Nyrhex Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 I think the Umbers and maybe Robb win their fights but agree with the restt. The Greatjon was named by Jaime as one of the few men who could defeat him, so that should count for something. Stannis is in his prime and has far more experiance than Robb. Add the Baratheon build and it's not really a contest unless Robb was specifically mentioned as a superior swordsman, which he is noticably isn't. The Greatjon is stronger than Jaime, not a better swordsman. Horpe is a seasoned killer with the skill to be a kingsguard. Skill>size usually. The Smalljon has been to half a dozen battles, hald of them minor. Storm was a seasoned killer by the period of the books, and survived the single largest battle in the history of Westeros. I really don't see how a 16-year old Robb or two guys noted solely for thier size rather than skill are a match for 3 guys in thier prime with tons of war experiance, and of those 2 are specifically note-worthy for thier skill at arms. How is a Storm anymore of a veteran killer then SmallJon? If anything SmallJon has fought in more battles in Storm. Smalljon is fighting his first war, and has half a dozen battles. Half of those minor ones. Storm was a seasoned killer since before the books. We did not see those battles, but like every other character who is said to have been a "veteran of this many battles" etc, what we see on page is not all that there was. Judging by what little of him we do see or rather hear of in the course of the books, the rep is completely justified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pettes Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 Mallister is one of the best fighters in the realm. Robb fights his battles in front Stannis in the rear. I would say Robb has more battle experience than Stannis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desire Posted July 20, 2015 Share Posted July 20, 2015 would Love to see Horpe fighting the GreatJon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihlus Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 Is Greatjon ever actually said to be a great warrior, or is everyone just assuming he's top-tier because he's described as broadly built and close to seven feet tall? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddy of the Godswood Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 Is Greatjon ever actually said to be a great warrior, or is everyone just assuming he's top-tier because he's described as broadly built and close to seven feet tall? Most Umbers are known as prime fighting men, and being seven feet tall and strong as hell is an added bonus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihlus Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 Most Umbers are known as prime fighting men, and being seven feet tall and strong as hell is an added bonus. That doesn't really answer my question. Is he said to be one of the best fighters in Westeros, as this forum often says he is? Or is the logic "he's been in battles and is 6'10 or something, so he must be one of the best fighters ever"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancho Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 Godry Farring kills giants, Richard Horpe was suposed to be on the kingsguard sometime ago and for sure can hand the heat, Clayton Suggs looks and probably fights like a beast... Rolland Storm can hold an army with a stick.. Stannis men are no Underdog here.. Only The Lannisters have/had more beasts on his crew... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddy of the Godswood Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 That doesn't really answer my question. Is he said to be one of the best fighters in Westeros, as this forum often says he is? Or is the logic "he's been in battles and is 6'10 or something, so he must be one of the best fighters ever"? There's nothing else we can really know without having a POV either see him fight, or directly remember him fighting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chancho Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 who would be crazy to defy this team? Jaime, Sandor, Gregor, Lyle, Addam, Bronn, Ilyn/Daven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stag_legion Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 Umber hype is all based on the impressive brawl at the red wedding but that's all because the freys wanted him alive as a hostage, if they actually wanted him dead, he d go down like the rest. stannis' men are trained experienced killers, that counts more than size. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boarsbane Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 Umber hype is all based on the impressive brawl at the red wedding but that's all because the freys wanted him alive as a hostage, if they actually wanted him dead, he d go down like the rest. stannis' men are trained experienced killers, that counts more than size. And Robb's men aren't? As already said Robb's men are probably even more seasoned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihlus Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 There's nothing else we can really know without having a POV either see him fight, or directly remember him fighting. Just checking. Because, like, size and strength indeed a huge (heh) advantage in medieval combat, especially when the combatants are wearing plate armor, but I've never understood why people rate Greatjon so highly based solely on that. There are other guys close to his size or bigger. Why aren't Erryk and Arryk rated in the top tier? They're really big. Around seven feet tall, and they obviously have at least as much training as Greatjon given that they were picked as guards for Olenna. Heck, why isn't Stannis himself in the top tier? He's broadly built, very tall, and muscular. Should be around pre-weight-gain Robert's size. