markg171 Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Or a bleeding guy whose sigil is a star being killed by a giant right there...Patreks a blue star and if Melisandre is to be believed you need a red star.Which basically means everything is a clusterfuck. My point was just that you can find ways to make people fulfill prohecies without ever actually being the person who its meant for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markg171 Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Martin's a smart guy. It's not as if he doesn't have the capability of working his bet into something important. I think completely dismissing it is a mistake. Of course, I'm really interested to see how the show handles this scene, and what we see happen in it. I think that will be our confirmation as to whether or not we should take this as a real sign or not.The bleeding star has been foretold since the start. Patrek of King's Mountain and the idea for him, is only a few years old. They don't add up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disputatious Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Martin's a smart guy. It's not as if he doesn't have the capability of working his bet into something important. I think completely dismissing it is a mistake. Of course, I'm really interested to see how the show handles this scene, and what we see happen in it. I think that will be our confirmation as to whether or not we should take this as a real sign or not.I agree that he is capable of doing both, so long as giving this idea one chance in one thousand is sufficient to count as not completely dismissing it :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markg171 Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Or Arthur Dayne of Starfall who was bleeding to death at the TOJ? And wait. Now Jon is Ashara's? I thought the mother didn't matter?For the purposes of trying to invent a scenario where you fulfill the prophecy without meaning too? Yes it would be kind of important that Jon is a Dayne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Of course, I'm really interested to see how the show handles this scene, and what we see happen in it. I think that will be our confirmation as to whether or not we should take this as a real sign or not. Has the show even mentioned the bleeding star? It's been a long time since I've seen season 2, so it's fuzzy. I know "salt and smoke" has come up, with Renly's "Is he a ham?" quip, and obviously we've seen the comet (which I think is a red herring anyway). ETA: Regarding Ser Patrek, he may or may not be the "bleeding star." Jon ticking the boxes isn't contingent on Patrek being the star; there are other possibilities there (someone mentioned Dayne dying at the ToJ, for instance). Is it possible, maybe even likely, that Patrek was just the inside joke over the bet? Sure. Are the two mutually exclusive? I don't see why they need to be. Curious that, joke or not, Patrek just happened to die right when Jon is stabbed. This same event could have occurred anywhere in the book, but it happened then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aDanceWithFlagons Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 When the stars bleed... the red comet is the blood dripping from the stars. Bloody stars! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disputatious Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Apple: the "rebirth" has to take place under the bleeding star: not the death. Otherwise, so I see you are abandoning your theory? Is that the way of it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 So, the star is not bleeding but being bled upon. Funny how many have talked themselves into believing this rubbish, despite no evidence that Ser Patrick's sigil is anything other than the result of a lost bet on the NFL Giants versus the Dallas Cowboys.See also this from the wiki:http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Patrek_of_King's_MountainAgreed... I can't believe how easily people are tricked, or trick themselves... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Has the show even mentioned the bleeding star? It's been a long time since I've seen season 2, so it's fuzzy. I know "salt and smoke" has come up, with Renly's "Is he a ham?" quip, and obviously we've seen the comet (which I think is a red herring anyway). ETA: Regarding Ser Patrek, he may or may not be the "bleeding star." Jon ticking the boxes isn't contingent on Patrek being the star; there are other possibilities there (someone mentioned Dayne dying at the ToJ, for instance). Is it possible, maybe even likely, that Patrek was just the inside joke over the bet? Sure. Are the two mutually exclusive? I don't see why they need to be. Curious that, joke or not, Patrek just happened to die right when Jon is stabbed. This same event could have occurred anywhere in the book, but it happened then. The show has mentioned bleeding stars along with smoke and salt. It's also mentioned Lightbringer. It has not mentioned any name except "warrior of light" and other generic terms...so no PTWP or AAR.I think we see some version of the prophecy come true when Jon is betrayed on the show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Paraphrased "When the Red Star Bleeds......... AA will be reborn amongst salt & smoke"... Jon died at the end of ADWDs, this is not the same as being reborn... Jon was supposedly born at the TOJ, this is not the same as being REborn... --Conclusion: AA has yet to be reborn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Paraphrased "When the Red Star Bleeds......... AA will be reborn amongst salt & smoke"... Jon died at the end of ADWDs, this is not the same as being reborn... Then it's a good thing there are at least two more books after the last one to show what might happen in the aftermath. Jon was supposedly born at the TOJ, this is not the same as being REborn... I suggest you Google the concept of reincarnation. The Azor Ahai myth can be read multiple ways, and reincarnation is one possibility. If it is reincarnation, then yes, Jon's birth could fit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Twinslayer Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Sj4iy said:As for Twinslayer:I find it terribly hypocritical to laud Robb for the way he dealt with his men while criticizing Jon for his in light of the fact that Robb was ALSO betrayed by men he trusted.You misunderstood. Robb and Jon were killed for different reasons. Robb won the love of his men by interacting with them the way Ned advised. But he made bad decisions and Roose and Walder took advantage of that for their own selfish reasons.Jon made good decisions but failed even to try to win his mens' support. Jon's men killed him out of a sense of duty (same reason Jaime gives for killing Aerys). I know what Ned said. Yet, which Starks we know to be melancholic? Besides Ned. None.There is not one single indication that Lyanna was melancholic. In fact, she seemed to have been a lot like Arya who is all the opposite of what melancholia means.