Small Questions v.10095

[Ice Walker]

^ I meant by ravens. Surely there must be some that can go to Riverrun from one of the other northern houses.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Why is it that even with the knowledge of the dragonseeds, most fans refuse to accept the possibility of "more hidden Targs"?

No one rejects that possibility. There might be one or two to be revealed. But those have to be characters who are, in any way, related or linked to the Targaryens. For example, if Tyrion is thought to be Aerys' son is because his mother was rumoured to have had an affair with Aerys. If Varys and Illyrio are believed to be Blackfyres is because not only the Blackfyres were exiled to Essos (from where they both come from) but because they are currently with a kid that seems to be a Blackfyre.

[Jon Weirgaryen]

Heh, could be, but that would only work if the Westerosi language actually is English

No, there are a few Germanic/saxon-related languages where this works.

Since GRRM knows only English, everything is English.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Do we have a source for when the She-Wolves of Winterfell is supposed to take place/Lord Beron Stark dies/how big the timegap between She-Wolves and TMK is supposed to be?

[RumHam]

Do we have a source for when the She-Wolves of Winterfell is supposed to take place/Lord Beron Stark dies/how big the timegap between She-Wolves and TMK is supposed to be?

GRRM did mention at last nights meal that he had been working on D&E Part 3 but wrapping it up wasn't as easy as he hoped. But he is close. Originally it took place right after tSS but now he has decided to give it a 1.5 year gap but that means another round of mods to ensure the timeline works. (A 1.5 year gap makes sense to me if he wants to continue to progress Egg's story up to and beyond him taking the crown). He also reminded me of the state of the Starks 100 years ago...

SPOILER: Starks 100 years ago

I was suggesting it would be nice to see the Starks in power, without the current disarray. But GRRM pointed out that things were not so good 90 years either, with a lot of Stark widows struggling for power, with the current lord dieing from a wound taken against some Ironborn. Although I could have the reason for his wound up. I'm reading the RPG game book at the moment and I might be mixing things together. There is a lot of Stark kids around though, so ending the line wasn't a problem. I think he said 10 children, from various Starks members.

Oh, and I don't know whether the Starks are actually going to feature in the next book. It does seem like he has an idea about a Stark story though.

Anyone remember what he called the Stark widows btw? Wolf crones or something?

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1408

He mentioned something about five Lady Starks running Winterfell -- the Wolf Women or something like that -- with four of them widows of a bunch of fairly recent former Lord Starks, and the current Lady Stark, whose 30-something husband is fading fast from a wound taken from fighting the Ironborn.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1409

[Have there ever been a ruling Lady of Winterfell or Queen of Winter?]

No. Although I do hope to someday write the Dunk & Egg story where they travel to Winterfell and meet the She-Wolves.

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Various_questions_concerning_Tywin_Oberyn_Gregor_the_North_and_Sansa

Edit: The problem is while he says he's working on the next story and it will be 1.5 years later, he doesn't actually say that the next story will be the one in Winterfell. It could be "The Village Hero" and then this guy just asked about the Starks.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1408

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/1409

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Various_questions_concerning_Tywin_Oberyn_Gregor_the_North_and_Sansa

I found the first two myself as well, but the first one is speaking about TMK, and that taking place 1,5 years after TSS, it would seem (a plan that apparently has been abandoned, as both tales take place in 211).

Or am I misinterpreting this?

[RumHam]

Yeah, don't mind me, I can't count.

[Lord Varys]

Working on Arianne I right now, has anybody a clue how the wiki deduced that Turturer's Deep, the Lord of the Waters base of operations, is a harbor rather than, say, a small Stepstone island, or a rocky island off the coast of Dorne somewhere else (say, in the Sea of Dorne). Has George ever being asked about that?

[Details help with the German translation.]

[Lost Melnibonean]

Aftermath of Battle at Winterfell: What I don't get is that Rodrik's host included all sort of Stark bannermen and quite a few escaped. The betrayal of Boltons is a pretty huge thing and yet, none of them seem to have reported back. Even if there was differing accounts, the burning of Winterfell should have reached the KitN somehow(not just the Bolton version). It just seems weird that Wex Pyke was able to witness and escape while 1000s of other "soldiers" just let it go. Or is there some passages that I missed?

If the men in Stannis's host did not know about Bolton's treachery at Winterfell, why would they be so eager to bathe in Bolton blood before they die? I don't think their suspicion regarding the Red Wedding would be sufficient.

[RumHam]

Working on Arianne I right now, has anybody a clue how the wiki deduced that Turturer's Deep, the Lord of the Waters base of operations, is a harbor rather than, say, a small Stepstone island, or a rocky island off the coast of Dorne somewhere else (say, in the Sea of Dorne). Has George ever being asked about that?

[Details help with the German translation.]

That he set up on Torturer's Deep as opposed to at or in Torturer's Deep suggests to me that it is an island as opposed to a settlement. But that's the only time it seems to come up.

[Lord Varys]

That was my thinking as well. Go with the island connotation, then.

[Ice Walker]

If the men in Stannis's host did not know about Bolton's treachery at Winterfell, why would they be so eager to bathe in Bolton blood before they die? I don't think their suspicion regarding the Red Wedding would be sufficient.

That's my point. It just doesn't make any sense that Robb didn't receive any other version on the Sack of Winterfell.

[Lord Varys]

Other thing there:

Does it time-line-wise make sense that Doran and not 'the Princess of Dorne' (Doran and Oberyn's mother) would have be the one to act to make a peace and sent Oberyn to Oldtown following the death of Lord Edgar Yronwood...? Surely, Doran would have advised her, but his mother was still the Princess of Dorne at that point.

