Do you think the Unsullied can withstand a heavy horse charge?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

I think that at this point its worth looking at the physical arithmetic of this business of heavy lancers supposedly being able to ride down anything that gets in their way.

Lances varied in length according to their purpose, but the maximum practical length which can be handled by a man on horseback is 12 feet - twice the height of a tall man.Even then in order to carry it more or less level or angled slightly downwards, its necessary to couch it as seen in jousting, ie; its tucked under the armpit.

Well and good, but tucking it under the armpit in this way means that its projecting in front of the cavalryman by 10 feet, not 12 feet. Next consider that by definition a cavalryman is sitting on a horse. Now a horse is normally reckoned to measure about 7 foot 6in from its arse to its head, but of course an armoured knight needs a larger and heavier destrier, so say a length of 8 feet. The cavalryman sits in the middle of this horse so that in fact his 12 foot lance only projects 6 feet beyond his horse's ears.

Opposite him stands a [scottish?] spearman with a 12 foot spear. Notionally its the same length as the lance, but, in awaiting the charge he crouches or kneels and jams the butt into the ground and braces it with his foot. That spear is now projecting about 11 feet in front of him. Now obviously we can play about a bit with the length of the spear but anything over 7 feet will still outreach the cavalryman's lance.

But it gets worse.

Returning to the horse, its reckoned for the purposes of designing gates and pathways and the like that the width of a horse and rider is about 4 feet from outside leg to outside leg. Again an armoured knight on a big horse might be a touch wider but lets stick with 4 feet. The problem here is that two spearmen can stand in that 4 foot space and our knight [or rather his horse] is therefore facing two spearpoints. Except he's not, because braced up against the backs of those two spearmen are two more spearmen forming the second rank and their spearpoints are levelled just inches behind those of the front rank, with those of the third rank a little further back still. The problem you see is that our gallant lancer is not trying to ride down one man but six. He of course may well have a second or third rank behind him, but they can't use their lances while he's in front of them.

And then to compound his misery those infantrymen are not stupid. Their primary aim and the reason why they level their spears low is to kill the horses. The armoured knights don't matter. At Falkirk, thanks to the English archers the knights won in the end with relatively light casualties in men, but as I said earlier the compensation claims for dead horses made the exchequer weep. Lose, as happened at Stirling Bridge and Bannockburn and its a different matter and its at this point that the unhorsed cavalrymen start wishing they had listened to Mother and gone into the church instead.

All true. For pikemen. Though two ranks is still awfully thin. Sacrifice the first guy (and with his armor he has damn good chances to survive and you'll get a gap and the infantrymen are done for.

These seem somewhat on the high side. I mean, 8 years is enough for many to go from being page to a full-fledged knight. 16 years is longer than the Unsullied's entire training. I'm assuming, though, that in that 'senior NCO' estimate is included years of service as a more junior NCO rank, and so it would include a fair chunk of experience, rather than pure training. I also think that in a medieval army, serving professional soldiers with eight years' training would be quite rare. I can't imagine that this was a necessity.

So let's say it takes three years to train up someone from the ranks, in normal circumstances. Again, I reckon considerably less in the case of someone whose entire life from age 5 has been devoted to military training, to a degree of magnitude unimaginable in a modern army. I could see it taking maybe a year to two years to train an Unsullied to be a decent battlefield NCO, two to three times longer to be an officer, depending how much time you had to spend on it. And I imagine most of that would be 'on the job'. Not 'generations' by any means.

Straight from the law. You asked after modern ones after all.

By the way, every single knight would have at least eight years training. More like fourteen when he is knighted, and another twenty or more before he is considered an experienced officer (high nobility nonwithstanding). Similarly for their serjeants.

As for the second paragraph, that's not far wrong. Of course you need to start with the officers, so that they can teach their subordinates in turn. So, eight years? And still missing one tier of officers in between, let's put them at another four years, making a total of 12 years? Damn close to a generation, don't you think?

[mormont]

Straight from the law. You asked after modern ones after all.

Well, it seemed unlikely that anyone would have medieval figures to hand. ;) But I asked for training time specifically, whereas you seem to have given me total career time to attain a particular rank, which is a different thing.

By the way, every single knight would have at least eight years training. More like fourteen when he is knighted, and another twenty or more before he is considered an experienced officer (high nobility nonwithstanding). Similarly for their serjeants.

I'm going off what we know about Westerosi knights, specifically, but yes, about eight years from page to knight is considered pretty good, a few years more seems to be normal, roughly what we'd expect. But again, this is their total training time, including learning all knightly skills, not just battle command. The Unsullied lack only a very specific area of training, one they'd likely pick up quickly.

