R+L=J v.128

[sj4iy]

Didn't feel the same way about that first part. But then again, never did a reread (yet), and I've only read them in my native language. The last part can make things feel a lot different. When (or if) I do a reread, I'll read them in English.

Well, we see some of Bran's dreams are more powerful, more widespread...he see things such as Robert Strong, which has absolutely no connection him at all, for example.

Now look at Jon's dreams. They are different. More personal. He wanders through Winterfell, over and over again, searching for something. He sees Greywolf after The Red Wedding. He foresees Ned and Ygritte's deaths. He sees himself fighting with Lightbringer. All of his dreams are intensely personal- unlike Bran's. They aren't as powerful as Bran's dreams, nor as widespread.

About the 2nd part, yes that sounds plausible. But GRRM putting us on the wrong foot every time isn't very realistic either. He has to be straight forward in some occasions. Then again, Jon is a big mystery..

Well, he's not really putting us on the wrong foot. It's not as if anyone has declared Jon a greenseer, for example. Jon doesn't even realize the purpose of his dreams yet, either, although he does know that they can be true (we see that he thinks Summer has been killed after the Greywind dream). But we, the audience, are supposed to think "oh, well, he's a Stark and he's having the same kind if dreams as Bran." Dragon dreams aren't supposed to come into the picture as of yet. So it's not like we are being purposely misled.

Getting a little of track here, but I would love for GRRM to come on this forum after he has revealed R+L=J , just to tell us things like: Good, you guys really got that clue. No, you have that all wrong, that part had to do with ..... and of course; Ha, I see you all missed ...... clue. I thought it was obvious... That would be funny.

Just randomly musing here, but if Jon has prophetic abilities from both his Targaryen blood and Stark blood, that probably makes him the most psychic person to ever live. Maybe that's what the "song" of ice and fire is, or the destiny of TPTWPto foresee the way to defeat the Others?

Jon has Targ & Stark blood, which probably makes him the song of ice and fire (or TPTWP, or AAR, or w/e you wan't to name it). But I don't think he will be it because he has prophetic abilities. The power of prophecy, greenseeing (e.g. having more info than others), that honor will go to Bran for sure. His storyarc has entirely been built up to that.

Sorry, I'm confused. You think that Bran will be AAR or the Song of Ice and Fire?

[sj4iy]

Hey guys,

What do you think of this new evidence?

It seems as if there were clues for R+L=J in the series also.

Here's a still of Jon Snow standing next to R L carved into the wall: http://9gag.com/gag/aj6pXw8?

Let me know what you think :)

Hi :)

Yup, we've seen that. It's in the R+L=J clues and hints document linked in the OP and my signature.

[RumHam]

But just remember- they might look harmless enough, but if you keep feeding them, they turn into Gremlins.

Only if you feed them after midnight! That always bothered me cause of time zones and daylight savings...

How is Jon a military genius? Because he held a 700 foot tall Wall that only had one entrance?

That made me laugh. When you're right, you're right.

[The Twinslayer]

Yep but it also reflects what Lyanna did, saving HR.

There is a lot of this kind of ambiguity. For example, before we see Jon brooding all the time, we get Robert described as "melancholy as a Stark." So it is not clear whether Jon gets this from Rhaegar or from the Starks.

One area that is not ambiguous is his leadership style. Ned and Robb eat with their men and take their counsel. The Targs generally think they are better than the people they lead and either try to impose their will (Maegor, Aegon V) or surround themselves with lickspittles (Aerys). Jon thinks he should not eat with his men and that the Lord Commander can't have any friends. After he sends Aemon away, he becomes domineering, he stops trying to build consensus and thinks that taking advice from his subordinates is futile because he knows what they are going to say before they say it and he does not plan to take their advice into account (echoes of Aerys calling Tywin a servant). In the end, like Aerys, Jon gets shanked by his own men.

Some could see this last part as a Stark parrallel, because Robb also was betrayed by his men. But that was a power play by Walder and Roose. If you believe Jaime and Bowen, they did what they did because they believed they were serving the greater good, which makes the parrallel to Aerys better than the one with Robb.

[Attitude]

Well, we see some of Bran's dreams are more powerful, more widespread...he see things such as Robert Strong, which has absolutely no connection him at all, for example.

Now look at Jon's dreams. They are different. More personal. He wanders through Winterfell, over and over again, searching for something. He sees Greywolf after The Red Wedding. He foresees Ned and Ygritte's deaths. He sees himself fighting with Lightbringer. All of his dreams are intensely personal- unlike Bran's. They aren't as powerful as Bran's dreams, nor as widespread.

