Borgia: Faith and Fear

[SeanF]

I just recently binge-watched this show. I watched the first episode just to see how it would go because I was bored and was immediately hooked. John Doman is really good, as is Isolda Dychauk but the true star was Mark Ryder's performance as Cesare Borgia. Possibly the most compelling Cesare on small or big screen. Writing for these portrayals deserves credit, and the final season is brilliant particularly because as viewers we are aware it's going to end in tragedy.(My throat was clogged with emotion during most of the final episodes.) Also I don't care what people say about the Showtime series, this version with it's more balanced portrayal of the myth vs reality of Lucrezia and Cesare's relationship was better viewing.

I didn't really mind the differing accents, even though normally such things seriously impede my enjoyment of shows like this and partly I think it's because of the great performances. John Doman's American accent simply seems to highlight his outsider status in the eyes of the cardinals.

As for your spoiler, that seriously screwed with my mind as well. Just the impact of that one scene was seriously mind-blowing. Also the final scene ("In the beginning...") left me annoyed and extremely happy as well.

I really enjoyed the 1981 BBC Series, The Borgias, which was widely criticised at the time.

I remember Mary Whitehouse went berserk over a scene where Rodrigo deflowers Lucrezia, begging God for forgiveness at the same time.

[ArabellaVidal]

 

 

I really enjoyed the 1981 BBC Series, The Borgias, which was widely criticised at the time.

 

I remember Mary Whitehouse went berserk over a scene where Rodrigo deflowers Lucrezia, begging God for forgiveness at the same time.

 

Sounds great. I've heard that one of the actors had a strong foreign accent, possibly Rodrigo or Cesare, and it was running concurrently with Brideshead Revisited which had a bigger budget and this was why it was largely ignored. Criticized in the age of I, Claudius?

Anyway, much better than GoT.

[SeanF]

Sounds great. I've heard that one of the actors had a strong foreign accent, possibly Rodrigo or Cesare, and it was running concurrently with Brideshead Revisited which had a bigger budget and this was why it was largely ignored. Criticized in the age of I, Claudius?

Anyway, much better than GoT.

The actor playing Rodrigo had a strong Sicilian accent.

[Martini Sigil]

I am more likely to enjoy more shows than most of the people on this board... I like certain things more than others, but I rarely find as many faults as most of my fellow board members.... that said.... I bailed on this early.... John Doman --to me-- was laughably bad in the part... they might as well have cast Joe Pesci...

However, this board rarely steers me wrong..... so I'll put it back on the binge list and give it another go...

[SeanF]

Sounds great. I've heard that one of the actors had a strong foreign accent, possibly Rodrigo or Cesare, and it was running concurrently with Brideshead Revisited which had a bigger budget and this was why it was largely ignored. Criticized in the age of I, Claudius?

Anyway, much better than GoT.

IIRC it also attracted a load of criticism from the Catholic Church. The Pope is portrayed as a horrendously evil man, who has no qualms about murder, torture, and rape. He has a bevy of young women delivered to him, after the fall of Capua.

It's hard to see his deflowering of Lucrezia as anything other than a rape. He's her father, 45 years older, and Lucrezia is terrified that she'll go to hell. And, she's also left carrying his child, the Infans Romanus.

[Castel]

I am more likely to enjoy more shows than most of the people on this board... I like certain things more than others, but I rarely find as many faults as most of my fellow board members.... that said.... I bailed on this early.... John Doman --to me-- was laughably bad in the part... they might as well have cast Joe Pesci...

However, this board rarely steers me wrong..... so I'll put it back on the binge list and give it another go...

I think, that if you can get past his accent, Doman gives a great performance.

 

I just recently binge-watched this show. I watched the first episode just to see how it would go because I was bored and was immediately hooked. John Doman is really good, as is Isolda Dychauk but the true star was Mark Ryder's performance as Cesare Borgia. Possibly the most compelling Cesare on small or big screen. Writing for these portrayals deserves credit, and the final season is brilliant particularly because as viewers we are aware it's going to end in tragedy.(My throat was clogged with emotion during most of the final episodes.) Also I don't care what people say about the Showtime series, this version with it's more balanced portrayal of the myth vs reality of Lucrezia and Cesare's relationship was better viewing.

