision as having silver/gold hair

I'm now pretty sure markg171 is not Stateofdissipation. Stateofdissipation at least knew how to use multiquote.

You should probably check out post #407.

[UnmaskedLurker]

Yes, but only in an SSM. Casual readers aren't even aware of the SSM collection.

We have not been able to find this said in any of the books. If you can find it, then what I have been saying is wrong. But I am pretty sure it isn't in the books.

In the books, there is the general statement in AGOT to the effect that silver hair and purple eyes "proclaim" the Targ heritage. Dany and Viserys are described that way ("Look at her. That silver-gold hair, those purple eyes . . . she is the blood of old Valyria, no doubt. . ."). So is Rhaegar in the HOTU vision and by Cersei. Aerys is described in the HOTU vision as having "dark eyes and long silver-grey hair." Kevan remembers baby Aegon's pale hair and Connington describes Young Griff/Aegon (who he would have seen as a baby) as having the trademark look. Cersei and Kevan both think Cersei's children by Rhaegar would have had the trademark look. But there are no hints in the main books that a silver-haired, purple-eyed Targaryen prince could have a child that looked different.

As far as incest goes, you are led to believe that the Targaryens almost always wed brother to sister. The exception is Rhaegar's ancestor Daeron, who married a Dornish princess. If Daeron's descendents all married brother to sister, that would mean that all of the purple eyed, silver haired Targaryens we see in the series are half-Dornish and half-Targaryen. (We know from the world book that that is not true -- I am just talking about what you would learn from the five main books).

I honestly don't understand what point you are making. If I were writing a series with a big mystery regarding a character's parents, such as RLJ, I would do exactly what you are describing. I would have all the information suggest that if someone is a Targ, that person will have certain looks. I would then show other examples of where children might take after one parent or the other (e.g., the Stark children) to establish the possibility that a child may take after either parent (except for the Baratheon/Lannister situation where "the seed is strong"--another potential misdirect regarding the Targ situation). This information would keep most readers from considering that Jon might have a Targ parent.

Then, when RLJ is revealed, the reader realizes that he or she was not thinking the situation through carefully enough and discounted an obvious possibility.

Thus, your description is 100% consistent with RLJ. It does not preclude RLJ, but intentionally misleads many if not most readers not to consider RLJ as a possibility. This approach is a classic literary approach, and one that GRRM certainly employs over and over again. He absolutely loves to mislead the readers as long as in retrospect the readers know they were not actually lied to--just misdirected.

[BearQueen87]

The only real thing that needs to be said about this entire 'genetics' argument:

“The Lannisters are proud,” Jon observed. “You’d think the royal sigil would be sufficient, but no. He makes his mother’s House equal in honor to the king’s.”

“The woman is important too!” Arya protested.

Nice

I'm now pretty sure markg171 is not Stateofdissipation. Stateofdissipation at least knew how to use multiquote.

With colors!