Jon had only personal dreams, but Brann has both. That doesn't make Jon's dreams dragon dreams. It might aswell mean that Jon is a greenseer with less powers compared to Brann. Brann has the powers to forsee his own future (&history) aswell as other people's future (and/or history).

I don't necesarrely disagree. I'm just saying that because they have different dreams, it doesn't mean the one is a greenseer and the other is a 'dragonseer' or w/e you want to call it.

Well, he's not really putting us on the wrong foot. It's not as if anyone has declared Jon a greenseer, for example. Jon doesn't even realize the purpose of his dreams yet, either, although he does know that they can be true (we see that he thinks Summer has been killed after the Greywind dream). But we, the audience, are supposed to think "oh, well, he's a Stark and he's having the same kind if dreams as Bran." Dragon dreams aren't supposed to come into the picture as of yet. So it's not like we are being purposely misled.

True, Brann also only knows it because of Jojen. Yes, I assume we are supposed to think that (only GRRM knows what he wants us to think), but that doesn't mean it isn't true. Just because (let's assume he does) GRRM wants to show us a similarity between Bran's and Jon's dreams, doesn't make it true that Jon also is a greenseer, neither does it confirm that he is not. It just hints us that he also has prophetic powers, but we don't know why. Yes, the only logical explenation for most readers is: Jon has greenseer powers. But that doesn't mean GRRM will later on say: haha fooled ya he has prophetic powers because he is a Targ! It is possible that GRRM will state this, but not necesarry.

I think I've said the same thing two, maybe three times in different words, sorry if it's confusing.

Sorry, I'm confused. You think that Bran will be AAR or the Song of Ice and Fire?

No, I am just saying: I don't think that Jon's great power will be the fact that he has inherited propethic powers through his Stark & Targ bloodline. Jon will show he is AAR/TPTWP/the Song of Ice and Fire in a different way. (Helping to) defeat(ing) the others by using prophetic powers is part that Bran wil forfill.

At least, that's how I see it.

[sj4iy]

Only if you feed them after midnight! That always bothered me cause of time zones and daylight savings...

That's why it's safer never to feed them.

That made me laugh. When you're right, you're right.

Jon also gave advice to a king on how best to attack the Boltons. We also see his thoughts during the Wildling attack on CB as well as the attack on the Wall. We also see him refortifying the entire Wall- something not done for centuries.

He's 17 years old and is portrayed as a man with a genius for warfare. It's not "just based" on his holding the Wall. It's pretty much all through books 3 and 5.

[sj4iy]

Jon had only personal dreams, but Brann has both. That doesn't make Jon's dreams dragon dreams. It might aswell mean that Jon is a greenseer with less powers compared to Brann. Brann has the powers to forsee his own future (&history) aswell as other people's future (and/or history).

I don't necesarrely disagree. I'm just saying that because they have different dreams, it doesn't mean the one is a greenseer and the other is a 'dragonseer' or w/e you want to call it.

True, Brann also only knows it because of Jojen. Yes, I assume we are supposed to think that (only GRRM knows what he wants us to think), but that doesn't mean it isn't true. Just because (let's assume he does) GRRM wants to show us a similarity between Bran's and Jon's dreams, doesn't make it true that Jon also is a greenseer, neither does it confirm that he is not. It just hints us that he also has prophetic powers, but we don't know why. Yes, the only logical explenation for most readers is: Jon has greenseer powers. But that doesn't mean GRRM will later on say: haha fooled ya he has prophetic powers because he is a Targ! It is possible that GRRM will state this, but not necesarry.

I think I've said the same thing two, maybe three times in different words, sorry if it's confusing.

No, I am just saying: I don't think that Jon's great power will be the fact that he has inherited propethic powers through his Stark & Targ bloodline. Jon will show he is AAR/TPTWP/the Song of Ice and Fire in a different way. (Helping to) defeat(ing) the others by using prophetic powers is part that Bran wil forfill.

At least, that's how I see it.

I obviously can't prove they are dragon dreams. But I don't think Jon is a greenseer. That is a gift far more powerful than what Jon has. I think Bran is our only greenseer because I don't see the point in having Jon also be a greenseer. Jon's dreams are prophetic, yes- but that doesn't mean he has Bran's abilities. Like you said, Jon has a different path.

