Does Stannis have doubt?

[Bronn Urgandy]

It just means Melisandre has a lucky alibi when they do go to the Wall. "Oh yeah, that's totally what I was talking about this entire time. I just couldn't see it in my fires." Plus, the knowledge of the Others is well-known in Westeros as a fairytale, so you'd think someone on dragonstone would have connected it faster. but no, the "darkness" that Stannis has to fight is always just some vague, unspecified darkness that is really just code for "I want the throne" and never about the actual threat coming.

Yeah, err, right... fairly typical criticism really, though. People expect everyone except their faves to be omnipotent and probably pay less attention to their chapters. People on Dragonstone and Stannis himself do connect the dots, its not like the letter from the NW said "the Others are coming!" It talked about Wildlings.

EDIT; Or this...

He does not love me, will never love me, but he will make use of me. Well and good. Melisandre had danced the same dance with Stannis Baratheon, back in the beginning. In truth, the young lord commander and her king had more in common than either one would ever be willing to admit. Stannis had been a younger son living in the shadow of his elder brother, just as Jon Snow, bastard-born, had always been eclipsed by his trueborn sibling, the fallen hero men had called the Young Wolf. Both men were unbelievers by nature, mistrustful, suspicious. The only gods they truly worshiped were honor and duty.

Seems right. There is a difference between trusting that there is a threat to mankind, and trusting that Mel has all the specifics. Stannis has doubts about AAR, about Mel's visions and claims, but he dares not disregard the entire thing based on those doubts when the cost of being wrong is failing the entire world..

“—is one boy! He may be the best boy who ever drew breath and it would not matter. My duty is to the realm.” His hand swept across the

Painted Table. “How many boys dwell in Westeros? How many girls? How many men, how many women? The darkness will devour them all,

she says. The night that never ends. She talks of prophecies . . . a hero reborn in the sea, living dragons hatched from dead stone . . . she

speaks of signs and swears they point to me. I never asked for this, no more than I asked to be king. Yet dare I disregard her?”

Have you actually read the books? Something like this?:

You will be my Hand. It is you I want beside me for the battle.”

Another battle will be the end of all of us, thought Davos. Lord Alester saw that much true enough. “Your Grace asked for honest counsel.

In honesty then . . . we lack the strength for another battle against the Lannisters.”

“It is the great battle His Grace is speaking of,” said a woman’s voice, rich with the accents of the east. Melisandre stood at the door in her

red silks and shimmering satins, holding a covered silver dish in her hands. “These little wars are no more than a scuffle of children before

what is to come. The one whose name may not be spoken is marshaling his power, Davos Seaworth, a power fell and evil and strong beyond

measure. Soon comes the cold, and the night that never ends.”

You do realise that the main problem is that before they know of the situation up north, they still do not know where this threat is coming from, or what shape it will take? Even the letter from the NW said nothing about the Others. It talked about Wildlings.

To the five kings,

The king beyond the Wall comes south. He leads a vast host of wildlings.

Mormont sent a raven from the haunted forest. He is under attack. Other birds have come since, with no words.

We fear Mormont slain with all his strength.

The only reason why Stannis goes north is because Davos, like Stannis, does not dare to doubt that Mel is right about the coming threat, and brings him the letter. The main reason why Stannis thought that he needs to sacrifice Edric is the above "Is one boy!" speech. He does not know what shape the threat will have, but he thinks that he will need the power of the entire realm to fight it. When Davos gives him the letter Stannis now has a lead, at least a possible direction of what may possibly be a clue. It is a risk all the same that it's really just Wildlings doing Wildling things, but it connects with what Stannis saw, of the ring of torches on a hill in the forest, and the Haunted Forest seems about right.

Stannis is not talking about getting the throne in ASOS when he talks about Mel's warnings, he talks about defending the realm from the new Long Night. He is fighting two separate wars, one for the throne, and one against the coming darkness, with the assumption that getting the former would aid him to fight the latter. The whole Edric arc was the assumption that on the throne he would be better prepared for what is to come, but it was never considered simply because he wants the throne. That is such a poor reading of the text that I honestly can't see how you got there without setting out with a conclusion and ignoring the text that stood in the way...

That bold is pretty standard though.