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boarsbane Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 Just checking. Because, like, size and strength indeed a huge (heh) advantage in medieval combat, especially when the combatants are wearing plate armor, but I've never understood why people rate Greatjon so highly based solely on that. There are other guys close to his size or bigger. Why aren't Erryk and Arryk rated in the top tier? They're really big. Around seven feet tall, and they obviously have at least as much training as Greatjon given that they were picked as guards for Olenna. Heck, why isn't Stannis himself in the top tier? He's broadly built, very tall, and muscular. Should be around pre-weight-gain Robert's size. He isn't top tier, he is just much better than the men the OP gave Stannis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihlus Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 He isn't top tier, he is just much better than the men the OP gave Stannis I really doubt that, as several of the men in the OP are actually renowned fighters. Also, I wasn't specifically talking about this thread. Just in general. I've seen people claiming that Greatjon could beat Sandor or Gregor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stag_legion Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 And Robb's men aren't? As already said Robb's men are probably even more seasoned. some probably are, but northmen are described more so as hardy people, as in people who could subsist on little and live in hard conditions, but that doesn't necessarily translate into being the best at arms. Stormalnders on the other hand are specifically mentioned in text to be a martial people, and there is a lot of support for that in text with the great number of really skilled fighters who hail from the stormlands, not to mention that their overlord house consistently produced men with herculean characteristics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thelittledragonthatcould Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 some probably are, but northmen are described more so as hardy people, as in people who could subsist on little and live in hard conditions, but that doesn't necessarily translate into being the best at arms. Stormalnders on the other hand are specifically mentioned in text to be a martial people, and there is a lot of support for that in text with the great number of really skilled fighters who hail from the stormlands, not to mention that their overlord house consistently produced men with herculean characteristics. Robb is drawing off the entire North and Riverlands while Stannis has most of the Stormlands and a small part of the Reach. It stands to reason that Robb will be able to assemble a better 7 simply because he has more men to chose from. I think people are choosing the Stormlands as we have seen more of their warrior class than we have of Robbs. Stannis and his men have lost their lands so importance is more of a meritocracy rather than based on lands and titles. We don't see the Clayton Suggs or Godry Farring equivalents with Robbs army as our POV is Cat and she is dealing with the Lords and leaders rather than their retainers. The Greatjon is probably one of the most fearsome Lords in Westeros but I doubt he is one of Robb's 7 best warriors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Stark thenewwolf Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 Two handed Jaime thinks of greatjon as someone who might be able to beat him...I don't think anyone on the other team made that list Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Arthur Hightower Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 Robb is drawing off the entire North and Riverlands while Stannis has most of the Stormlands and a small part of the Reach. It stands to reason that Robb will be able to assemble a better 7 simply because he has more men to chose from. I think people are choosing the Stormlands as we have seen more of their warrior class than we have of Robbs. Stannis and his men have lost their lands so importance is more of a meritocracy rather than based on lands and titles. We don't see the Clayton Suggs or Godry Farring equivalents with Robbs army as our POV is Cat and she is dealing with the Lords and leaders rather than their retainers. The Greatjon is probably one of the most fearsome Lords in Westeros but I doubt he is one of Robb's 7 best warriors. Since most of the infantry won't be suitable for fights like this (all the competitors will be heavy cavalrymen) Stannis probably had a larger pool than Robb. Stannis had more than 16,000 knights and men-at-arms prior to the Blackwater, Robb brought 4,500 northern cavalry south and we only see 4,000 Riverlands cavalry throughout the war, so in that sense Stannis has almost twice as many men to draw on. Even if we use speculative numbers for Riverlands and northern cavalry, the Riverlands probably doesn't add up to more than 8-9,000, with the north maybe around 7,000. So they have roughly the same number, probably slightly more for Robb, if you want to be generous. I simply think people are underestimating Bryce Caron, Guyard Morrigan, Rolland Storm, and so on, whilst bigging up the Greatjon a bit. I agree with your point that we likely didn't even see some of Robb's best fighters, they would have been men-at-arms and lower born knights that Cat wouldn't have had any interaction with. However the same is true for Stannis, according to Davos' estimate he has 100 knights who are well above average. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wavey Sauce Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 would Love to see Horpe fighting the GreatJon Greatjon is great and really strong but I think Horpe would win. He would have been one of the better kings guard and was a clear choice but Cersei spoke against him. (think cause he liked killing too much) But for Cersei to be somewhat afraid of you, have to be somewhat of a bad ass Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wavey Sauce Posted July 23, 2015 Share Posted July 23, 2015 Mallister is one of the best fighters in the realm. Robb fights his battles in front Stannis in the rear. I would say Robb has more battle experience than Stannis. Stannis was fighting battles and a commander before Robb even knew how to swing a sword Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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