[RumHam]

Jon also gave advice to a king on how best to attack the Boltons. We also see his thoughts during the Wildling attack on CB as well as the attack on the Wall. We also see him refortifying the entire Wall- something not done for centuries.

He's 17 years old and is portrayed as a man with a genius for warfare. It's not "just based" on his holding the Wall. It's pretty much all through books 3 and 5.

I'm not saying he's not totally awesome, I just think military genius might be overstating it. He's never actually led an army or an attack on anything. Most his good decisions aren't tactical decisions, though they do help him prepare for when the real battle starts.

[Ygrain]

Actually... if holding the Wall was so simple, why does Jon seem to be praised for that? IMHO, it is not supposed to illustrate his tactical genius, rather his ability to command men.

[The Twinslayer]

Actually... if holding the Wall was so simple, why does Jon seem to be praised for that? IMHO, it is not supposed to illustrate his tactical genius, rather his ability to command men.

He also gets credit for killing The Halfhand, but we know the fight was rigged.

Being overrated may be a trait he shares with Baelor Breakspear. According to Osgrey Eustace, the "Hammer and the Anvil" was a myth made up to make Baelor and Maekar look good and to deflect attention from the fact that it was Bloodraven's kinslaying that won the Redgrass Field. By the time Baelor and Maekar arrived, Daemon Blackfyre and his sons were already dead.

To the extent that Jon is savvy about military matters, it seems likely that that one came more from Ned than from Rhaegar. For example, the main piece of advice he gives to Stannis is basically to quote Ned on how to win the loyalty of the hill clans. Rhaegar lost the only battle he ever fought even though he had superior numbers.

[markg171]

What about Dany's vision of Viserys being crowned with molten gold? We witnessed that exact scene, so the vision doesn't give us any insight.

What about the vision of the house with the red door from Dany's childhood? There's actually two visions that include the red door. Dany only mentions it a million times in the books, so why do we need to see it twice during her visions? What insight does that give us?

What about the vision of Mirri Maaz Duur shrieking in the flames as a dragon burst out of her? We know Dany burned Mirri to death, and we know her dragons hatched in the fire that night. So, where's the insight?

Saying that a vision of four men ravaging a woman can't represent the four men ravaging Westeros because we already know about the war doesn't really work when you consider the multiple other visions Dany has of things we already know about.

Those are all from the second set of visions. Not from the first set.

[Ser Creighton]

The kings might be fighting themselves but in the end, it was the Realm that was being fucked, which is what that vision literally showed. In HotU visions, it is allowed jump back and forth in time. So, Robb being dead in the RW vision and alive as a rat in another vision does not make a contradiction.

George further solidified this interpretation (i.e. 4 kings savaging the Realm) by explaining how this conflict was called War of the 5 Kings although technically, 5 kings did not exist simultaneously inside the story.

Sorry but that is so far off it makes no sense, there is nothing to indicate they are even kings or that she is the realm, nothing. Robb had a wolf head, Bran in Mels vision had a wolf head. Iron Born can look like water, oh they are savaging the land, together and they all look the exact same and nothing even indicates they are kings. Nothing, little men that look like rodents. Oh they are Rats, those Kings are rats, and ummm it's 4 of the 8 or so that will be kings or maybe 4 out of 10 we don't knnow where the number stops yet or how many wars and it's about 5 kings but we only show 4 but it could represent 4 oher kings and ummm. Bullshit. And it does not jump back and fourth through time. It has a chronological order to it, start with Rhaegar and work your way backwards. "To go forward you must go back." The last door on the left is the first door on the right." That only happens if you turn around, get it. The last vision on the left is the first vision on the right.

Aegons Birth

Aerys During Roberts Rebellion

Dany in Braavos

Red Wedding

Totally Chronological

The woman and the 4 little rat like men.

The author even tells you how to read it, the last door on the left is the first door on the right you just have to turn around. To go forward you go back. There is nothing hinting they are kings, or that they are at war, or that it is any specific kings. Nothing even alludes to that. Little rat like men that is what the author tells you, squirrels are rat like, and the Squirrel people are little.

[sj4iy]

There is a lot of this kind of ambiguity. For example, before we see Jon brooding all the time, we get Robert described as "melancholy as a Stark." So it is not clear whether Jon gets this from Rhaegar or from the Starks.