I didn't really mind the differing accents, even though normally such things seriously impede my enjoyment of shows like this and partly I think it's because of the great performances. John Doman's American accent simply seems to highlight his outsider status in the eyes of the cardinals.

As for your spoiler, that seriously screwed with my mind as well. Just the impact of that one scene was seriously mind-blowing. Also the final scene ("In the beginning...") left me annoyed and extremely happy as well.

 

It's a hard line to walk. You're put in a weird position where the rumors are an integral part of their legend and it's unclear just which ones are true or not . Everyone comes in knowing that, if anything happens, that topic will be dealt with. So what can you do? 

 

The ShowTime show definitely took the more straightforward route. And that goes not just for the relationship stuff but for the historical murder mystery and the general perception of Borgia too. 

 

On that spoiler; I actually rewatched the series after reading Machiavelli's book and going through bits of other Borgia biographies and I think you can tell that they really leaned on Machiavelli. You can see it earlier in how Cesare and Louis' relationship develops. I feel like they felt that was the only way to make Louis' actions make sense, and similarly, the spoiler was the only way to make that person's actions make sense since Machiavelli seems completely baffled by those choices. 

[Zorral]

 

The actor playing Rodrigo had a strong Sicilian accent.

 

 

It should have been a Spanish accent!  Though -- I'm a bit fuzzy with chronology here -- but was Spain holding Sicily at that time?  Anyway, Rodrigo had spent most of his life in Rome anyway, due to his uncle.

 

 

[ArabellaVidal]

I think, that if you can get past his accent, Doman gives a great performance.

 

 

It's a hard line to walk. You're put in a weird position where the rumors are an integral part of their legend and it's unclear just which ones are true or not . Everyone comes in knowing that, if anything happens, that topic will be dealt with. So what can you do? 

 

The ShowTime show definitely took the more straightforward route. And that goes not just for the relationship stuff but for the historical murder mystery and the general perception of Borgia too. 

 

On that spoiler; I actually rewatched the series after reading Machiavelli's book and going through bits of other Borgia biographies and I think you can tell that they really leaned on Machiavelli. You can see it earlier in how Cesare and Louis' relationship develops. I feel like they felt that was the only way to make Louis' actions make sense, and similarly, the spoiler was the only way to make that person's actions make sense since Machiavelli seems completely baffled by those choices. 

I plan to start on Machiavelli soon. Right now I'm reading Sarah Bradford's books on both Lucrezia and Cesare. She's included many of the rumours regarding the Borgias that were circulating round their time and the possible source or agenda behind that gossip. It's interesting how the two shows chose to approach that stuff and decide which rumour to incorporate as a plot point and which not.(Personally I felt that Tom Fontana's show incorporated this stuff more intelligently in order to tell a coherent and powerful story and the improvisations like Savonarola's encounters with Cesare served their purpose well for character development.)  I wonder how much is actually known now about that fateful decision (in the spoiler) and hope that Bradford's work will shed some light.

I must say that it's astonishing which parts are true about the Borgias.

[Castel]

I plan to start on Machiavelli soon. Right now I'm reading Sarah Bradford's books on both Lucrezia and Cesare. She's included many of the rumours regarding the Borgias that were circulating round their time and the possible source or agenda behind that gossip. It's interesting how the two shows chose to approach that stuff and decide which rumour to incorporate as a plot point and which not.(Personally I felt that Tom Fontana's show incorporated this stuff more intelligently in order to tell a coherent and powerful story and the improvisations like Savonarola's encounters with Cesare served their purpose well for character development.)  I wonder how much is actually known now about that fateful decision (in the spoiler) and hope that Bradford's work will shed some light.

I must say that it's astonishing which parts are true about the Borgias.

The whole Savanorola thing as the emotional struggle for Cesare was great. Ian Glen did a great job. 

But yeah, all in all Fontana seems to take a less straightforward stance on them, especially with Lucrezia, probably because some of the rumors surrounding her seem pretty thin and with better explanations than they were true (scumbag Giovanni Sforza ), as far as I can tell.

