Do you think the Unsullied can withstand a heavy horse charge?

[Pod The Rod]

Deliberate parodying of bad posts?

If that's what you were doing then I apologize. If not, then IDK what to say.

[Oafkeeper]

Uh, of course. That is what cavalry does.

If it is trained to. Well trained heavy cavelry would struggle. I can recall an occasion where Roman heavy horse feigned flight then turned about to take the enemy by suprise. They were a trained unit that had trained and fought together for decades.

Medieval knights? Where every man is a lord and they don't train together in peace time? Where glory is individual there is no concept of the unit?

No.

Anyway, if there is no one on the field the Unsullied would just follow them and give them no space to reform.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Like for example at the Battle of Hastings?

And the Unsullied infantry outrunning mounted knights? Please.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

First of all, this has been very interesting reading, especially BBE's posts.

Second, obviously the Unsullied will do whatever GRRM needs them to do, within reason.

Third, having said that, I think the story shows enough instances where the Unsullied would be vulnerable. As others have said, Qohor is as much about Dothraki idiocy as it is about the Unsullied being awesome. Will Westerosi commanders decline flanking? Doubtful. We also only ever really see them as guards or in other defensive positions; nothing indicates, as evidenced in Quentyn's chapters, that sellswords are used to fighting them or even seeing them in offensive combat.

They also seem highly vulnerable to asymmetric warfare, as shown by the Harpy. How curious that Dorne and the crannogmen specialize in asymmetric warfare.

I don't think anyone doubts their discipline or their resolve or whatever you want to call it. But at the end of the day stuff like physics has to take over. And precedent. You can't show these guys as sitting ducks for guerrilla fighters and then out of the blue remove that vulnerability for no good reason.

[Chaircat Meow]

It is likely the unsullied were just a tool for Dany to take over Slavers Bay. They probably won't play a decisive role in the invasion of westeros.

[Ser Cold Fingers]

With respect, there's exactly one person whose word on this topic would cause anyone to 'get served', and his initials are G, R, R, and M.

The answer to whether the Unsullied could stand a heavy horse charge is 'they can if GRRM says so' (or, perhaps, 'they can't if GRRM says they can't'.) Anything else is speculation. Some of those speculations are informed by stuff we've read in the books, or stuff we've read about real-world situations we think are comparable, but they're still just our opinions. Any of us might prove to be wrong, no matter how well-informed we think we are. It's good to remember that.

My own speculation is that the Unsullied would likely be well trained enough to avoid a situation where they have to face such a charge: as I understand it, heavy horse charges were relatively rare in medieval battles because suitable terrain for one was not always available (and commanders usually weren't rash enough to give battle on terrain like that). But if they had to, their discipline would probably hold. The one thing we're told over and over about them is that discipline, after all. So they'd stand, and probably suffer heavy losses, but they'd have a chance, at least, of repelling the charge.

THIS! So much This!

[Ser Cold Fingers]

First of all, this has been very interesting reading, especially BBE's posts.

Second, obviously the Unsullied will do whatever GRRM needs them to do, within reason.

Third, having said that, I think the story shows enough instances where the Unsullied would be vulnerable. As others have said, Qohor is as much about Dothraki idiocy as it is about the Unsullied being awesome. Will Westerosi commanders decline flanking? Doubtful. We also only ever really see them as guards or in other defensive positions; nothing indicates, as evidenced in Quentyn's chapters, that sellswords are used to fighting them or even seeing them in offensive combat.

They also seem highly vulnerable to asymmetric warfare, as shown by the Harpy. How curious that Dorne and the crannogmen specialize in asymmetric warfare.

I don't think anyone doubts their discipline or their resolve or whatever you want to call it. But at the end of the day stuff like physics has to take over. And precedent. You can't show these guys as sitting ducks for guerrilla fighters and then out of the blue remove that vulnerability for no good reason.

And a lot of this.

This topic dissolved greatly since I was involved. I'm going back to the Benjen fathered Jon thread and beat up on those guys for a while...

[the storm king returns]

The unsullied have the extreme discipline required to just stand there in perfect formation while thousands of angry knights are charging at you, so yes I do think they can do it.

[assjfjgjsgjljljglgjfjsduar]

The unsullied have the extreme discipline required to just stand there in perfect formation while thousands of angry knights are charging at you, so yes I do

think they can do it.