As for the second paragraph, that's not far wrong. Of course you need to start with the officers, so that they can teach their subordinates in turn. So, eight years? And still missing one tier of officers in between, let's put them at another four years, making a total of 12 years? Damn close to a generation, don't you think?

Not sure why this is how it would have to work? The training could surely (would surely have to) be simultaneous, and you're making worst-case assumptions (again) and still coming up with a figure that's half of what we generally mean when we say 'a generation', let alone generations, plural.

I'm fairly sure the Unsullied will be commanding themselves much sooner than you think, and that Dany can make satisfactory arrangements meantime.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Well, it seemed unlikely that anyone would have medieval figures to hand. ;) But I asked for training time specifically, whereas you seem to have given me total career time to attain a particular rank, which is a different thing.

True, but it won't get better.

I'm going off what we know about Westerosi knights, specifically, but yes, about eight years from page to knight is considered pretty good, a few years more seems to be normal, roughly what we'd expect. But again, this is their total training time, including learning all knightly skills, not just battle command. The Unsullied lack only a very specific area of training, one they'd likely pick up quickly.

Seven years a page, seven years a squire, seems sensible.

Not sure why this is how it would have to work? The training could surely (would surely have to) be simultaneous, and you're making worst-case assumptions (again) and still coming up with a figure that's half of what we generally mean when we say 'a generation', let alone generations, plural.

Because Barristan is all alone to do that.

I'm fairly sure the Unsullied will be commanding themselves much sooner than you think, and that Dany can make satisfactory arrangements meantime.

They'll need to. Doesn't make them good or even sufficient at it.

[Black Crow]

All true. For pikemen. Though two ranks is still awfully thin. Sacrifice the first guy (and with his armor he has damn good chances to survive and you'll get a gap and the infantrymen are done for.

Absolutely, but spearmen would normally expect to be ranged four, five or six ranks deep, or even more if armed with longer pikes, but the point I'm making here is that an individual knight isn't facing a single spear point but at least six - and maybe more if we're talking pikemen

[pettes]

Woldn't the horses mere speed cause it to trample over at leat two or Three of the ranks?

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Absolutely, but spearmen would normally expect to be ranged four, five or six ranks deep, or even more if armed with longer pikes, but the point I'm making here is that an individual knight isn't facing a single spear point but at least six - and maybe more if we're talking pikemen

Of course. The ability of pikemen (or spearmen) relies on how deep their ranks are. Because to thin a line will be crashed by pure mass, regardless of the number of spear points. Of course the number of points and the deepness of the ranks is related.

Woldn't the horses mere speed cause it to trample over at leat two or Three of the ranks?

Yes, indeed.

[pettes]

ok so the 8000 unsullied, which is a quite small force compared to the number of westerosi armies would most likely lose to mere numbers because they would be stretched to thin? (unless they stationed themselves in the prices pass or before the bloody gate or other passes like this

[Oafkeeper]

Woldn't the horses mere speed cause it to trample over at leat two or Three of the ranks?

If they were rocket powered and charging into cardboard cutouts, sure.

[Black Crow]

Woldn't the horses mere speed cause it to trample over at least two or Three of the ranks?

No, because the horse usually has more sense than the man sitting on its back and will refuse. Even if it does go forward those front rank spearmen bave the butt ends of their spears dug into the ground. Its the horses that suffer, not the spearmen. And then once they're stopped that's it. I've mentioned Falkirk before, and on the first day at Bannockburn for example the English tried a head on charge at an isolated schiltron. Some of their horses were killed on the spearpoints in the initial rush and then after that the knights were reduced to milling about throwing their lances and maces at the Scots because they themselves couldn't get close. Much the same thing happened at Pinkie a couple of centuries later and there its recorded that the Scots laughed and invited them to come on again. The battle was subsequently lost but not because of anything the English heavy cavalry achieved.

[Universal Sword Donor]

If they were rocket powered and charging into cardboard cutouts, sure.

I'm sure the Northerners who had their hedgehog broken by Gregor Clegane would beg to differ

[Black Crow]

They had first been softened up by archers. Roose Bolton's defeat [or if you prefer, Lord Tywin's victory] on the Green Fork had some very close echoes of Falkirk.

[Universal Sword Donor]

They had first been softened up by archers. Roose Bolton's defeat [or if you prefer, Lord Tywin's victory] on the Green Fork had some very close echoes of Falkirk.