Let me know if you find anything on that spoiler. I went through what I could get my hands on and it seems like one of those historical situations where we simply don't have an exhaustive set of reasons, and Machiavelli, who is best placed to give one, doesn't offer one besides the obvious. Perhaps it is exactly as it seems because

 

Cesare simply didn't have the votes to block Della Rovere, (he had less than 2/3s of the cardinals) and was afraid of not playing kingmaker and thus being in the cold if any challenge to Della Rovere failed and the man just offered him a great deal. The circumstances might just have undone him.

A monumental, historic miscalculation, but perhaps just that. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Myrddin]

I am more likely to enjoy more shows than most of the people on this board... I like certain things more than others, but I rarely find as many faults as most of my fellow board members.... that said.... I bailed on this early.... John Doman --to me-- was laughably bad in the part... they might as well have cast Joe Pesci...

However, this board rarely steers me wrong..... so I'll put it back on the binge list and give it another go...

Do.

I was thrown by his accent at first too. But once you realize that he was a seen as a foreigner to everyone in Rome, even the non-Romans and non-Italians, it sort of works. He really does a good job in the role in spite of that.

[SeanF]

I plan to start on Machiavelli soon. Right now I'm reading Sarah Bradford's books on both Lucrezia and Cesare. She's included many of the rumours regarding the Borgias that were circulating round their time and the possible source or agenda behind that gossip. It's interesting how the two shows chose to approach that stuff and decide which rumour to incorporate as a plot point and which not.(Personally I felt that Tom Fontana's show incorporated this stuff more intelligently in order to tell a coherent and powerful story and the improvisations like Savonarola's encounters with Cesare served their purpose well for character development.) I wonder how much is actually known now about that fateful decision (in the spoiler) and hope that Bradford's work will shed some light.

I must say that it's astonishing which parts are true about the Borgias.

I'd also recommend The Borgias and Their Enemies, by Christopher Hibbert, and The Tigress of Forli, by Elizabeth Lev.

Most modern historians tend to reject the stories of incest between Rodrigo and Lucrezia, and Cesare and Lucrezia. OTOH, Cesare's murders of Calderon and Alphonso of Aragon seem well-founded, along with his rape of Caterina Sforza, and subjecting her to mock execution.

[Zorral]

 

The whole Savanorola thing as the emotional struggle for Cesare was great. Ian Glen did a great job. 

But yeah, all in all Fontana seems to take a less straightforward stance on them, especially with Lucrezia, probably because some of the rumors surrounding her seem pretty thin and with better explanations than they were true (scumbag Giovanni Sforza ), as far as I can tell.

Let me know if you find anything on that spoiler. I went through what I could get my hands on and it seems like one of those historical situations where we simply don't have an exhaustive set of reasons, and Machiavelli, who is best placed to give one, doesn't offer one besides the obvious. Perhaps it is exactly as it seems because

 

Hidden Content

 

 

 

 

Have you read (from Penguin etc.) The Borgias: The Hidden History by G.J. Meyer?  It will inform you that so much of what you think you know is not to be believed.

History is not only written by the victors, but by politicians.  And no where were there more politicians who had access to the means by which they points of view could be sown broadly than the Church.

Something that must be considered in any assessment of the Borgia papacy is that Rodriga wasn't the first Borgia pope. The Borgias were Spanish, and by the time Rodrigo took the position Queen Isabella of Spain was the foremost ruler in Europe.  He and she went back a long way.

 

 

 

[Myrddin]

Have you read (from Penguin etc.) The Borgias: The Hidden History by G.J. Meyer?  It will inform you that so much of what you think you know is not to be believed.

History is not only written by the victors, but by politicians.  And no where were there more politicians who had access to the means by which they points of view could be sown broadly than the Church.

Something that must be considered in any assessment of the Borgia papacy is that Rodriga wasn't the first Borgia pope. The Borgias were Spanish, and by the time Rodrigo took the position Queen Isabella of Spain was the foremost ruler in Europe.  He and she went back a long way.

Interesting. Thanks for the the book rec.

[ArabellaVidal]

Great book recommendations here. Something to do while waiting for WoW.

[ArabellaVidal]

 

I'd also recommend The Borgias and Their Enemies, by Christopher Hibbert, and The Tigress of Forli, by Elizabeth Lev.