[RumHam]

Other thing there:

Does it time-line-wise make sense that Doran and not 'the Princess of Dorne' (Doran and Oberyn's mother) would have be the one to act to make a peace and sent Oberyn to Oldtown following the death of Lord Edgar Yronwood...? Surely, Doran would have advised her, but his mother was still the Princess of Dorne at that point.

Remind me, how do we know the nameless princess was ruling at that point? I see it on the wiki but with no source. Anyway a possible explanation could be that she was old and not of sound mind and that Doran was handling the actual governing.

[Lord Varys]

ASoS makes it pretty clear that the Princess of Dorne was the one who arranged the marriage between Rhaegar and Elia, suggesting that she was around at least until 179 AC, although she may have died before the actual wedding. Doran would have been 26 or so when Oberyn was 16, which could even be a hint that he was in Essos at that point, on his grand journey which resulted in his marriage to Mellario. Or not. But the chances that Doran was Prince of Dorne or actually ruling at this point makes little sense.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

ASoS makes it pretty clear that the Princess of Dorne was the one who arranged the marriage between Rhaegar and Elia, suggesting that she was around at least until 179 AC, although she may have died before the actual wedding. Doran would have been 26 or so when Oberyn was 16, which could even be a hint that he was in Essos at that point, on his grand journey which resulted in his marriage to Mellario. Or not. But the chances that Doran was Prince of Dorne or actually ruling at this point makes little sense.

Doran and Mellario were at Sunspear when Oberyn, Elia and their mothet went to CR. Do Dorand trip tool place some time before Tyrions birth

[RumHam]

ASoS makes it pretty clear that the Princess of Dorne was the one who arranged the marriage between Rhaegar and Elia, suggesting that she was around at least until 179 AC, although she may have died before the actual wedding. Doran would have been 26 or so when Oberyn was 16, which could even be a hint that he was in Essos at that point, on his grand journey which resulted in his marriage to Mellario. Or not. But the chances that Doran was Prince of Dorne or actually ruling at this point makes little sense.

Oh right. Is there also something else more specific about when she died? cause the wiki claims:

Doran's mother died during or shortly after Robert's Rebellion and Doran succeeded her.

but as you say she could have died in 179, even before the actual wedding.

Anyway you should point that out to Ran so it can be fixed before publication.

[Lord Varys]

Okay, but this means it took Doran and Mellario quite some time to conceive children. Anyway, that is not really the point, the point is that line from Arianne 1:

'Blood feud and rebellion would surely have followed Lord Edgar's death, had not her father [Doran Martell] acted at once. The Red Viper went to Oldtown, thence across to the narrow sea to Lys, though none dared call it exile. And in due time, Quentyn was given to Lord Anders to foster as a sign of trust.'

Since TWoW has not yet been published, somebody should tell George that this should be changed or clarified so that it becomes clear whether Doran made a decision when actually his mother should have been calling the shots.

RumHum,

if I remember correctly, then Elia is called the sister of the Prince of Dorne when her wedding is discussed in TWoIaF, suggesting that her mother would have been dead by then - else it would probably read 'the daughter of the Princess of Dorne'.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

Doran and Mellario were still betrothed in 273 AC, and had their first child in 276 AC. With a pregnancy starting in 275 AC, that leaves a period of 2 years in which Doran and Mellario got married at some point.

Oberyn turned 16 in either 273 AC or 274 AC..

Anyway, we know that Oberyn's mother died years after Tyrion's birth, not around the same time.

"At Oldtown we learned of your mother’s death, and the monstrous child she had borne. We might have turned back there, but my mother chose to sail on. I told you of the welcome we found at Casterly Rock.

“What I did not tell you was that my mother waited as long as was decent, and then broached your father about our purpose. Years later, on her deathbed, she told me that Lord Tywin had refused us brusquely. His daughter was meant for Prince Rhaegar, he informed her. And when she asked for Jaime, to espouse Elia, he offered her you instead.”

"Years later" would suggest quite a few years after the visit to CR.

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

RumHum,

if I remember correctly, then Elia is called the sister of the Prince of Dorne when her wedding is discussed in TWoIaF, suggesting that her mother would have been dead by then - else it would probably read 'the daughter of the Princess of Dorne'.

True, TWOIAF seems to suggest that in 279 AC, Doran's mother was dead. Combined with Oberyn's "years later", and the general timeline of House Martell (as Oberyn would have needed to actually be in Westeros when she was dying), we get a few possibilities.

Oberyn was born in 257 or 258 AC, and thus was 16 in either 273 AC, 274 AC, or 275 AC.. Nymeria Sand was born in either 274 AC or 275 AC..So nine months before her birth, Oberyn was not in Westeros.

Tyene was born in 276 AC or 277 AC.. For her conception, Oberyn would have needed to have been in Westeros again (not necessarily for her birth, though).

We further know that Oberyn was in Westeros in 281 AC, as he was present at the Harrenhal tourney.

Oberyn went into exile, returned to the Seven Kingdoms to study at the Citadel for at least a year, possibly more, and then returned to Essos to fight with the Second Sons, (the Tyrion chapters from Dance suggest that he did so for minimally a year) before he formed his own company..

Btw, the App does state that it was Doran's mother who arranged the betrothal.. Perhaps she died before the actual wedding..

Edit: What are you translating Winds of Winter stuff for? :)