[LordStoneheart]

Because there was not a single mention of the "real" threat as the real thread aside from Mel's vague "darkness is coming!" stuff. That doesn't mean she knows about the Others. Same with Benerro and Moqorro. They just have some vague words because their religion tells them to hate the darkness. But not even the Westerosi on dragonstone care to say something like "hey I bet what Mel is referring to could be connected with the Others and the Long Night!" Its just "Mel is right, so lets torch this kid."

[Bronn Urgandy]

Because there was not a single mention of the "real" threat as the real thread aside from Mel's vague "darkness is coming!" stuff. That doesn't mean she knows about the Others. Same with Benerro and Moqorro. They just have some vague words because their religion tells them to hate the darkness. But not even the Westerosi on dragonstone care to say something like "hey I bet what Mel is referring to could be connected with the Others and the Long Night!" Its just "Mel is right, so lets torch this kid."

The vision in sthe snow? The cold Stannis felt, a similar sense of foreboding that Bran had in his dream, no?

Davos himself says that Stannis isn't the type to make this shit up, whatever he saw was real. Well, we know it was.

[Mithras]

Because there was not a single mention of the "real" threat as the real thread aside from Mel's vague "darkness is coming!" stuff. That doesn't mean she knows about the Others. Same with Benerro and Moqorro. They just have some vague words because their religion tells them to hate the darkness. But not even the Westerosi on dragonstone care to say something like "hey I bet what Mel is referring to could be connected with the Others and the Long Night!" Its just "Mel is right, so lets torch this kid."

The Others and the LN were the stuff of tales. For most of the people, they were snarks and grumkins. And for the majority, they still are.

“And it will only grow worse. The day may come when I will have no choice but to call the banners and ride north to deal with this King-beyond-the-Wall for good and all.”

“Beyond the Wall?” The thought made Catelyn shudder.

Ned saw the dread on her face. “Mance Rayder is nothing for us to fear.”

“There are darker things beyond the Wall.” She glanced behind her at the heart tree, the pale bark and red eyes, watching, listening, thinking its long slow thoughts.

His smile was gentle. “You listen to too many of Old Nan’s stories. The Others are as dead as the children of the forest, gone eight thousand years. Maester Luwin will tell you they never lived at all. No living man has ever seen one.”

[LordStoneheart]

Not asking for omnipotence. I just think its quite the overstatement to say that Stannis was going to burn Edric to save the world, when the thought process on Dragonstone looks like it was just "Mel says so and she's magic." No connection to tales of the Other and the Long Night until they get to the Wall.

[Bronn Urgandy]

Not asking for omnipotence. I just think its quite the overstatement to say that Stannis was going to burn Edric to save the world, when the thought process on Dragonstone looks like it was just "Mel says so and she's magic." No connection to tales of the Other and the Long Night until they get to the Wall.

Darkness devouring them all. Why do people require absolute specifics?

Mel has survived a poisoning attempt, probably told Stannis about the attempt before it even happened, had two correct visions about the battle of blackwater (she thought one would counterract the other, yes, but doesn't make her visions any less true), she then shows Stannis the flight of the NW in a vision that gives Stannis a chill he can't bare (Stannis is a tough guy, he can handle a little snow), she tells Stannis of an oncoming darkness (a darkness Stannis literally just saw in that vision), Stannis then continues to make her prove it and 3 Kings die because of 3 leeches (i.e she said they would die and then they did), then he tells her he's going to flay her alive if she's wrong, she swears it on her life, this woman who has yet to have a false vision swears it on her life...

Do we need specifics, or is this something worth giving serious thought too while we try to win the war in front of us? Can we really believe its a load of crap because no one said "hey guys, White Walkers!"? Except of course for when they did say "hey guys, White Walkers!" and Stannis got up and made an effort to ready people for them.

[Nyrhex]

Darkness devouring them all. Why do people require absolute specifics?

Mel has survived a poisoning attempt, probably told Stannis about the attempt before it even happened, had two correct visions about the battle of blackwater (she thought one would counterract the other, yes, but doesn't make her visions any less true), she then shows Stannis the flight of the NW in a vision that gives Stannis a chill he can't bare (Stannis is a tough guy, he can handle a little snow), she tells Stannis of an oncoming darkness (a darkness Stannis literally just saw in that vision), Stannis then continues to make her prove it and 3 Kings die because of 3 leeches (i.e she said they would die and then they did), then he tells her he's going to flay her alive if she's wrong, she swears it on her life, this woman who has yet to have a false vision swears it on her life...