All that really guarantees is that they don't cut and run. But if you're about to get mowed down by a warhorse, "discipline" only goes so far.

[OldGimletEye]

I am on the fence about this issue. But, it would seem to me that the way to deal with the Unsullied would be just send a force of heavily armored infantry against them. It seems their short swords would have a hard time penetrating Westerosi plate armor. In other words, just dismount at least some of the knights.

[Mithras]

We are yet to see how will they fare against the legions of New Ghis.

[TallTyrion]

We are yet to see how will they fare against the legions of New Ghis.

I'm guessing they are going to smash the Yunkai forces but that's more to do with the dysfunctional command structure of the siege rather than how good the unsullied are.

[Señor de la Tormenta]

being westerosi knights descrribed as 1300-1400 bc heavy cavalry, and the unsullied as 300-400 ac semi heavy infantery, theres amost like 2000 years of evolution in warfare between them.

now, we must unlist try to give logic answers. Martin can do whatever he wants, but we cant use this as a device to avoide any topic.

[Berkilak]

being westerosi knights descrribed as 1300-1400 bc heavy cavalry, and the unsullied as 300-400 ac semi heavy infantery, theres amost like 2000 years of evolution in warfare between them.

now, we must unlist try to give logic answers. Martin can do whatever he wants, but we cant use this as a device to avoide any topic.

Indeed. A day or two ago, my brother and his friend were debating the age old question: who wins in a fight between Superman and Goku? The arguments present for Goku were pretty overwhelming, so it was countered with, "Yeah, but DC wouldn't let them publish something where Superman loses." There may be some degree of truth to that, but for the purposes of the debate, it's neither here nor there.

[Señor de la Tormenta]

Indeed. A day or two ago, my brother and his friend were debating the age old question: who wins in a fight between Superman and Goku? The arguments present for Goku were pretty overwhelming, so it was countered with, "Yeah, but DC wouldn't let them publish something where Superman loses." There may be some degree of truth to that, but for the purposes of the debate, it's neither here nor there.

Exactly, because if we are going to start using the "it doesnt matter, because Martin can do whatever he wants" card, we better just go and close 90% of the threads and keep with the ones about who is your favourite chracater and silly stuff like that.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Exactly, because if we are going to start using the "it doesnt matter, because Martin can do whatever he wants" card, we better just go and close 90% of the threads and keep with the ones about who is your favourite chracater and silly stuff like that.

It's not just that "because Martin" but because Martin has created certain rules for things to happen in his universe, even they seem impossible or improbable in our universe. So, while I think that "realistic" Unsullied couldn't, the Unsullied in the text could or at least, would have a chance. After all, Incas weren't defeated by the Spanish armed with firearms, armours and horses but by their own civil war and an Empire that was a political mess.

[mormont]

And these officers is what the Unsullied lack.

I don't have my books to hand, but IIRC the purchasers of Unsullied are supposed to supply the commanders? Now, this obviously means Unsullied don't have officers themselves... but IMO it would also imply that they are used to taking commands, and their training must be broad and flexible enough to allow them to be commanded by whoever may buy them.

There is a tendency to suppose that Essosi armies are totally inflexible and can only fight one way, largely because that's the particular way they're famed for. But I'm sceptical of the idea that this means they can't adapt or learn new tactics, and especially the notion that this is true of the Unsullied in particular, who spend their lives training and are explicitly a commercial product. No use selling troops who have only one trick up their sleeve. It's also worth remembering that the Unsullied are highly disciplined, but that does not mean they're automatons. They're intelligent and rational, surely more than capable of picking up new orders and tactics - and pretty quickly, I would think. Learning to make war is not just their job: it's their life.

Well, its fiction, so if you want to believe the Unsullied are super human, fine.

We don't need to 'believe' it, the author goes to some lengths to establish it. We know that Unsullied have inhuman discipline and don't feel pain.

[The_Noctua]

being westerosi knights descrribed as 1300-1400 bc heavy cavalry, and the unsullied as 300-400 ac semi heavy infantery, theres amost like 2000 years of evolution in warfare between them.