[\quote]We really don't know enough about Rickard, Brandon, Lyarra, Lyanna and Benjen to answer that question (although Arya can be sulky at times). All we have to go on is Ned's word. If you think he was mistaken that's fine -- he was fostered away at a young age and might not have known the Stark family very well -- but it is the best we have.It really does not matter. The original proposition was that Jon's moodiness was evidence for R+L = J because Rhaegar is described as melancholy. If we can all just agree that he could has easily acquired this trait from Ned than from Rhaegar -- in other words, it isn't evidence either for or against R+L=J -- then that can be the end of the discussion.I am familiar with that passage and it supports my point. It is the only time in ADWD when Jon eats with a group of his subordinates, and the results are good -- it is also one of the only times he gets active cooperation from them.The point of all of this is very simple. In AGOT, GRRM tells us that Ned taught his children that if they don't eat with the men, they will lose their supporters. Eating with the men symbolizes a closeness that is familiar without being friendship. This is forshadowing: now you know that when you see a leader start to think he is too good to eat with his men, he's about to be in trouble.In ADWD, GRRM has Jon think back to that exact lesson from Ned. GRRM is reminding us of it in case we have forgotten. Right after that, Jon decides he can't eat with the men any more. He is rejecting the kind of relationship that Ned told him was so important. At that point, if you are reading closely, you know what is going to happen to Jon, because GRRM has already told you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 The show has mentioned bleeding stars along with smoke and salt. It's also mentioned Lightbringer. It has not mentioned any name except "warrior of light" and other generic terms...so no PTWP or AAR.I think we see some version of the prophecy come true when Jon is betrayed on the show. I know it mentioned salt and smoke and Lightbringer but I was blanking on the bleeding star part. I'll take your word for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sj4iy Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 I know it mentioned salt and smoke and Lightbringer but I was blanking on the bleeding star part. I'll take your word for it.https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=a1OpEwhEMdc"Stars will bleed" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Then it's a good thing there are at least two more books after the last one to show what might happen in the aftermath. Jon's body gets thrown in the Ice Cells, freezes solid, and stays there for an extended period of time... The clues are all there... The Azor Ahai myth can be read multiple ways, and reincarnation is one possibility. If it is reincarnation, then yes, Jon's birth could fit. Keep telling yourself that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=a1OpEwhEMdc"Stars will bleed" Thanks. :) It is interesting that they use the word stars, plural. There is some plural disagreement in at least some readings of the prophecies. One version uses dragons as a plural (dragons from stone) and in other cases we see it as singular (two kings to wake the dragon). It seems like star might be another one, where it toggles between bleeding stars and a bleeding star. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Twinslayer Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Or a bleeding guy whose sigil is a star being killed by a giant right there...I recognize the possibility that Jon might be the PWWP, but I am going to laugh if one of the keys to a thousand year old prophecy is a random knight from some House that no one ever heard of, rather than a comet or the Sword of the Morning or something else a little more significant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonSnow4President Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 I know it mentioned salt and smoke and Lightbringer but I was blanking on the bleeding star part. I'll take your word for it. Don't you know? Only his way of reading the book is correct? Anyway, off to bed. Have to work tomorrow, and going in early so I hopefully don't have to do Sunday. Already at 15 hours unpaid overtime this week, and that's being generous with my lunch and dinner breaks. See y'all next thread, hopefully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonSnow4President Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 I recognize the possibility that Jon might be the PWWP, but I am going to laugh if one of the keys to a thousand year old prophecy is a random knight from some House that no one ever heard of, rather than a comet or the Sword of the Morning or something else a little more significant. I recognize the possibility that Jon might be the PWWP, but I am going to laugh if one of the keys to a thousand year old prophecy is a random knight from some House that no one ever heard of, rather than a comet or the Sword of the Morning or something else a little more significant. Prophecies are filled in the last way you expect. See the whole GRRM story about the King who stayed away from a castle he was foretold to die out, and ended up dying under an inn whose sign was of that castle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar Posted January 17, 2015 Share Posted January 17, 2015 Jon's body gets thrown in the Ice Cells, freezes solid, and stays there for an extended period of time... The clues are all there... Maybe, maybe not. You don't know any more than I do. Keep telling yourself that... Thanks, I will. I'm not saying that Jon's birth is definitely the "rebirth" in question, only that "reborn" can be read multiple ways, one of which is reincarnation. And denying that there are multiple plausible ways of interpreting it, given how little we actually know about the prophecy's language in its entirety, is incredibly ignorant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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