The hedgehog formed after the arrow volley(s)

[Black Crow]

A crescent of enemy spearmen had formed ahead, a double hedge-hog bristling with steel, waiting behind tall oaken sheilds marked with the sunburst of Karstark. Gregor Clegane was the first to reach them, leading a wedge of armoured veterans. Half the horses shied at the last second, breaking their charge before the row of spears. The others died, sharp steel points ripping through their chests. Tyrion saw a dozen men go down. The Mountain's stallion reared, lashing out with iron-shod hooves as a barbed spearhead racked across his neck. Maddened, the beast lunged into the ranks. Spears thrust at him from every side, but the shield wall broke beneath his weight. The northerners stumbled away from the animal's death throes. As his horse fell, snorting blood and biting with his last breath, the Mountain rose untouched laying about him with his two-handed greatsword.

Shagga went bursting through the gap before the shields could close...

This is an absolutely typical account of what I've been talking about. The charge foundered on the spears and it was only the freakish accident of a horse collapsing on to the front rank of the spearmen which opened a momentary gap which the light cavalry exploited.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Key word being light cavalry.

[boojam]

Woldn't the horses mere speed cause it to trample over at leat two or Three of the ranks?

If the horse can get there.

At the Battle of Agincourt the French knights could not get to the bowmen because (1) they could not flank, (2) sharpened stakes and (3) the bowmen went for the horse.

Take away the horse and it is infantry on infantry no matter if it's dismounted knights.

I think this happened in some other battles too.

[hodorisfaclessman]

Woldn't the horses mere speed cause it to trample over at leat two or Three of the ranks?

Nope itd look something like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdlL65LD6I4

[Black Crow]

If the horse can get there.
At the Battle of Agincourt the French knights could not get to the bowmen because (1) they could not flank, (2) sharpened stakes and (3) the bowmen went for the horse.
Take away the horse and it is infantry on infantry now matter if it's dismounted knights.
I think this happened in some other battles too.

Did indeed, which is why latterly English men at arms specialised in fighting on foot rather than on horseback

[hodorisfaclessman]

I'm sure the Northerners who had their hedgehog broken by Gregor Clegane would beg to differ

to be fair ser gergor is a freak of nature , freakish size and strength and covered in so much armour he should move like a george romero zombie

[Pod The Rod]

If they were rocket powered and charging into cardboard cutouts, sure.

Dude do you have any idea how much a destrier weighs?

And at Agincourt, the knights couldn't get to the archers because they were charging across 400+ yds of waist deep mud. Nothing to do with being unable to flank.

[James Arryn]

I picture the Unsullied fighting similarly to the Ancient Greeks in a Phalanx Formation.

Macedonian phalanx is very different from a Greek phalanx. Much longer spears, much less shield, generally much more offensive-minded.

As to the OP, it's important to note 2 factors at play on our perceptions:

1) the western nation most identified with the medieval heavy cavalry charge is France.

2) most of our sources, esp. in terms of historical fiction in books or film, are from the English P.O.V.

Hence it's traditional to treat the heavy cavalry charge as a vainglorious charade only effective against untrained or skittish novices. But that's extremely far from the truth.

First, the couched lance backed up by knight and warhorse was the single deadliest entity in pre-gunpowder warfare. The energy directed/concentrated by the lance point upon a standing man is on a kj level equivalent to being hit by a speeding car. Think about that for a second. (And OT, think about doubling it for knight on knight or joust...astonishingly destructive force.)

The combination of a number of those into a heavy cavalry charge was the most decisive arm of the medieval battlefield. An ironic bit of jumbled history is that battles like Agincourt and Crecy were so famous at the time because they overcame heavy cavalry...that those now serve as the basis for the dismissal of h.c. is an interesting bit of rational gymnastics. Bowman were much cheaper to hire, train and supply than Knights, so those battles did serve to change how warfare could be waged more economically, but they did not actually signal the end of the devastation a h.c. charge usually meant.

Another note: facing a charge of heavy cavalry is absolutely terrifying, and not just for novices. Spearman in that situation shit themselves (literally) so often it became hardly worth mentionng. Veterans of many such battles were still very prone to breaking, and hardened veterans are recorded as saying the sheer terror of the moment never diminishes with experience. Modern tests on simulations show that men facing a cavalry charge commonly see heart-rates accelerate to critically dangerous levels in spite of knowing they are not about to be killed.. The earth literally shakes like an earthquake, the sound is similar to immediate thunder or a relatively close jet engine, and thousands of tons of armored hirseflesh and trained killers coming straight at you at high speed lead by sharp metal is a nightmare come to life. Even if you logically conclude that the pike formation has an advantage, your fight-flight instincts will be screaming at you to run, because theory isn't comforting when death is screaming in your direction right here, right now.

These are all reasons why the heavy charge decided far more medieval battles than any other arm, and it's not even close. There are reasons why pikemen continued to collapse in the face of h.c. long after Poitiers et al.

So don't get carried away with debunking the myth of heavy cavalry, because in large part Anglo-centric narratives have been doing that for so long that a counter-myth has taken hold.