 

Most modern historians tend to reject the stories of incest between Rodrigo and Lucrezia, and Cesare and Lucrezia. OTOH, Cesare's murders of Calderon and Alphonso of Aragon seem well-founded, along with his rape of Caterina Sforza, and subjecting her to mock execution.

It was disappointing that they didn't have the time to incorporate Cesare's treatment of Caterina Sforza in the show. It was well set-up at the end of the second season but apparently Fontana was told to wrap up the show in the third season so that story was severely cropped. I keep wondering how much better the show would have been with a few more episodes.

[SeanF]

It was disappointing that they didn't have the time to incorporate Cesare's treatment of Caterina Sforza in the show. It was well set-up at the end of the second season but apparently Fontana was told to wrap up the show in the third season so that story was severely cropped. I keep wondering how much better the show would have been with a few more episodes.

It seems a miracle to me that Caterina managed to survive 18 months' imprisonment at the Borgias' hands. She was given a very hard time. They couldn't quite bring themselves to execute her, or even quietly murder her, which would have upset their French allies. But, they were clearly hoping that sufficient ill-treatment would kill her. By all accounts, she looked like a ghost when she was released. At least she had the satisfaction of outliving them.

[Castel]

Have you read (from Penguin etc.) The Borgias: The Hidden History by G.J. Meyer?  It will inform you that so much of what you think you know is not to be believed.

History is not only written by the victors, but by politicians.  And no where were there more politicians who had access to the means by which they points of view could be sown broadly than the Church.

Something that must be considered in any assessment of the Borgia papacy is that Rodriga wasn't the first Borgia pope. The Borgias were Spanish, and by the time Rodrigo took the position Queen Isabella of Spain was the foremost ruler in Europe.  He and she went back a long way.

 

 

 

I hadn't gotten into it, thanks for the rec. I might have seen it cited before in my travels,but I'm not sure. I basically just skimmed what I could find for explanations.

 

What I did see was enough to convince me to be careful. Besides what he closest rivals and successor did or felt about him it was amazing to me how many of the following and preceding Popes were the result of nepotism or basically dynasties, just like the Borgias, despite their self-serving bleating.

 

 

It seems a miracle to me that Caterina managed to survive 18 months' imprisonment at the Borgias' hands. She was given a very hard time. They couldn't quite bring themselves to execute her, or even quietly murder her, which would have upset their French allies. But, they were clearly hoping that sufficient ill-treatment would kill her. By all accounts, she looked like a ghost when she was released. At least she had the satisfaction of outliving them.

I'm more surprised by the twists and turns of Cesare's fortunes near the end. I can't believe he made it as far as he did by the end. 

That shit could have been a season all on its own. 

TBH, I wish Showtime's The Borgias had gotten two more seasons just to see all that play out. I kinda loathe Showtime!Borgias, but I would have loved to see that Cesare scrambling.

 

[Zorral]

Most historians are rejecting that Rodrigo was the father of those figures at all -- he was their uncle, they believe.

The hatred -- and fear -- of Spain and Charles V that got rolling seriously in the 16th century among many a European country -- particularly the seven provinces that made up what had been the Low Countries and now were known as the Spanish Netherlands -- had a lot to do with these libels -- and they made such a great story!

[SeanF]

Most historians are rejecting that Rodrigo was the father of those figures at all -- he was their uncle, they believe.

The hatred -- and fear -- of Spain and Charles V that got rolling seriously in the 16th century among many a European country -- particularly the seven provinces that made up what had been the Low Countries and now were known as the Spanish Netherlands -- had a lot to do with these libels -- and they made such a great story!

I've heard the argument, but I wouldn't say it's accepted by most historians.

There seems no doubt to me that Cesare, Juan, Lucrezia, and Joffre, were Rodrigo's children.

[Zorral]

I've heard the argument, but I wouldn't say it's accepted by most historians.

There seems no doubt to me that Cesare, Juan, Lucrezia, and Joffre, were Rodrigo's children.

Whereas the argument has impressed me deeply, to the polnt I won't say certainly that Rodrigo was their father -- there's so much that contradicts the possibility.  Though I wouldn't go so far as to say definitely that he wasn't their father either!