One area that is not ambiguous is his leadership style. Ned and Robb eat with their men and take their counsel. The Targs generally think they are better than the people they lead and either try to impose their will (Maegor, Aegon V) or surround themselves with lickspittles (Aerys). Jon thinks he should not eat with his men and that the Lord Commander can't have any friends. After he sends Aemon away, he becomes domineering, he stops trying to build consensus and thinks that taking advice from his subordinates is futile because he knows what they are going to say before they say it and he does not plan to take their advice into account (echoes of Aerys calling Tywin a servant). In the end, like Aerys, Jon gets shanked by his own men.

Some could see this last part as a Stark parrallel, because Robb also was betrayed by his men. But that was a power play by Walder and Roose. If you believe Jaime and Bowen, they did what they did because they believed they were serving the greater good, which makes the parrallel to Aerys better than the one with Robb.

I'm sorry, but I have to call this out as pure bullshit.

"Jon does't eat with his men like Robb!" isn't a valid criticism. It's not the reason Jon gets 'shanked'. And comparing him to Aerys is about the biggest bullshit of all.

One doesn't have to be a fan of Jon to know that your description is just outright biased and utterly laughable.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

"Melancholic as a Stark" is a valid description? Because Brandon, Lyanna and Benjen doesn't sound like melancholic people at all. Ned doesn't represent all Starks either.

[sj4iy]

"Melancholic as a Stark" is a valid description? Because Brandon, Lyanna and Benjen doesn't sound like melancholic people at all. Ned doesn't represent all Starks either.

Yeah, I didn't realize Ned was representative of all Starks. Because to be honest, he seems very quiet compared to the rest of his family.

"Melancholic as Rhaegar" sounds more on the mark, to me.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Yeah, I didn't realize Ned was representative of all Starks. Because to be honest, he seems very quiet compared to the rest of his family.

"Melancholic as Rhaegar" sounds more on the mark, to me.

To be fair, they're the odd ones in the family. The Targaryens don't fit the melancholic type either. I wonder if this is intentional from the author, that Jon is "melancholic" as both of his dads, the biological and the adoptive one who is also his uncle.

And Jon also has his own moments of "AAAAH! DON'T WAKE THE DRAGON/WOLF" that he could have very well inherited from any of his uncles.

[sj4iy]

To be fair, they're the odd ones in the family. The Targaryens don't fit the melancholic type either. I wonder if this is intentional from the author, that Jon is "melancholic" as both of his dads, the biological and the adoptive one who is also his uncle.

That's why I didn't say "Targaryen". Jon is different from other Targaryens- but he's similar to Rhaegar in that regard. So he's "Melancholic as Rhaegar".

And Jon also has his own moments of "AAAAH! DON'T WAKE THE DRAGON/WOLF" that he could have very well inherited from any of his uncles.

Yeah, I would say he definitely has his dragon moments:

“The ground is half-frozen. It must have taken the wildlings half the night to drive the spears so deep."

...

Jon Snow grasped the spear that bore Garth Greyfeather’s head and wrenched it violently from the ground.

[Anananda]

Hi :)

Yup, we've seen that. It's in the R+L=J clues and hints document linked in the OP and my signature.

True. Didn't realize, my apologies. That's a very comprehensive document. Great job!

[sj4iy]

True. Didn't realize, my apologies. That's a very comprehensive document. Great job!

Thanks :) Still working on it. Always open to suggestions, if you have any- for the books or show.

[Mithras]

Sorry but that is so far off it makes no sense, there is nothing to indicate they are even kings or that she is the realm, nothing. Robb had a wolf head, Bran in Mels vision had a wolf head. Iron Born can look like water, oh they are savaging the land, together and they all look the exact same and nothing even indicates they are kings. Nothing, little men that look like rodents. Oh they are Rats, those Kings are rats, and ummm it's 4 of the 8 or so that will be kings or maybe 4 out of 10 we don't knnow where the number stops yet or how many wars and it's about 5 kings but we only show 4 but it could represent 4 oher kings and ummm. Bullshit. And it does not jump back and fourth through time. It has a chronological order to it, start with Rhaegar and work your way backwards. "To go forward you must go back." The last door on the left is the first door on the right." That only happens if you turn around, get it. The last vision on the left is the first vision on the right.

Aegons Birth

Aerys During Roberts Rebellion

Dany in Braavos

Red Wedding

Totally Chronological

The woman and the 4 little rat like men.

The author even tells you how to read it, the last door on the left is the first door on the right you just have to turn around. To go forward you go back. There is nothing hinting they are kings, or that they are at war, or that it is any specific kings. Nothing even alludes to that. Little rat like men that is what the author tells you, squirrels are rat like, and the Squirrel people are little.

Except George has a well established flesh metaphor which spans throughout the series.