Military evolution is not a straight line, though. The decline and fall of Rome made it possible for the horse-based armies of the barbarian tribes to beat the infantry based armies of the declining Roman Empire. The fall of Rome caused the decline of infantry in the middle ages, and the rise of heavy horse, until the 14th-15th century. Yes, heavy cavalry is a force to be reckoned with, but I believe that the Macedonian phalanx would beat a charge of heavy horse, assuming it comes from the front. The Unsullied specifically, however? They are more akin to the Greek phalanx, because they use spears instead of pikes. Not only that, but their armour is lighter. On the other hand, the Unsullied are have nigh superhuman mental strength and their discipline in unbreakable, which makes up for it. Their lighter armour makes them more maneuverable, thus harder to flank. As long as the Unsullied make sure to use spears longer than the lances of cavalry they will be fine, I think.

[Waters Gate]

With respect, there's exactly one person whose word on this topic would cause anyone to 'get served', and his initials are G, R, R, and M.

The answer to whether the Unsullied could stand a heavy horse charge is 'they can if GRRM says so' (or, perhaps, 'they can't if GRRM says they can't'.) Anything else is speculation. Some of those speculations are informed by stuff we've read in the books, or stuff we've read about real-world situations we think are comparable, but they're still just our opinions. Any of us might prove to be wrong, no matter how well-informed we think we are. It's good to remember that.

My own speculation is that the Unsullied would likely be well trained enough to avoid a situation where they have to face such a charge: as I understand it, heavy horse charges were relatively rare in medieval battles because suitable terrain for one was not always available (and commanders usually weren't rash enough to give battle on terrain like that). But if they had to, their discipline would probably hold. The one thing we're told over and over about them is that discipline, after all. So they'd stand, and probably suffer heavy losses, but they'd have a chance, at least, of repelling the charge.

I find this an extremely weak argument in context of this discussion. If all comes down to "only GRRM can say it" then we should have put it on the first post and be done with the discussion. Like that we can avoid loads of discussions too, like could Hot Pie win VS the hound? Only GRRM can tell?

Seriously the hound would beat Hot pie to pulp and you know it.

In fact if Grrm would need to be the judge of everything, we could aswell close this forum and just wait for the new books to come out.

Seriosuly, we can debate this topic with what the majority would consider "rational arguments", just like we could debate the hot pie vs the hound case with rational arguments. I don't have so much issue to make rational arguments to say that the Hound would beat hot pie, i mean hot pie has no martial training whatsoever and the hound splits dudes in 2 along the waist. The hounds is also rather more strong and furious and experienced.

And it just happened to be that you made an attempt to add a rational argument after you first almost dismissed the practice of using rational arguments to make one's case in this discussion. It seems a bit unfair, it's like saying that the oppinions of those who hold the opposing view can be easily dismissed and thereby you avoid the opposing arguments, but then you add one which we really should consider, even debate?

------------------------

And now to get back to the topic

For me the crucial weak spot of the unsullied is their lack of armor. To be fair, if someone would just upgrade the Unsullied to wear some significant armor then i don't see why they wouldn't be top notch units. The unsullied have great organization and dicipline and if you combine that with good equipment and leadership/tactics then i guess thats all you need to have a effective unit for practicly everywhere.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I don't have my books to hand, but IIRC the purchasers of Unsullied are supposed to supply the commanders? Now, this obviously means Unsullied don't have officers themselves... but IMO it would also imply that they are used to taking commands, and their training must be broad and flexible enough to allow them to be commanded by whoever may buy them.

There is a tendency to suppose that Essosi armies are totally inflexible and can only fight one way, largely because that's the particular way they're famed for. But I'm sceptical of the idea that this means they can't adapt or learn new tactics, and especially the notion that this is true of the Unsullied in particular, who spend their lives training and are explicitly a commercial product. No use selling troops who have only one trick up their sleeve. It's also worth remembering that the Unsullied are highly disciplined, but that does not mean they're automatons. They're intelligent and rational, surely more than capable of picking up new orders and tactics - and pretty quickly, I would think. Learning to make war is not just their job: it's their life.

Yes, the purchasers would have to supply those officers. Of course talking about Dany's Unsullied, she has none.

And while the Unsullied probably adapt swiftly on the grunt level, they'd need officers and NCO's to drill them, which they lack. Training those takes a loooong time though, making it impossible for, let's say Barristan, to form an officer corpse during this generation.