Do we need specifics, or is this something worth giving serious thought too while we try to win the war in front of us? Can we really believe its a load of crap because no one said "hey guys, White Walkers!"? Except of course for when they did say "hey guys, White Walkers!" and Stannis got up and made an effort to ready people for them.

Two points:

1. You forget the fact that Stannis pulls a sword and it starts to glow, with increasing power.

2. The letter said Wildlings, both Davos and Stannis made the connection that up north is where the thread is based on Stannis' visions, not Aemon's words.

But hey, we are not asking for omnipotence, right? Just to say specifically that it is the Others returning for a second Long Night. Coming darkness, cold that never ends, that is too vague... a lucky alibi...to a man who talks to his closest and most loyal friend in private about not understanding why anyone would actually want the throne...

[roxWolfox]

Darkness devouring them all. Why do people require absolute specifics?

Mel has survived a poisoning attempt, probably told Stannis about the attempt before it even happened, had two correct visions about the battle of blackwater (she thought one would counterract the other, yes, but doesn't make her visions any less true), she then shows Stannis the flight of the NW in a vision that gives Stannis a chill he can't bare (Stannis is a tough guy, he can handle a little snow), she tells Stannis of an oncoming darkness (a darkness Stannis literally just saw in that vision), Stannis then continues to make her prove it and 3 Kings die because of 3 leeches (i.e she said they would die and then they did), then he tells her he's going to flay her alive if she's wrong, she swears it on her life, this woman who has yet to have a false vision swears it on her life...

Do we need specifics, or is this something worth giving serious thought too while we try to win the war in front of us? Can we really believe its a load of crap because no one said "hey guys, White Walkers!"? Except of course for when they did say "hey guys, White Walkers!" and Stannis got up and made an effort to ready people for them.

Having just re-read her chapter in aDwD, she does admit she gets the visions wrong (twice, I think). She puts it down to a matter of interpretation. Sometimes she gets it right, sometimes she doesn't.

The point is, Stannis has his doubts. I would too, if (as the chosen one, Azor Ahai) it appeared that Rh'llor were trying to kill me. :dunno:

[Bronn Urgandy]

Having just re-read her chapter in aDwD, she does admit she gets the visions wrong (twice, I think). She puts it down to a matter of interpretation. Sometimes she gets it right, sometimes she doesn't.

The point is, Stannis has his doubts. I would too, if (as the chosen one, Azor Ahai) it appeared that Rh'llor were trying to kill me. :dunno:

I think she can get specific details wrong, like with the belief that the vision of Renly's death would stop the vision of Renly smashing Stannis on the Blackwater, a perfectly reasonable assumption in the circumstances, but instead it turned out that Renly's death and Renly's armour and army smashing Stannis on the Blackwater were both true visions. Same with the towers, she says "yeah Easwatch" but it might not be, somewhere will be attacked though.

But with her very impressive track record with Stannis, Stannis seeing it for himself (for Stannis I imaginge this is by far the most important thing), then as he says to Davos, he can't actually dare to disregard her. She doesn't say "it will come exactly here" she says "you need to be ready for this".

I agree, I think he doubts he's the one, after all in that Winds chapter he is perfectly willing to accept that he might die, a believer yes, but believers can have doubts, the best believers have doubts, to not have doubts makes you a fanatic. A fanatical Stannis would believe, as Mel does, that Stannis will win the battle of Ice because he's the god damn hero, Stannis doesn't appear to suffer from hubris, that's for men like Rhaegar (okay okay, we never got in Rhaegars head, I just couldn't resist)

[Hand to King Davos]

He does not love me, will never love me, but he will make use of me. Well and good. Melisandre had danced the same dance with Stannis Baratheon, back in the beginning. In truth, the young lord commander and her king had more in common than either one would ever be willing to admit. Stannis had been a younger son living in the shadow of his elder brother, just as Jon Snow, bastard-born, had always been eclipsed by his trueborn sibling, the fallen hero men had called the Young Wolf. Both men were unbelievers by nature, mistrustful, suspicious. The only gods they truly worshiped were honor and duty.

Seems right. There is a difference between trusting that there is a threat to mankind, and trusting that Mel has all the specifics. Stannis has doubts about AAR, about Mel's visions and claims, but he dares not disregard the entire thing based on those doubts when the cost of being wrong is failing the entire world..

“—is one boy! He may be the best boy who ever drew breath and it would not matter. My duty is to the realm.” His hand swept across the

Painted Table. “How many boys dwell in Westeros? How many girls? How many men, how many women? The darkness will devour them all,

she says. The night that never ends. She talks of prophecies . . . a hero reborn in the sea, living dragons hatched from dead stone . . . she

speaks of signs and swears they point to me. I never asked for this, no more than I asked to be king. Yet dare I disregard her?”

Have you actually read the books? Something like this?:

You will be my Hand. It is you I want beside me for the battle.”

Another battle will be the end of all of us, thought Davos. Lord Alester saw that much true enough. “Your Grace asked for honest counsel.

In honesty then . . . we lack the strength for another battle against the Lannisters.”

“It is the great battle His Grace is speaking of,” said a woman’s voice, rich with the accents of the east. Melisandre stood at the door in her

red silks and shimmering satins, holding a covered silver dish in her hands. “These little wars are no more than a scuffle of children before

what is to come. The one whose name may not be spoken is marshaling his power, Davos Seaworth, a power fell and evil and strong beyond

measure. Soon comes the cold, and the night that never ends.”

You do realise that the main problem is that before they know of the situation up north, they still do not know where this threat is coming from, or what shape it will take? Even the letter from the NW said nothing about the Others. It talked about Wildlings.

To the five kings,

The king beyond the Wall comes south. He leads a vast host of wildlings.

Mormont sent a raven from the haunted forest. He is under attack. Other birds have come since, with no words.

We fear Mormont slain with all his strength.

The only reason why Stannis goes north is because Davos, like Stannis, does not dare to doubt that Mel is right about the coming threat, and brings him the letter. The main reason why Stannis thought that he needs to sacrifice Edric is the above "Is one boy!" speech. He does not know what shape the threat will have, but he thinks that he will need the power of the entire realm to fight it. When Davos gives him the letter Stannis now has a lead, at least a possible direction of what may possibly be a clue. It is a risk all the same that it's really just Wildlings doing Wildling things, but it connects with what Stannis saw, of the ring of torches on a hill in the forest, and the Haunted Forest seems about right.

Stannis is not talking about getting the throne in ASOS when he talks about Mel's warnings, he talks about defending the realm from the new Long Night. He is fighting two separate wars, one for the throne, and one against the coming darkness, with the assumption that getting the former would aid him to fight the latter. The whole Edric arc was the assumption that on the throne he would be better prepared for what is to come, but it was never considered simply because he wants the throne. That is such a poor reading of the text that I honestly can't see how you got there without setting out with a conclusion and ignoring the text that stood in the way...

Good post. The "Is one boy!" speech is one of the reasons I like Stannis. He is trying to make the right decision for the realm, and it isn't an easy one. I also agree with your assessment of his motives. Stannis doesn't want the throne for his own sake, he fights for it to protect the realm. It is the same as his quote to Jon Snow on the Wall, "I was trying to win the throne to save the realm, when I should have been trying to save the realm to win the throne."

He wasn't trying to win the throne for its own sake, he was trying to save the realm, and he believed he needed the throne to do that. Instead, Davos shows him a different path. Stannis should begin to save the realm, and Westeros will follow him. If you save it, they will come.

[Nyrhex]

Good post. The "Is one boy!" speech is one of the reasons I like Stannis. He is trying to make the right decision for the realm, and it isn't an easy one. I also agree with your assessment of his motives. Stannis doesn't want the throne for his own sake, he fights for it to protect the realm. It is the same as his quote to Jon Snow on the Wall, "I was trying to win the throne to save the realm, when I should have been trying to save the realm to win the throne."

He wasn't trying to win the throne for its own sake, he was trying to save the realm, and he believed he needed the throne to do that. Instead, Davos shows him a different path. Stannis should begin to save the realm, and Westeros will follow him. If you save it, they will come.

That is not the same as what I said. Stannis is definatly fighting for the throne because he sees himself as the king, that is law. However, to fight the coming threat of darkness he thinks he needs to be king of a unified Westeros to be better prepared. The fight for the throne by itself is separate from the fight for mankind, but may also be a step towards being better prepared for it. Stannis would not consider sacrificing Edric just so he could be king, but he would if he thinks that he needs to be king in order to be better prepared to fight the coming threat, and to save every child in Westeros, and the world. There is a distinction between the two wars that Stannis is fighting at the same time.

[Hand to King Davos]

That is not the same as what I said. Stannis is definatly fighting for the throne because he sees himself as the king, that is law. However, to fight the coming threat of darkness he thinks he needs to be king of a unified Westeros to be better prepared. The fight for the throne by itself is separate from the fight for mankind, but may also be a step towards being better prepared for it. Stannis would not consider sacrificing Edric just so he could be king, but he would if he thinks that he needs to be king in order to be better prepared to fight the coming threat, and to save every child in Westeros, and the world. There is a distinction between the two wars that Stannis is fighting at the same time.

:huh: Not sure what is different from what I said. Stannis is fighting for the throne to save the realm, and because he thinks it is his by right?

[bemused]

He thinks the throne is his by right.

If the rightful (and just) king was on the throne (that's himself), he could save the realm from all the death and destruction he knows is taking place in the WoTFK. When he gives the "one boy" speech , I think he's speaking of the political mayhem that follows Robert's death.(Knowing the illegitimacy of Robert's heirs.) I agree that at this stage, Mel's warnings are non-specific.

As a believer, Mel probably does have a sense of impending doom (Why look for Stannis to begin with, otherwise?), but I don't think she has a sense of specifics and I don't think she realised the particular threat in the north until Davos read out the letter.(Otherwise, why wasn't she trying to convince him of it earlier?)

She's very prone to misinterpretation of her own visions and even at the Wall , she sees what we understand to be Bloodraven and Bran as servants of the Great Other.. The wights and even the Others are incidental to her religious understanding and dualistic interpretation of the situation. She sees the wildlings as doomed to die out, but it never crosses her mind that this could be due to assimilation, not extinction. This causes her to discount Jon's very rational view of the necessity of and reasons for the Hardhome mission . She sees he can be a help to Stannis, but apparently, mainly as a source of Shadow Babies to send against Stannis' enemies and the agents of the Great Other.

I think Stannis still has doubts, religiously speaking. ( e.g. he knows Lightbringer is a fake; he never displays any of the fervor of Selyse, or the conviction of Horpe). But he has become more and more accepting of visions and magic as the story has progressed. On his campaign, he limits the religious demonstrations of his men (sacrifices) to keep from offending the beliefs of his allies.He would not have bothered, previously. And I rather suspect that following the TWoW "Theon" chapter..

he may be about to accept that magic can be manifested, and no less trustworthy, in his allies' religion as well.

To the degree he has accepted religion, it's like he's moved from atheist to agnostic. His strongest belief is still that he should sit the iron throne. He's come to see the wisdom in "saving the realm to win the throne"... What would he do if it seemed saving the realm meant that someone other than himself or Shireen would wear the crown ?

I'm not sure...

[LordStoneheart]

Darkness devouring them all. Why do people require absolute specifics?

Because he was about to burn a child to death. Call it sacrifice all you want, but he was going to straight up sanction child murder because of some vague words. If I was faced with that decision, I'd want the specifics besides "firecrotch says darkness is coming, and she has a few magic tricks up her sleeve." Then again, if I was faced with that decision, I'd honestly choose my own integrity than some vague threat that a raving religious fanatic talks about.

[Bronn Urgandy]

:dunno:

Meh if you want ignore all that proves Stannis has compelling reasons to trust this womant and makes her prove time and again that she isnt full of shit and stake her own life on it all I can do is roll my eyes in the direction of my screen. I am glad he didnt go this route, since Davos is right, but then its easy to be rightior have "integrity" from the outside looking in when the fates of all the boys and girls arent on your shoulders.

Besides, I am sure I've seen you endorse blood and cheese()apologies if that wasnt you tpough

[OmnomnomPomelo]

I think Stannis is some kind of a dutiful person. He wants the Iron Throne coz he is the heir of Robert, not coz he wants to be the king so fuckin much. He went to save the Night's Watch coz Melisandre told him he's the chosen one and he saw for what Melisandre is capable, also Davos supported this plan if I remember well, so he went there to fight the wildlings. But without Melisandre (or Davos) I doubt he would ever went North. Also he doesn't seem to be believe in R'hllor, etc.

So every time I read chapters in which Stannis is, I always imagine that he's fuckin angry, and he is fed up with everything, but feels it is his duty, so he has to do it. So I don't think he has doubts, he just doesn't give a shit about things and people can't make him change his mind in real.

[The Onion Kniggit]

"I know little and care less of gods, but the red priestess has power"